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Segway Getting Real-Life Tests

Posted by timothy on Thu Apr 25, 2002 07:07 PM
from the life-is-grand-when-you-own-lobbyists dept.
EReidJ writes: "washingtonpost.com (no registration required) has an article on real-life use of the new Segway scooters, including an update on some of the safety issues and where state laws currently are with use of the Segway. (20 states have specifically passed laws to allow the Segway on sidewalks.) Interesting read."
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  • Yeah but.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kwishot (453761) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:09PM (#3413029)
    Those of us in the northern portion of the country are still screwed. Here in Wisconsin, these things would never work on an icy sidewalk.
    Anyone try riding a bicycle on ice?
    • Even in milwaukee where you are required to shovel within 24 hrs...there are still places with to much snow for a segway, look at it, it has almost no ground clearance. The tires a large enough that tall bumbs, think like speed bumb, may not be a problem. But snow or tall grass, even with rock hard dirt, would be a problem.
      I would counter your thought of a bike on ice...the way the segway works with gyros(I think, never looked at tech specs of it) it might behave better on ice than a bike...it also has a much lower center of gravity, which would also help on ice. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be really usable on ice, but I bet it would be better than a traditional bike.
    • Anyone try riding a bicycle on ice?

      You need to take a trip to the ICEBIKE website [enteract.com]....

      I rode through the Michigan winter this year. It was a pretty mild winter, and they're pretty fast to clear the roads around here. But it is possible to ride under those kinds of conditions--go very slow, and be very sure you know how much turning/braking you can get away with before you skid!

      Oh, and get some really, really good protection for your extremities--the rest of your body will stay warm from the exercise, but those fingers can get cold fast....

      --Bruce Fields

      • Actually some people are crazy and put studs on their motorcycle tires (mx style motorcycles, mind you) so that they can ride in the snow. Heh..thats what snowmobiles are fow =)
                • Not at this moment, but Wisconsin is definitely one of those places that has HUGE weather changes in very short periods of time. Example: last week Tuesday had a high of 89 here in Milwaukee. This week it was in the 30s.
  • segway seems too big (Score:4, Interesting)

    by iocat (572367) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:10PM (#3413032) Journal
    The Segway seems cool, but it doesn't seem like sidewalks are big enough for it. Imagine 200 college kids with jogging strollers (to give an idea of the size) all trying to go somewhere after class.

    An amazing technological achievment no doubt, but I'm worried about the practicality.

    • Your college needs bigger sidewalks. Ours are huge (not to mention 6 feet deep so you can drive cars on them). But I definetly see how this could become a problem - it's bad enough for walkers, bikers, and cars to get along; now we're going to have conflicts between four main types of transportation.

      I personally wish it could enclose your whole body. Then I'd feel like a tank, although I'd be missing the live ammunitions.

      F-bacher
  • by Anonymous Coward
    at toll free 800-544-3746 or local 818-882-2878. Call them and find out the details. :-)

    It even has a feature where you can key in your ZIP code and it will give you the nearest dealer, and ETA for shipment (avg. 6 months or so). You can also call to be put on their mailing list.
  • Broken article link (Score:3, Informative)

    by alexburke (119254) <slashdotmail@ale ... D.ca minus punct> on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:12PM (#3413040) Homepage
    This one [washingtonpost.com] should work better.
  • Safety & crowding (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The Rolling Blackout (556170) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:12PM (#3413045)
    Well, the article mentions this a bit, but I was thinking:

    Aren't some sidewalks (NYC, SF) crowded and dangerous enough as it is, as far as bumping into people and such?
    Imagine making those everyday collisions with fellow 'pedestrians' when one of you is moving at twelve and a half miles an hour. I foresee dislocations, damaged merchandise, and god forbid one of these cops happens to do one of those fruit stand smash-ups so popular in the film industry.
    I'm all for a new, efficient means of transport, but these things need their own lanes of travel, like some cities have provided for bicyclists.

  • In my hometown, and older woman was killed when hit by a mountain bike. In fact, this has happened multiple times. And mountain bikes are not allowed on the sidewalk. Segways are heavier and faster than mountain bikes, this just seems really dangerous to me.

