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Microsoft/HP to Market Crippled Entertainment PCs
Posted by
michael
on Tue Sep 03, 2002 02:22 PM
from the things-santa-should-stay-away-from dept.
from the things-santa-should-stay-away-from dept.
gustywinds writes "CNet is reporting that Microsoft and HP recently announced the details on their Media Center PCs that will be coming out this Christmas season (this used to be called 'Freestyle'). The big story is that these PCs will have anti-copying mechanisms built-in to them -- ie can't burn recorded TV shows to DVD, or even copy and play them back on other PCs. And they are going to be expensive... $1500 for the starter box. Sounds like this thing is going to be DOA. Lots of other PC-based TV recording products that aren't restrictive when it comes to copying stuff goes... Snapstream, WinDVR... And, of course, Hauppauge, nVidia and ATi have products too but their software is pretty lacking..."
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This is a sweet system folks! (Score:2, Funny)
Here! (Score:3, Informative)
Remember: THe consumer must be protected from self (Score:2)
As soon as the consumer is deemed intelligent not enough to lie, cheat, and steal, all the push for DRM will go away. The companies behind this only want whats best for us.
And yeah, I believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Gnomes
Are they taking stupid pills? (Score:2)
Re:Are they taking stupid pills? (Score:4, Insightful)
So we have a bunch of people who are willing to shell out a lot of money to make sure that no one could really make a living building and selling weak-DRM hardware. Any would-be competitors will find themselves completely underpriced, as content owners subsidize the hardware that protects their "property." I think strong-DRM hardware is pretty much inevitable, considering the cash clout of its backers - they can pretty much control the market.
Parent
The X Box isn't crippled? (Score:3, Insightful)
Probably a stalking horse (Score:5, Interesting)
sPh
Re:Probably a stalking horse (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Well, I hope so... (Score:3, Interesting)
Particularly Microsoft - now that the growth if off the PC rose, they desperately need new revenue streams to replace the upgrade treadmill.
sPh
Re:Well, I hope so... (Score:3, Interesting)
Are they? Given that its 2002 and several iterations of products from MS, HP and Samsung have supported MP3, much to the profitability of those companies but we STILL DON'T have any move forward technologically from the RIAA, I wonder how badly they really want to anchor themselves to the RIAAs intrasingence and lack of growth or flexibility?
I'd give you that MS has more in common with RIAA than the hardware vendors, but I'll bet that a lot of leaders at the hardware companies just wish the best they had to do was change the color of their products every 12-18 months and not get their clocks cleaned by their competitors.
Re:Well, I hope so... (Score:3, Interesting)
Customer satisfaction is irrelevant to Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
I would guess that this product is intended to fail.
That was the impression I got from reading the article, too. Consider this snipit:
This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them. And remember, this is Microsoft we're talking about here. They have a monopoly on OSs. They can pretty much do what they want and the customers will be stuck with it. And Apple-heads and Linux-fans, please don't start screaming at me. I hear you. The problem is mainstream America doesn't.
GMD
Parent
I'm not sure you understand. (Score:3, Interesting)
This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them.
I think you're wrong. There's already a power struggle going on for digital rights management, and, if the RIAA can't have their way through legislation or hardware compliance, do you honestly think they won't simply push the crippled-disc idea even further? There will come a day, probably very soon, where watermarked and encrypted (DVD-A) discs are the rule, not the exception.
Microsoft looks to be Covering Your Ass here, and appears to be merely paying lip service to the record industry. Why on earth would they deliberately alienate the consumer?
- A.P.
Re:Customer satisfaction is irrelevant to Microsof (Score:3, Informative)
The problem with this approach (at least as far as Hollywood is concerned) is that both the hardware and the software companies have vested interests in making Hollywood's content available on their platforms. Witness the DVD player phenomenon. Despite Hollywood's protests there isn't a single DVD manufacturer (well maybe Sony) that doesn't have methods that allow for disabling region encoding and the other Hollywood induced crap. In fact, Apex has actually gained a following and an impressive marketshare by making this sort of thing easy to do. Apple also makes a living making ripping CDs easy to do. They even have devoted whole advertising campaigns to this concept.
Microsoft is a somewhat different case. Microsoft has a big enough user base that they are trying to push Hollywood into using their proprietary formats. Their idea is to get Hollywood to use Microsoft formats exclusively, and they promise to protect Hollywood's content if they do. This way you will have to use Windows to view Hollywood content. This isn't likely to work either, however, because there are simply too many legacy devices to switch formats, and (as you said yourself) digital medium is the great equalizer.
