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Jeremiah, a New Series from B5 Creator, Debuts Sunday
Posted by
chrisd
on Wed Feb 27, 2002 06:32 PM
from the hopefully-jms-has-the-b5-4th-season-editor-handy dept.
from the hopefully-jms-has-the-b5-4th-season-editor-handy dept.
wka writes "This Usenet post, by J. Michael Straczynski (creator of Babylon 5 ), outlines his new TV series Jeremiah . Based on a graphic novel series, it's a show 'about beginnings' after a killer virus has wiped out most of Earth's population, and it premieres on premium-cable channel Showtime Sunday night (regular airings to follow on Fridays). We can hope that the executives who interfered with Stargate SG-1 don't mess up this show."
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"Survivors" (Score:5, Interesting)
Kind of a depressing theme, tho.
Re:"Survivors" (Score:2)
Either way I'm still going to mark this in my Pilot so I don't forget
Doesn't sound promising... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Doesn't sound promising... (Score:2)
My point is, this is not an outbreak-clone, but a post-apocalyptic story that uses a virus as the kickoff. I'm waiting anxiously for it to appear on edonkey2k ;-)
Pretty interesting... (Score:2, Funny)
Haven't we heard of this before? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Haven't we heard of this before? (Score:3, Informative)
And, if you want to get technical, no it isn't. The B5 call to arms/Crusade deal is about searching for a cure that is *going* to wipe out earth if it isn't found.
This is about rebuilding civilization from the ashes after a major catastrophe. Still, many other people have explored this. However, each is does it in a different way, from a different perspective. I hope jms will do it well (though I don't have showtime, so I won't be able to watch it the first time through)
We've heard of this before.. so what? (Score:2)
The idea of a plague is in many films and shows, like in "12 Monkeys", in which the survivors live in a hermetically sealed underground world and go back in time to figure out how it started. In an episode of "The Outer Limits", a time protection organization goes back to prevent a plague, only to discover that they were in fact its source.
I'll be frank, I have ideas that are WAY to the 49th weird, out there. However, until we have some way to get past the funks we're in, folks are going to recycle the same ol' ideas in newer and hopefully more interesting and more realistic forms.
Why not.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Why not.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Because most producers, and indeed, most writers are just too unimaginative to work realism into a series like this.
Just look at Star Trek; the aliens are all humans with ridged heads and various stereotypes, the society is dull and boring, and the people act completely unlike real people.
Sure, you can throw in (Sociopathic|Pychopathic|Weird) (Killer|Assimilator) aliens in and have a few dodgy unrealistic unconvincing space battles (when was the last time you saw an "antimatter" powered ship in Star Trek explode and light up half of space and literally melt the hulls of anything nearby? Hell, when was the last time you saw a quantum-photon-xeon-pentium torpedo that did anything but dent a ship?), and have some sickening ultra-transparent "morality" tales, but at the end of the day it's so phoney that there's not a chance in hell anyone's going to go away from watching it thinking they've really seen what the future might be like, or some idea that could make them think for more than 5 seconds.
There are all sorts of issues that would make for great stuff in sci-fi, but because they require skill and imagination (not to mention a few ounces of clue) they're avoided.
Thankfully, we still have some decent [amazon.co.uk] quality [amazon.co.uk] writers [amazon.co.uk] in [amazon.co.uk] other [amazon.co.uk] areas [amazon.co.uk] of [amazon.co.uk] media [amazon.co.uk]..
[waits to be bitchslapped for dissing Star Trek.. I do like it really, honest]
Parent
To JMS: (Score:5, Interesting)
What was the point of Legend of the Rangers? was it a pilot for an aborted series? Anyway, I will *not* be watching this new series, even though it sounds fairly interesting, and in the past you have delighted me with your story arcs and special effects, and colorful characters.
The reason is the network that's picking this up. I'm not going to subscribe to a general movie channel to watch a sci fi series. This show should be on the Scifi channel. Not Showtime. The best of luck to this latest endeavour. . .
Re:To JMS: (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree. If it's really good, maybe it'll bring in a wider Scifi audience. Looking at it another way, there may not be any room for another competing Scifi channel, but it's also unhealthy putting all the Science Fiction on one channel. The Scifi channel might take it's target audience for granted if they don't have more competition.