    Websurfing: The Next Generation - StumbleUpon [stumbleupon.com]
    • They seem dangerous to me too, but not as dangerous as moutain bikes. For one thing, this seems more like a 'stop and go' vehicle as opposed to a 'go and prepare to slow down' vehicle like a mountain bike. Slowing down for a turn, for example, is no big deal. The Segway can just pivot, unlike a bike.

      Being electrical vs. pedaled means that somebody piloting one of these machines is less likely to value their constant speed. A bicyclist has to start pedalling again after slowing down to make up for lost momentum. I think this is the cause of some unnecessarily risks/maneuvers.

      Again, I'm not saying that it's totally safe, I'm just saying it's different enough that it's possible that it'd be allowed. Personally, though, I think sidewalk travel with these devices should be capped to roughly the speed of soembody walking past. If they were to implant the proper indicator on the housing, one could be fined for going too fast on a sidewalk. (i.e. put a light that turns on when the device goes faster than x mph.)
    • All modes of transportation have dangers. I mean, how many people are killed by automobiles every day? The real question for society is: are we better off with or without fast and convenient transportation? So far we have already answered with, and I expect that to continue.
  • by naoursla (99850) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:13PM (#3413050) Homepage Journal
    As I understand it, you move forward by leaning foward. The segway moves forward to stay underneath you which keeps you from falling over. Like walking, it is a controlled fall. But there is also a built in speed limit, so if you lean forward too far (trying to go faster) the Segway would not be able to keep up and you would keep leaning farther until your face meets the sidewalk (presumably while going around 12 mph). Does anyone know what keeps it from doing this?
    • by emmons (94632) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:26PM (#3413142) Homepage
      It senses you trying to do it the first time and lets you fall flat on your face. After you do it once the problem mysteriously goes away. (for some people it takes more than once though- these special cases are called "morons")
      • Wow, thats interesting. I guess I just assumed that it you threw yourself at the ground fast and hard enough using this, you had a better chance of missing it. Seemed like a good way to learn how to fly. Hey, it worked for Arthur Dent.
    • The segway moves forward to stay underneath you which keeps you from falling over. Like walking, it is a controlled fall.

      Actually, what you do when you fall is just "miss" the ground. At that point you just sort of take off and start to fly...but don't think about it too much.

      Oh, and remember to bring a towel ;)
    • by perky (106880) on Thursday April 25 2002, @08:48PM (#3413517)
      I've heard about this invention called the bicycle. As I understand it, you steer by leaning to the left or the right. The bicycle tilts sideways to stay underneath you which keeps you from falling over. Like walking, it is a controlled fall. But naturally the turning radius is limited, so if you lean too far (trying to turn faster) the bicycle would not be able to keep up and you would keep leaning farther until your face meets the sidewalk. Does anyone know what keeps it from doing this?

    • It probably gives a tiny spurt of speed, just enough to lean you back the other way, then slows you down. That way you could never sustain a speed above 12 MPH. In fact it could keep your center of gravity from ever travelling faster than 12 MPH if it was careful.
      • by seanadams.com (463190) on Thursday April 25 2002, @08:32PM (#3413457) Homepage
        the Segway pushes back, powered by the internal gyroscopes

        This is wrong. It's the WHEELS that move the segway and keep it upright.

        The gyroscopes are tiny little sensors that detect rotational accelleration. To understand this concept, imagine a toy gyroscope - the kind enclosed in with a wire frame. As you rotate the frame around the axle, the wheel inside continues to spin at the same speed. If you were to continually measure the speed of the wheel relative to the frame, you can determine which way the frame is turning and how fast.

        It's not like the gyroscopic action of a motorcycle wheel keeping you upright. If that were the case, segway would have to be incredibly big, heavy, and power consuming.

        The gyros in the segway are no doubt piezoelectric - I'm not sure exactly how those work, but it's the same basic idea. They're about 1 cubic inch in size.
  • ...sidewalks (Score:3, Interesting)

    by magicslax (532351) <frank_salim AT yahoo DOT com> on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:13PM (#3413052)

    In states that haven't explicitly allowed these bugges on the sidewalks, can you use them in bikelanes? What conditions does your vehicle need to meet to be a bike? How about a moped or something of that nature- open, wheeled, anything else?