Re:Probably a stalking horse (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to be an intern at a research lab of a large technology company. Approximately six months ago, we hosted a large meeting between representatives of this company, and the technical advisors to congress-people regarding digital rights.
Anyways, I can't say much about the details, just in case I step over some confidentiality restrictions. But I will say this...
This group of advisors think that the V-Chip was a great success.
Several of them were excited about the idea of putting watermark signals in video, that camcorders would recognize and refuse to record.
The tech company representative argued that there are existing laws to handle theft, and that theft is a social and educational problem, not a technological problem. But, judging from the faces of the advisors, I would guess that all of them dismissed the idea.
Think about that. Discuss.
Parent
Our modern age ... (Score:3, Interesting)
During our modern age, it has been the reverse where formats have been created that allow copying and wide dissemination of info and companies come along try to stop it (through heavy handed lawsuits) or try to co-opt it or better (worse?) yet offer a competing scheme that requires you pay for it and
Feel free to add as needed.
Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies? Possibly..
When corporations are held liable for employees downloading files then maybe companies might go to buy these as a liability hedge.
A real tightly defined scenario sure.......
Re:Our modern age ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not pleased with the way the future of digital media is unfolding...
DIV/X and post-Napster again (Score:2, Interesting)
I would like to know more about why they've put something into an expensive system that they have got to know is going to kill it in the marketplace. Do Microsoft and HP have ties to the entertainment industry I don't know about?
One thing's for certain -- the future of home entertainment is changing, but the "Media Center PC" is not where it's going.
Samsung Will Manufacture, Too (Score:3, Informative)
The $1500 price is entry-level for the HP model. According to the article, Samsung will also manufacture these entertainment PCs. Who knows, maybe they'll offer the product at a lower price point.
'Freestyle' refers to the version of Windows to be used (now 'Window XP Media Center Edition'), not the actual manufactured boxes.
Also, news.com reports that both HP and Samsung models will be available *before* Christmas season. Apparently even story submittors have stopped reading the articles. :P
Oh cool! (Score:4, Insightful)
This could be fun!
not just the price, but the market (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:not just the price, but the market (Score:5, Funny)
**from the twisted dreams of MS's marketing dept**
Salesguy: And it's a lot like your current computer, but it does less and costs more.
College kid: And it's new and hip, right?
Salesguy: Absolutely.
College kid: Do you take cash?
*************
If I had ever had $1500 at one time while I was at college, I would have changed it into 20's and rolled around in it naked.
-B
Parent
Re:not just the price, but the market (Score:3, Funny)
Sounds like a good way to get the underachieving, lazy, waiting for daddy's job, dishonest, thieving, substance-abusing, parasitic growths amongst the generally upright and ethical student population to knuckle down and start studying for a change.
</flamebait>
But then, if pigs could fly, we'd need much stronger umbrellas.
Karma:Chameleon (sometimes very affected indeed)
MS shooting themselves in the foot? (Score:4, Interesting)
Problem is, if the user cannot transfer their digital content, be it original work, copyrighted audio or video, to their next PC, they aren't likely to upgrade. What will Microsoft do in two years when their current customers will want to upgrade their PC, but won't for fear of losing their digital content? If Microsoft is indeed right in saying that digital media will drive PC upgrade cycles, they are being quite shortsighted by releasing an OS which ties all of a consumer's digital media to their current machine.
Re:MS shooting themselves in the foot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, by moving to a subscription model for the OS, which ties your media to your subscription fee, they can make sure that Joe Consumer forks over however much they want to ask for in subscription fees. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I think this is where MS is headed with this.
Parent
Wait a minute.... (Score:2, Funny)
Producing entire warehouses of dead computers that no one will buy seems quite counteractive to that plan.
Shrug.
=-Jippy
Tastes like shit, more filling! (Score:2)
The sad thing is that it's like the RIAA-sponsored music sites - a project designed to fail.
When HP and MSFT testify that "We tried to sell cripped PCs but nobody bought them" to Congress, Congress' solution will by to make it illegal to buy non- crippled PCs.
If you made boxen at $400 apiece, but can only sell them at $500, would you continue to do so, or would you rather collude with Hollywood to get Congress to make the $500 PCs illegal, so that you can sell the same hardware, crippled, at $1500?
If you're part of the crowd that wants to rant about how capitalism's destroying the world, I'd urge you to make sure you're really talking about capitalism before you rant.