True, UPN and others put on Scifi, but the more Scifi the better, I think.
Now, if it's just the case that you won't be buying Showtime for this one program, that's understandable, but complaining because their putting Scifi on a general movie channel? That doesn't seem reasonable.
Parent
Re:To JMS: (Score:4, Interesting)
Most pay TV content that's any good eventually works its way onto a more accessible medium. Heck, even the lousy stuff eventually ends up on DVD in the hope that someone will buy it.
Oh yeah, and the only explanation for "Legend Of The Rangers" that makes sense is that it was a pilot for a new show. Although if they do decide to go ahead with a new Rangers show I hope it fares better than Crusade did.
Parent
Re:To JMS: (Score:2)
If the show is any good it will probably be syndicated like SG-1 is.
I was a big fan of B5 but missed most of the first season because of our local channel that aired it. They never could find a slot for it that worked and moved it around too much for me to keep up. It wasn't until TNT finally picked it up that I got to see them all. Its possible that experience with B5 could have been the common place in many markets which might have led him to shop it to cable and Showtime showed the most interest. I'd like to hear JMS's take though. But yeah, I'm not going to subscribe to Showtime for one show. I already do that with HBO.
Re:To JMS: (Score:2)
The short lived spin-off, staring Lumberg from, "Office Space" as the captain of the Excalibur was, "Crusade". It had potential, but I don't think it was given the necessary production budget to make it worthwhile.
Re:To JMS: (Score:2)
Well, yes and no. The actual spin-off was Crusade, and this was not that. But there is some thought that SciFi might turn Legend of the Rangers into a running series, which explains why it had a subtitle.
Re:To JMS: (Score:2, Informative)
And B5:LR is a potential pilot for a new series, which may or may not get picked up by Scifi... the jury's still out on that...
Re:To JMS: (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Complete creative control
2) Big budget. He could make "his idea" of the show a reality.
And, just to be a karma whore... straight from JMS on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated:
I haven't talked a lot about Jeremiah here because, basically, I haven't had time to put my thoughts together due to the rigors of actually *making* the
thing. But we're now closing in on the premiere, and I figured this might be a good time to start laying out some of the information. (This will, however, be kinda brief because I'm fighting a bit of a fever and intend to go lay down after this.)
The Showtime series tracks the aftermath of the Big Death, which wiped out roughly six billion people, anyone over the age of puberty. It's now 15 years
later, and people have been ridinng on the ashes of the old world for the most part, the available resources slowly declining and running out. It's a moment of transition: either the decline continues, or now that they are adults, people start to rebuild a new world out of the ashes of the old one. The question is what shape will that world take, and who gets to choose?
Our lead character, Jeremiah (Luke Perry) is a wanderer, trying to find out what happened to his father, who disappeared during the last days of the Big Death while en route to a locale specified only as Valhalla Sector. He wants to find out the end of the story. Along the way, he encounters our other lead, Kurdy (Malcolm Jamal-Warner), also a drifter, and the two are thrown together by circumstance into a duo. The two-hour premiere follows their lives, the dangers they encounter, establishes the world of our series, and sets the stage for a new dawn.
Basically, I wanted to do a post-apocalyptic series that wasn't all darkness and grimness...I wanted to tell a story about hope, that this isn't about
endings, it's about beginnings. When the Black Death hit, lots of people thought it was the end of the world. It wasn't. What followed the Black Death was the Renaissance, a new beginning, as our characters face a new beginning.
[JMS continued with an episode list]
Parent
Maybe I'll try it out, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
But it *bugged* me. And it was beyond just the (extremely) crappy dialog, wooden acting and contrived plot happenings -- hell, if it were just that I wouldn't have liked TNG, either.
There was just something about the plot and characters that bothered the hell out of me, especially after JMS started writing all of the episodes. It got so bad that I would occassionally watch, but relied on episode guide websites to keep up with the happenings with the story arc.
Man, B5 bothered me. Yes, I'm aware that I sound a little on the neurotic side.
Re:Maybe I'll try it out, but... (Score:2)
I think that the whole Centauri thing was far and away the best part of the show... the Londo/G'kar relationship, the shenannigans in in the royal court back on Centauri Prime, the mad emperor... Man, that stuff was cool. Too bad my buddy could never see past the hair.