  • by MobyDisk (75490) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:13PM (#3413053) Homepage
    But I like this one the best:
    "...even traveling at 12.5 miles an hour, the virtual laws of physics say they won't be able to stop on a dime."
    Could someone who knows virtual physics tell me which law relates mass, velocity, and dimes?
  • by jimmcq (88033) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:14PM (#3413056) Journal
    Popular Science also has an article [popsci.com] that has a mini-interview with one of the mail carriers who put Segway through a real-life test for 30 days.
  • by Jeremi (14640) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:14PM (#3413057) Homepage
    Here we have a machine that goes 12MPH, about the speed of a bike. Perhaps we should be riding these in the bike lane, not on the sidewalk.


    (and before anyone whines about their city not having enough bike lanes... here is yet another incentive to add some)

  • by alouts (446764) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:15PM (#3413062)
    After all the "No Skateboarding/Bicycling/Rollerskating" signs I have seen around various towns, why would so many cities specifically allow these things on sidewalks by passing laws saying so?

    Is it all just a load of local lobbyists pressing the city councils? It seems to me like there's enough hype/marketing here to choke a whole herd of horses.

        • by Paul Komarek (794) <komarek.paul@gmail.com> on Friday April 26 2002, @12:46AM (#3414295) Homepage
          As a cyclist and driver, I claim that bicycles belong on the road because bicyclists most often don't act like pedestrians. As a driver, you need to treat a bicyclist on the sidewalk as another lane of traffic because bicycles can move fairly fast (as opposed to pedestrians, who *can* stop on a dime ;-). This "extra lane" is dangerous because it is unmarked, unofficial, and often forgotten. Even worse are bicyclists on the sidewalk who want to turn left across traffic. There are also problems with pedestrians sharing a sidewalk with bicycles, because of the often wide difference in speed.

          A cyclist in traffic behaves much more like a car, and is easy to predict. As a driver and a bicyclist, I have no problem with a bicycle slowing traffic down. It's much safer and less stressful for everyone.

          -Paul Komarek
          • It's much safer and less stressful for everyone.

            Except for that line of 50 cars behind your bike-pedaling ass. They're all blowing veins in their foreheads because the goddamn speed limit is fucking 55 goddamn miles per hour and some SHITPOT on a fucking mountain bike is in their way when they just want to get home so they can drink a glass of bourbon and watch some Letterman, for christsakes, is that too fucking much to ask from you kids these days on your GODDAMN MOUNTAIN BIKES and your FUCKING RAZOR SCOOTERS and your DAMNED ROLLERSKATES, when all I want to do is finish my fucking commute and see if maybe I can get a piece of tang from my wife who's been all, "Oh, it's that time of the month and anyway I have a headache and feel all bloated" when I know goddamn well that her last period was only two weeks ago and there's no Playtex wrappers in the bathroom trashcan besides, and the damn kids are all whiny about how mean I'm being when I ground them because they didn't do their goddamn homework again, and then they start telling me all about how when Uncle Steve comes over during the day to visit Mommy that he's much nicer than I am, and then I have to go back into the bedroom and there's my cheating tramp of a wife on the phone -- with STEVE, Steve my best friend for nine years and I took his dog to the vet when it got hit by one of you goddamn CYCLISTS and bled all over the brand new top-grain Italian leather interior, Steve who was the best man at my wedding and helped me cover it up when Tommy Myers OD'ed at the bachelor party, and now he's on the phone with my GODDAMN WIFE and I know what I have to do, which I is why I kept my pistol all nice and clean and loaded in the first place, and when that first round explodes forth from the barrel, all pyrotechnic magic and cordite, it's like the first time I was ever with her and I couldn't control myself and it was all over before she even had her blouse unbuttoned, for christsakes, and now she's dead in a puddle of blood and I'm screaming into the phone, "Did you hear that, Steve, old buddy OLD PAL?! I'm coming for you next!"