A capitalist (one who believes in a market based in the exchange of goods or money between voluntary participants) would continue to sell non-crippled boxen at $500.
If HP and MSFT get in bed with Hollywood to get Congress to force consumers to buy $1500 crippled entertainment centers, (by banning the $500 non-crippled computers, which consumers seem to prefer), they cease to become capitalists.
Let's think this through (Score:2)
Oh yeah, and I thought it was quite comical that when I pulled up the article about how HP was trying to sell this crap, I got a huge banner ad for Dell.
about $100 sounds right (Score:3, Interesting)
Unfortunately it will probably prevent some little company from getting VC for coming out with a decent version of this. Which is probably the intent anyway.
It is POC for RIAA and MPAA (Score:5, Insightful)
This is NOT DOA, because it is not about PCs or PVRs or multimedia control. It is a Proof of Concept to sell the Digital Rights Management of MS to the MPAA and RIAA. Then the MPAA and RIAA will then use their money to ensure that ALL PCs have a DRM built into them.
While we can whine and cry that "no machine we buy will!!!", It is a non-issue. Dell, Gateway, Compac/HP, etc. will continue to sell their millions of boxes to the various businesses, and Mom & Dad like always. Legislation will pass that requires DRM and those that do not have it will be marginalized as criminals.
This is not the war, this is just the start of the battle. MPAA/RIAA make be seeing they will never get another DMCA, so they need to control "just content". MS sees the opportunity to manage every piece of electronic data on the web. 95% of the OS market is child's play by comparison.
The way these things fail is if someone manages to circumvent it in the first few months in a way that every 12 year with a 56k connection can bypass it.
Very sad. (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't an attempt for Microsoft to sell PCs or Windows.
Instead, this is an attempt to gain lobby support from MPAA/RIAA
It all comes back to the Microsoft strategy - once you're locked in, you can complain... but you're still a paying customer...
Re:Very sad. (Score:3, Funny)
Well, look at the bright side: Since it's MS, you can bet it'll be exploitable.
It'd sure beat the hell out of anything Sony'd dish out. Anybody remember that Spiderman soundtrack that had PC stuff on it, but the anti-PC protection prevented it from working? Heh.
Doesn't Anyone Use Computers to Compute Any More? (Score:5, Insightful)
Another one on the list... (Score:3, Insightful)
May you live in interesting times (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing is, I can't imagine that there will be a time when you can't compile and run your own programs because there are just too many developers out there. And if you can compile and run programs you can compile and run xvid codecs. If MS decide to have processors check for xvid etc headers then you can change the xvid headers to something else- put the info fields in a different order etc.
If people can't transfer their home videos to their pc, or their photos or home-made music, they're going to get pissed-off.
In fact, thinking about it, if Palladium is everything we fear, AND it becomes so that you can't even buy loose components that aren't palladium-based, then I don't see how you wouldn't get a huge mega-meltdown-apocolypse as people refuse to upgrade their computers.
It's certainly going to be interesting.
graspee
Re:May you live in interesting times (Score:3, Informative)
Hardware that is "palladium-based" means that it meets the TCPA specification, and the TCPA specification is by definition platform and OS agnostic. IBM has been selling Thinkpads that meet the TCPA specification for about a year now, and people install other OS's on them all of the time. Even if your far-fetched worst case scenario becomes a reality, nothing will stop you from installing Linux/FreeBSD/DOS/CPM/etc.
A better idea! (Score:5, Insightful)
$1500? Twice what it's worth! (Score:4, Insightful)
Shuttle S50 - $300
Celeron 1.8 - $100
256MB DDR - $75
80 GB HDD - $85
DVD (w/WinDVD) $50
Hauppage FM-TV tuner w/ remote - $100
SnapSteam SW - $40
--------------------
$750
It outputs to my TV, records what I want, and I can watch DVD, DIVX, VCD, MP3, CD, etc. PLUS I can watch any recorded show on any moachine on my network. What do I get for the other $750
Re:$1500? Twice what it's worth! (Score:4, Insightful)
ehh looking at the description of the HP version, the answer appears to be:
DVD +R/RW drive, twice the RAM, a better processor, a 200 watt Klipsch sound system, a Ge Force4... and a whole bunch of annoying DRM crap
Parent
HP and Microsoft Revive old IBM Idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Following the IBM lead of many years ago they've created:
This could be very successful (Score:3, Insightful)
- You can make something they want, so that they choose to buy it
- You can make it legally mandatory, either by direct requirement, or by outlawing the alternatives.