Centauri (Score:2)
Re:Maybe I'll try it out, but... (Score:2)
I think the problem might have been stretched out too much. The storyline just wasn't enough to sustain that many seasons.
Re:Maybe I'll try it out, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
I still think it was one of the best SF shows ever, but I can't help but think they went downwards since the first season, even though the story was supposed to actually start much later.
It seems to me that B5 was at its best before it became an epic story. During the first seasons (the prelude?) the characters were complex and subtle, the politics made sense, the storylines were interesting... you had a great sense of foreboding.
But when the epic started, the characters became complicated and yes, pulpish. The acting quality decreased. All sense of subtlety was lost, which also killed almost all the sense of mistery in the storylines. It seems their ambitious story made them lose control of the narrative.
Parent
Postapocalyptic depression (Score:2, Insightful)
William shatner says hes doesn't understand Star Trek's success. [http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/News/02/22/shatn
Well why should he? Is just an actor. But Gene Roddenberry knew.
Star trek has a very forward view of the future, one where there is hope and success. Based on humanity "working it out", not being "wiped out".
If you want to make a hit, do a show that is connected to the present, that shows the fruits of out labors and dreams, not the failure of them.
Re:Postapocalyptic depression (Score:5, Insightful)
You also have lots of room to explore. What will we try to recreate? Will we still have baseball and soccer? Will Sun Tzu and von Clausewicz still be relevant? Will we have clean water? Countries? How will we communicate with people in the next town or halfway around the world? What happens to religion? Do we use a near-apocalypse as proof that God exists and has spared us, or as proof that God doesn't exist because He wouldn't have allowed this to happen, or do new mythologies spring up built around the darkest days of the End of the World As We Knew It?
The trick will be in doing it right. Bad sci-fi is easy. Good speculative fiction is all too rare.
Parent
Re:Postapocalyptic depression (Score:2)
The problem with the idea of mass destruction and worldwide system-failure is that the "we" you mention doesn't include the viewer. Its sort of like a slap in the face that says "you died" and everything you ever did or were amounted to a pile of dust.
I think war movies are different because the viewer has a historial connection to the story.
To be compelling, a story must have an emotional impact on the viewer. Its hard to care about characters in the far future who have no association with anything real.
The best evidence of this is the stunning failure of the slew of post-apocalyptic movies that have been made.
Re:Postapocalyptic depression (Score:2)
I think that's where he's going. In that post, he made a point of mentioning how the Renaissance grew out of the Black Plague. He sees the Big Death as a similar inflection point in history. This either spurs a new era of growth, or marks the beginning of the end.
Which is why I have high hopes for this series. Plenty of direct-to-video MST3K fodder has been produced about a declining post-apocalypse. I would expect JMS to have a higher standard. After all, we did tell the Vorlons to bugger off. :-) And I, for one, am glad it's on Showtime, and not on Sci-Fi, TNT, or some other commercial-fed network. Pay-TV networks are more willing to take risks, and I can't imagine JMS accepting the deal if it didn't come with the sort of control he expects.
Re:Postapocalyptic depression (Score:3, Interesting)
If you'd actually READ THE ARTICLE, maybe you'd read that this is precisely what JMS is doing. He points to how people thought that after the Black Death, the world would end. it didn't; in fact, the Renaissance followed on its heels.
He wants to show how, after this "Big Death," people discover a chance to re-mold the world into a way that maybe is more of a utopia.
Take the whole world apart piece by piece, look at the lessons learned from the past, and try to put it all back together the right way. That's what JMS says he's after. That's not depressing... that is hopeful.
So I assume this means... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:So I assume this means... (Score:3, Interesting)
I think part of the problem with the fifth season of B5, Crusade, and to some degree Legend of the Rangers, was kind of a too-much-of-a-good-thing syndrome. For example, in B5, [what's her name, the woman commander] gives a nice speech before attacking the Earth fleet, about being death incarnate and all of that. The speech was a bit cliche if taken out of context, but for the situation and the character it worked well. Mostly because through the show, she only gave a few speeches like that, maybe one or two a season. When they happened they were pretty cool, but then there are characters on Crusade that only talk in fancy speeches. It's too much, they lose all impact and end up just being cheesy Shatneresque spewing.