            On second thought, maybe I'll just stay at work and put in a little overtime.

  • by Mad Bad Rabbit (539142) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:16PM (#3413066)
    Anyone else suspect this'll become a new Xtr3me Sp0rt,
    as soon as Segway prices drop to the $300 range ?
  • "These weigh 69 to 95 pounds, depending on the model, can carry a person up to 250 pounds plus cargo up to 75 pounds. With that much mass, even traveling at 12.5 miles an hour, the virtual laws of physics say they won't be able to stop on a dime."

    Apparantly, we've been scammed by educators everywhere.
  • by dfenstrate (202098) <dfenstrate@NOspAM.gmail.com> on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:19PM (#3413085)
    I'm a Mech-E student at the University of New Hampshire, just 40 minutes from Segway's and DEKA's headquarters, and we just had a demo here the other day by some of the engineers who work on it.

    I must say, I was impressed.

    First, if you're riding a segway at it's top speed of about 14 MPH, you can stop in about 15 feet- a runner going that fast takes about 20 feet to stop.

    Second, the junior engineer there, a year out of UNH, made a point of running over the senior engineers toes many times. No injury, he was walking around fine.

    Third, he also made a point of running into the senior engineer a number of times. Getting hit by one of those things is no worse then getting hit by someone who weighs 75 pounds more then you do.

    It turns on a dime, stops and starts quick, is highly manuevarable, and very easy to use- they let a couple of my proffessors check it out. I wouldn't have any problem sharing a sidewalk with it. It has a number of stopping, size, and manuvering advantages over roller skates and bicycles, wich aren't allowed on most sidewalks.

    That being said, it looks like an amusing toy with some very good aplications, but I don't think it's going to revolutionize transportation outside of a few circles.
    • by bfields (66644) on Thursday April 25 2002, @08:24PM (#3413420) Homepage
      First, if you're riding a segway at it's top speed of about 14 MPH, you can stop in about 15 feet

      On a street, where you have rules about right-of-way, and where you can count on people to *look* before they enter traffic, that sort of stopping distance is fine. On a sidewalk, where anyone in front of you can change direction on a dime, where people can appear from corners or doorway with no warning, it's a disaster.

      a runner going that fast takes about 20 feet to stop.

      14 mph is about a 4-minute mile, right? Isn't that pretty close to a flat-out sprint for the mortals among us? Would you really feel safe sprinting on a city sidewalk on a regular basis?

      Getting hit by one of those things is no worse then getting hit by someone who weighs 75 pounds more then you.

      Actually, getting hit by a runner 75 pounds heavier than me who sounds extremely unpleasant. Not something I would want to be happening on a regular basis on the sidewalks in my town; would you?

      Collisions with motor vehicles are also going to be a problem: note that you do *not* escape conflicts with cars by riding on the sidewalk. Instead, every driveway and intersection represents a potential conflict with a motorist, and motorists are *not* going to be looking out for people moving at high speeds on the sidewalk. (Think about where you look when you pull into or out of your driveway--would you see someone approaching from the wrong direction on the sidewalk in time to avoid a collision?) This is the reason that, by some estimates, sidewalk cyclists have double the accident rates of road cyclists. The same principles apply to segway users.

      Sounds like the Segway people have a pretty good line; perhaps I shouldn't be so amazed that they're getting away with buying this kind of legislation. But they really need some opposition. Here's one summary of the issue from the point of view of pedestrian advocates [americawalks.org].

      --Bruce Fields

        • Any special reason why you're convinced that lots of Segway riders will be suicidal enough to do 14 MPH on a crowded sidewalk?

          Yes; go to any university town and watch the students on bicycles. They're doing those kinds of speeds and faster, on crowded sidewalks. This is the reason that some cities ban cycling on the sidewalks downtown. I agree, you'd think the cyclists would be smarter than that, but a bicycle is seductive--it's *hard* to slow down to wobble along at a walking pace when you know you could be gliding along at 15+ mph.