Which approach do you think best describes the marketing plan for this product?Turing machines in the hands of private citizens are as dangerous to our current ruling class as were weapons in the hands of the peasants in feudal times. Next thing you know, we'll start having laws ignoring the constitution and restricting our right as individuals to keep and bear arms.
Freevo (Score:5, Interesting)
There are others, like DVR [sourceforge.net], MythTV [mythtv.org], HomeDVR [sourceforge.net]
And there are here [apestaart.org] and here [sourceforge.net]
Really, we dont need another device - a PC will work for this...
You can shove your Convergence up your .... (Score:5, Interesting)
So, lets assume that you'll get close to $2000 worth of computer for your money. My only question is: why?
Do I have to turn in my geek credentials because I don't find TV on the PC all that compelling? I love DVDs on my laptop, and streaming audio and video, but we already have devices that are perfect to watch TV on... they're called televisions!. They have a simple UI and crash far less often than Windows does. We've had a box under the TV recording shows for years... Why does this box have to turn into a full-fledged computer just because we want to record these shows digitally now?
I have a TiVo and love using it, precisely because it doesn't feel like a computer when I'm using it! (Of course, it is -- the fact that I can upgrade the HD and add ethernet myself doesn't hurt, either.) When I want to rot my brain watching TV, I want it to just work, and I don't want to have to feel like I'm using a computer.
I always thought that Convergence meant that all of your dedicated media devices (which may actually be computers, but with a simpler UI) could talk to each other and exchange information, kind of like what Apple is trying to do with its iPod. Microsoft thinks Convergence means that all of your dedicated media devices become computers, running the latest MS OS, and with all of the problems and complications inherent in that. Of course, we know who's most likely to win this one...
Of course, the sad thing is that by making dedicated media devices more like computers and stuffing them chock-full of DRM badness, we'll end up making the actual computers more like dedicated media serving devices, since the same OS will run on both. :(
Re:Well (Score:2)
depends on how you look at it... (Score:2)
having a LARGE variety of programming titles to choose from.
Easy use of your computer.
I am no MS lover, but your comment was definitly over-rated.
MS Windows PCs Really Are Crippled by Default (Score:5, Interesting)
I am no MS lover, but your comment was definitly over-rated.
Their statement was actually quite apropos, though it should have contained a little detail.
As an anectdote, a friend of mine used Microsoft Windows Media Player to rip his music collection, and wondered why he couldn't play some of his music (he'd upgraded his video card IIRC). I showed him where to turn off 'digital rights management' and explained to him why DRM was newspeak for 'digital rights denial' and how the default settings of his OS were designed, deliberately, by Microsoft, to fuck him.
He was quite angry, and while he isn't ready to switch to GNU/Linux yet, he did download a free ripper and started reripping the music he could no longer listen to into OggVorbis format.
So yes, Microsoft is deliberately selling extraordinarilly crippled PCs to the average consumer, not only crippled by the limitations, bugs, and design flaws of their software, but deliberately crippled and broken in addition to all of that.
Parent
Better acronym expansion (Score:5, Interesting)
"Digital Restrictions Management" is more accurate, and has the right letters at the beginnings of the words. :-)
I didn't coin this; it's been floating around for a while, I think. But we would do well to push this term into the mainstream.
Parent
Tsk tsk tsk, peoples.... (Score:5, Funny)
They're "differently abled operating systems"...
Parent
Re:More info - links (Score:3, Interesting)
It's got a big, colorful UI just like TIVO and now can handle recording from listings. (And I believe it works with listings all over the world. It definitely works in Ireland, UK, and USA -- I bet it'll work in Canada.)
ShowShifter is really cool. It uses DivX pro to record, can be programmed to record just like a TIVO, and doesn't cost a penny beyond the initial purchase -- which is quite cheap for what it offers (US$49 for the standard version, $79 for the pro version with DivxPro).
Re:To be fair... (Score:4, Insightful)
Doh! You beat me to the punch on pointing out that it has the same restrictions as a TiVo.
Anyway, while a TiVo is cheaper, you're leaving out the PC functionality. If we go with the price of a comparable TiVo as being $300 (leaving out the subscription fees, though it's possible that Microsoft might include TV listings in their purchase price), that leaves an extra $1200. For a consumer PC sans monitor, that just doesn't seem that bad. Allocate some of the money toward the "integration/convenience factor", and you'll got a deal that I think some people will go for.
I think the major deciding factor will be whether or not people actually like having a PC near their TV. The price and the television capture restrictions are secondary.
Parent