I am sure JMS still has it in him to make a good show, but I think he really needs to go back and watch the third and fourth seasons of B5, and maybe In the Beginning, and see what the balance was that really made them work. Don't just take the best bits and try to only use those in a show.
Re:So I assume this means... (Score:3, Informative)
The B5-fan in me makes me write this reply:
Crusade sucked because it was _not_ JMS's show. TNT, which had picked up B5 after the dissolution of PTEN (which was responsible for B5 in syndication), also picked up Crusade. Unfortunately, it occured around the same time that TNT decided to "refocus" on its core demographic of 19-23 yo males -- via the ever-popular venue of pro wrestling.
A high science fiction show, like Crusade, doesn't exactly fit terribly well with that target audience. To correct that fatal flaw, the TNT execs began pushing JMS to add features into the series, and they exercised much more creative control than was appropriate for even network executives.
All of the Crusade episodes before "Racing the Night" were specificially ordered by TNT to "introduce" viewers to the series -- JMS's plan was to begin the series in media res. The SciFi channel is airing the episodes in a "mostly correct" order, as sanctioned by JMS, but the TNT-ordered episodes are still lin there.
The uniform switching, by the way, was also a result of the TNT meddling -- any episodes that have the cast wearing uniforms seen in Racing the Night would be JMS-originals.
As related to Jerimiah, JMS has said that he will never, ever do a series again when he does not have near absolute creative control. When announcing the project, he said that he was happy to work with Showtime because they don't have the limits that network TV imposes on him (so this might be bad news for anyone relying on scifi/network syndication). So far as I've seen him write, he's had no creative issues, and it's his series.
Re:So I assume this means... (Score:2)
Thanks, that answered many of my questions. I can certainly see how somebody could have committeed Crusade to death. I can just see the spec sheet now: (semi-)attractive female alien character, (semi-)evil corporate guy, potentially-cool but way overdone guy, etc., the Vorlon ambassador guy with the mysterious past was popular, so every character should have a mysterious past!
The characters in B5 started out a bit 2-dimensional, but I think that was on purpose. As the motives for all of the characters became clear they took on much more depth, and of course the characters changed in response to the changing situtations, etc.
B5 and H. Ellison (Score:2)
based on belgian comic (Score:3, Informative)
Sitting at the fire (Score:5, Insightful)
Answer: The writers. It's all about the writers. It's always all about the writers. It's about the writers remembering one simple thing: the people sitting around the campfire asking the bard or shaman, "Tell us a story. Tell us a story about noble kings and fearsome battles and tender loves. Tell us a story about ourselves, our secret fears, our greatest hopes. Tell us a story.
I'm not an SF fanboy, but I do love good SF. There's so little of it about. JMS loves good SF too, and it shows in his storytelling. JMS also loves history, Scripture, legend, fable, and humanity. Humanity most of all. He once said
I am sitting eagerly by the fireside, awaiting any tale JMS wants to tell. Because when he's good, which is usually, he's one of the finest storytellers of our age.
Re:Sitting at the fire (Score:2)
It's so bad now I find it hard to fathom why they continue it.
"So I cannot forgive" (Score:3, Insightful)
An incomparably finer storyteller in a different age once wrote some words which JMS should take to heart, they start like this: "The quality of mercy is not strained..."
(Oh, and one more thing: "one of the finest storytellers of our age"? Your judgment is abandoning you, Bill. Just because he's an atheist doesn't make him a good writer. And anybody who could write "Thirdspace" isn't that fine a storyteller.)
Re:"So I cannot forgive" (Score:3, Insightful)
I stand by my assessment of his skills as a storyteller, however. We're talking about writing for television, telling a story in four 12-minute blocks once a week, twenty-odd weeks a year, for five years. Aaron Sorkin is the only other writer I can think of who does it as well, and he's getting his material from the Washington Post.
He gets no special credit from me for being an atheist. Where he does get credit is for embracing faith, spirituality, and religion in his stories and characters.
I'm neither a writer nor an English literature major, but if I were to try and pick the one element that puts JMS (and Sorkin) at the top, it is their understanding of resonance. They (like you) refer to Shakespeare, Scripture, myths, and so forth. Those familiar with the references are rewarded by a much deeper understanding of the characters and stories. This is where writers like Brannon Braga (gack!) fail - they don't have the education and background in literature and end up relying on formula.