          I think they must be convinced somehow that nothing too bad can happen to them, no matter how they ride, as long as they stay on the sidewalk--until the day when they find themselves flying across the hood of a car driven by someone who (not suprisingly) didn't see them while making a left turn across a crosswalk, at which point their life flashes before their eyes, and they ditch cycling, go buy an SUV, and live the rest of their life encased in a big steel security blanket.

          Somehow I think we've all accepted this idea that "sidewalk == safe" and "road == dangerous" and in doing so we've lost our ability to reason sensibly about traffic safety.

          --Bruce Fields

    • by ndinsil (454614) on Thursday April 25 2002, @11:41PM (#3414151)
      First, if you're riding a segway at it's top speed of about 14 MPH, you can stop in about 15 feet- a runner going that fast takes about 20 feet to stop.

      I'm curious as to where you get that "20 feet" number. Curious enough, in fact, to step outside for a quick drill... From a speed of around 14 MPH (about a 16 second 100 pace) I stopped in 5 feet. Of course, I knew when I was going to stop so reaction time didn't come into play, but assuming a moderately slow reaction time (0.2 seconds) at that speed that only adds 4 feet. To be sure, stopping that quickly puts some undesirable stress on a person's legs, but in a panic-stop situation that's not an issue. So don't dismiss the human body too quickly.

  • I don't want to come off as a morbid bastard, but how well protected is a rider during a crash? I mean, if the Segway is controlled with gyros that sense little weight shifts of the rider, in a crash, wouldn't the rider toppling off cause a shift in balance and accidentally cause the thing to tip over the wrong way? And how well do the pieces of the machine attach together -- in a head-on collision, are we supposed to expect the riders to kiss in mid-air, fall flat on their asses with the scooter toppling on them afterwards, or do they just get mercifully impaled by the handle bars? Why are we, as the public, and potentially stupid customers, not informed of matters of such importance, and more specifically, why are there no tutorials on doing donuts with Segways?
  • by Argyle (25623) on Thursday April 25 2002, @07:31PM (#3413169) Homepage Journal
    My company had a demo of the Segway HT and I got to ride one. Quite fun and easy.

    I did however, crash the Segway [pusateri.org] and almost break it.

    The link leads to a page with a 3MB Quicktime movie of the incident.
    • by dfenstrate (202098) <dfenstrate@NOspAM.gmail.com> on Thursday April 25 2002, @08:09PM (#3413349)
      You did not almost break it. You didn't even come close. You can throw the thing down a flight of stairs and it'll work fine.

      In addition to their brutal in house testing, they gave the segway to some army special forces evaluation guys, and had them beat the shit out of it.

      They couldn't break it. And it turns out, the in-house brutalizing Segway did before releasing it was more brutal then the army dished out.

      (From a recent visit by segway engineers to my school)
  • Sinclair C5 (Score:5, Funny)

    by gwernol (167574) on Thursday April 25 2002, @08:50PM (#3413522)
    Here is the spiritual predecessor of the Segway, the Sinclair C5 [sinclairc5.co.uk]. First sold in January 1985 this one-person electric vehicle cost less than $500 and was still an absolute commercial disaster.

    Although superficially very different, the C5 and the Segway try to solve similar problems of personal mobility without being a car or motorbike. The Segway is undoubtably more advanced (and several times the price) but like the C5 is: small (one person, no luggage), exposed, slow and makes you look like a dork.

    I'm not sure I see why the Segway won't go the same way as the C5. I certainly wouldn't buy any stock in Segway.
  • by bluelarva (185170) on Thursday April 25 2002, @08:57PM (#3413551)
    get run over by a car while riding on segway.

    "overclock" it to do 60 mph.

    put a really large tires and ride over other segway crushing it.

    dissect it and puts it's pictures of it's guts online and get slashdotted.

    have their segway malfunction and end up doing a cartwheel on a steep sidewalk.

    do all sort of cool tricks with it like a freestyle bike.

    fall off the thing and get hurt and decides to sue Dean Kamen.

    ride segway while drunk as a skunk and get charged with DWI.

    have their segway run out of battery on the side of the road and have to call AAA to tow it.

    hit a pedestrian.

    hit a pedestrian and run off.

    have their segway tiretracks link them to a crime they committed.

    find their segway minus wheels sitting on concrete blocks on the side of the road.

    steal it.

    get caught trying to steal it.

    track down a stolen segway by using hidden GPS.

    strap a jet rocket and attempt to break segway land speed record.

    ----
    jk
  • by Mandelbrute (308591) on Thursday April 25 2002, @09:29PM (#3413669)
    From the article:
    Ronald Medford, the staff member who made these suggestions, has taken a government-approved sabbatical to work for Kamen's firm, DEKA Research & Development Corp., which created Segway. Medford is the "in-house critic and adviser, having nothing to do with sales and marketing, but only telling us what to do to make products safe," said Gary Bridge, Segway's senior vice president of marketing. To avoid conflict of interest, Bridge said, the government continues to pay Medford's salary ($138,200 a year) and Medford has promised to recuse himself from any product decisions involving DEKA and Segway when he returns to the CPSC later this year.
    So he worked on the approval process, is now working exclusively on the product he approved, and the government (not the company he is working for) is paying his salary. Does anyone else have problems with this? In a lot of places something like this would be looked at carefully to see whether there were job offers during the approval process or other signs of bribery (with the government being stupid enough to pay the bribe). He's not being paid to do his job, he's being paid to be a DEKA employee (his orders longer come from the government)- so DEKA should pay for him.
  • pretty sad (Score:3, Interesting)

    by j09824 (572485) on Thursday April 25 2002, @11:22PM (#3414081)
    I find this pretty sad. The Segway is a neat gizmo, but it doesn't look like very attractive transportation. Bicycles and electrically assisted bicycles are faster, can be used on the road, and allow you to engage in some level of physical activity. Scooters (like the Vespa or Honda) have a much greater range and are about half the price, and they are mature and low-tech. Or you can get a variety of electric scooters, which are quiet and faster as well. The Segway, in contrast, is slow, can't be used on roads, provides no opportunity for exercise, has limited range, and is quite expensive. And, as the article points out, is probably quite dangerous on sidewalks.

    Electrically assisted bicycles like this [electricbetterbikes.com] are in a legal limbo: you can't legally use them on bike paths in many places, you can't ride them as fast as a bicycle, and some variants require motorcycle licenses. Yet, they are suitable and highly efficient for travel and commuting.

    Similarly, innovative scooters like the BMW C1 (a scooter with a secure passenger cell) fail to get approval in the US, even though they passed lots of safety and real-world tests in Europe.

    Yet, a high-tech gizmo like the Segway just breezes through regulatory approvals, probably based on the excellent marketing and celebrity endorsements behind it. First, drivers have to engage in an arms-race with SUVs on the road; will pedestrians now all have to upgrade to Segways in order to use sidewalks safely?

    • by Quietust (205670) on Thursday April 25 2002, @09:19PM (#3413629) Homepage
      "Get laws passed for segfaults on sidewalks"
      Freudian slip?
      • Re:BikeRoads (Score:4, Interesting)

        by bfields (66644) on Thursday April 25 2002, @10:00PM (#3413789) Homepage
        I really hate trying to drive with people on Bikes riding. Here's my issue. I'm in the rightmost CAR lane, and I want to make a right turn. There is a bike lane to my right with a guy that wants to go straight.

        The correct thing to do in this situation is to first merge right (giving cyclists already there the right of way, just as if you're doing a regular lane merge), and then take the right turn. But then some cyclists who think bike lanes are *never* to be used by cars get mad at you. The whole situation is a confusing to everyone, which is why I prefer to just bike on the road and ride like a regular vehicle--then we all understand the rules.

        Separate thoroughfares for bikes would be more sensible than lanes.

        But those separate thoroughfares are still going to have to intersect the regular road system at regular intervals, and getting those intersections right is really important--intersections are where most accidents happen. Try to work out how to have two entirely separate road systems superimposed on each other with safe intersections that don't cause everyone concerned unnecessary delays, and you'll quickly realize it's not worth the trouble.

        Just think of bikes as skinny little cars, and everything will make more sense.

        --Bruce Fields