In the end, it's all a matter of taste. I like JMS. I like Sorkin. I loathe Braga. I also like A&W Diet Root Beer, so what can you say?
So what could we get rid of? (Score:2)
RIAA and ICANN. Can certainly do without them!
Any other (light-hearted) suggestions?
SciFi and Hormones... (Score:3, Interesting)
Some twenty-something executive at MGM, who retired as a teen-something executive at MTV, decides what "SG-1" needs is to off the geek and replace him with hot bods to make the pubescent crowd stay tuned. The last season of "Earth, Final Conflict" has been so nasty it makes peoples brains bleed. The last couple seasons of "Voyager" had degenerated into some kind of soap opera that just happened by chance, to be located somewhere in the galaxy other than Earth. What do all these things have in common? The same push to shift SciFi into some kind of primtime porn-light... all that's missing is the Ka-Chunka-Chunka music... Think about it... silly plots, no cohesive threads, flat acting, and lots of sexual titillation. Of course since it's aimed at young'ens, you got to keep the titillation to just pokes and peeks (you don't want the religious folks chasing you with torches and pitchforks), but the innuendo still lives.
I am so sick and tired of people doing stupid shit by rote, like there is some kind of magic in the act, without thought or consideration to impact or consequence. Screw with a good show to kick up the pimple demographic and oops there goes the adult and women viewers! Oh, so sorry! Take the brains out of a show, destroy the entire freaking premise, and make it about some foxy chick battling scantily clad sexy aliens. Scuse me while I puke...
The worst is a whole spate of new shows (most of which were thankfully stillborn), that didn't even bother to suck the brain out of a decent show, but just started off as a sexy SciFi/Fantasy babe doing whatever... They're not even waiting till they've suckered in a crowd of viewers now, they're just going straight after the pimply demographic.
I'll watch the first few episodes, beause I like to give folks an even break. However, I expect the producers of this show to give me something worth staying for. Something clever, thought provoking, a whole lot more than the tripe that is currently aimed at socially challenged pubescent geeks in dire need of a suitable sexual targets upon which to fixate. Dressing Penthouse Pets up in aluminum catsuits with flashing lights is not my idea of good SciFi...
Then again, who knows this may be just someone else's cup... all ya need is a little KY and some Oxy-Five?
JMS (Score:3, Interesting)
As JMS has said, he's not going the TNT route again, and will never do a show unless he has complete control, which is why he's on Showtime. (Me wonders about why Showtime is screwing over SG-1, though.)
The Jeremiah characters and story line (Score:3, Informative)
JMS badly needs an editor (Score:2, Insightful)
Since then we had
- Angstmaster-2000 telepathic poets in space actually called Byron (start of B5 Season 5)
- Crusade, with special effects *worse* then then those available in computer games at the time. Oh and Technomages. Shudder. One of those shows not so much cancelled as dragged out the back and put out of our misery.
- The Legends of the Rangers Tae-Bo Weapons System, and a moral creed lifted straight out of "Galaxy Quest" (NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!)
Give him a strict budget, some different writers and a pre-planned polished storyline, and he's fine.
Let him run free, and it's a disaster. I call it FrankHerbertitis (Frank Herbert + John Campbell [ed] = Dune. Frank Herbert on his own = Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune...)
On the bright side, at least we have Gene Roddenenbury back, in $pirit if not in flesh...
Unfortunately.... (Score:2)
I notice we've managed to
Non-Showtime access? (Score:2)
Read closer (Score:5, Funny)
Your pain is only beginning.
Parent
Re:The name (Score:2, Informative)
Stargate
Outer Limits
Total Recall
off the top of my head...
Re:The name (Score:5, Informative)
Besides being the 85th most common name in 2001 (as mentioned by someone else), Jeremiah is also a prophet of the Old Testament. Quoting liberally from The Prophet Jeremiah [huji.ac.il]:
Not really hard to see a connection to the show's theme, is it?
Parent
Re:It is good hearing but... (Score:2)
Cool, Twirlip of the Mists is on Slashdot! =)
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Re:They scheduled it specifically to be annoying.. (Score:2)