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EMI Customer Relations Tells It Like It Is
Posted by
michael
on Fri Nov 08, 2002 01:47 PM
from the bring-in-da-noize dept.
from the bring-in-da-noize dept.
hype7 writes "The Register is running a story about the most outrageous email sent from a customer services rep at BMI in Germany to a customer who had difficulty playing a copy-protected CD in his CD player. One of the most stunning lines from the translation: "If you plan to continue protesting about future audio media releases with copy protection, forget it; copy protection is a reality, and within a matter of months more or less all audio media worldwide are copy protected. And this is a good thing for the music industry. In order to make this happen we will do anything within our power - whether you like it or not.""
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Oh well. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh well. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Oh well. (Score:5, Insightful)
My conclusion is that the RIAA *KNOWS* they are obsolete. Remember, the RIAA serves a DISTRIBUTION function. Sure, by controlling that function they were able to decide who made music and who didn't and set prices, etc. and build their empire. But at the end of the day, all they are are distributors to get music from the artist to the listener.
Internet serves the EXACT same function. But since both artists and listeners can access the Internet, there literally is no middle man. The function on which the RIAA empire was built on has been made completely obsolete. Well, maybe not completely--not everyone has Internet yet, but in developed countries it's a matter of years before 90%+ of the population can download and burn their own music--if not at home at a local Internet cafe, etc.
So at this point I think the RIAA knows this. I think they KNOW they are obsolete. They have two options: 1) Admit defeat now. 2) Use copy protection, lawyers, and politicians to maintain their empire for a few more years. After all, their empire is worth billions per year.
Yes, the RIAA is going to put itself out of business. But with all their nonsense they might be able to extend their functional lifetime by a few billion dollars. In the end, they're history anyway--they might as well eek out a few more dollars if they can.
I'm just waiting for ONE major artist (Madonna, Phil Collins, Elton John, etc.) to publically refuse to resign with the RIAA and to go to a pure Internet-based distribution system and playing concerts. Once one bails, the RIAA is going to fold like a house of cards. Don't know if we'll see a major artist bail in 2003, 2004, or 2005... but it will happen. It'll be fun to watch.
Parent
Re:Oh well. (Score:5, Insightful)
If the product sucks, you're restricted from using it and your suppliers don't like you, there's going to be trouble. Quite honestly, that business strategy makes some of the dot-com nonsense look brilliant!
Parent
You will (Score:5, Interesting)
or your both of your neighbors and all their children...
People will keep buying music regardless. Their car cd-players, and home cd-players will play them, and if they don't, their new players will play their old CD's.
Consumers are so used to getting screwed into buying "upgrades" to correct home made problems, they won't even blink.
And people won't stop paying for music in the copy protected future anymore than they don't buy macrovision protected DVD's now.
Even if everyone that read
If it is the only way music is being sold, it is the only way music is being purchased. And people won't stop purchasing entertainment.
Parent
The attitude! (Score:5, Insightful)
If this customer service rep was not just a malcontent and really was telling the customer what was passed down from management, BMI is shooting itself in the foot.
Re:The attitude! (Score:5, Interesting)
MS learnt recently that having a shitty attitude doesn't necessarily do you any favours [theregister.co.uk], and if they can learnt then anyone can . . .
Parent
Better customer service.... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:The attitude! (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Paging the Lawyers (Score:5, Funny)
Paging the lawyers from Phillips! Paging the lawyers from Phillips! You need to get off your fat asses and sue EMI!
Whew (Score:5, Funny)
The scary part... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The scary part... (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, we would send around a proposal for how we thought we might do something in the future.
A German colleague would respond with a tersely worded message to the effect of "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If you don't do it this way, it will lead to the end of the company and we'll all be unemployed."
After a while, and after actually meeting many of these people face to face, I discovered that's just their way of saying "Hmm, that's not a bad idea, but maybe you should consider this..."
After reading the letter from the CSR, I realized that this is probably the same situation. It sounds really harsh, but it's not intended to be that way.
There are huge cultural differences between America and Germany, and it's important to try and understand those differences before over reacting.
Parent
Hamburger theory (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:The scary part... (Score:5, Funny)
If overly stringent copy protection means there's one less person in the world listening to Toto cover "House of the Rising Sun", can it really be all bad?
Parent
Music Industry, take note (Score:5, Insightful)
And we will respond in kind.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, their first attempt was defeated by a permanent marker. What will the next one be defeated by? A stapler?
Oh well.. give the RIAA enough rope, and it will hang itself. It's already acting like it's having a nervous breakdown. And with the GOP running the Senate, Fritz Hollings (aka Senator Disney) has no chance in hell of getting his SCCCCCCCCCCA bill passed.
Maybe I should buy some stock in Sanford (manufacturers of Sharpie markers)...
In other words... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't they realize that they more they antagonize the music-sharing community the harder they will work to circumvent the copy protection? Even on the artists that really suck. It's all about principal now.
Re:In other words... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, that's not true. They care a great deal. If they can demonstrate to the US congress (yes, US... no one bothers trying to convice Europe or Asia of these things, as they will generally follow US lead, which may be sad, but is true) that copy protection keeps getting defeated and therefore they are "losing" lots of sales, they will be able to get legislation passed that requires CD-RW manufacturers to build in copy-protection.
Notice that they don't give a flying crap about the largest source of illegal music in the world (mass CD copying). They care that joe average with his PC might be able to get some milage out of their old CDs or listen to music in the car that wasn't purchased specifically for car listening, instead of having to impulse-by the entire CD again. That's a threat, and regardless of how right or wrong it might be, they'll work until you can be shot for doing it.
It's our job to find ways to make our politicians understand that this is not acceptable and that a sizable fraction of their constituents want to be able to listen to the music they bought.
Parent
Re:In other words... (Score:5, Interesting)
I made a comment like that once and somebody accused me of trying to rationalize theft. I got news to all of you who are thinking that: I have purchased a number of games at $50ish a piece. I've never downloaded a game from P2P. I'm not adverse to buying. The reason that the games industry isn't taking so much flack over protection is that they give you ways to preview your purchase. On PC's, you can buy demo CDs or download game demos off the web. On consoles, you can rent games at places like Blockbuster. They know how to treat their customers.
The matter is not that people don't want to pay for their products, it's a matter of making a satisfactory purchase. I cannot take a CD back if I don't like it, I can't rent a CD, and they're trying to prevent me from previewing music on places like Kazaa. Well gee. Why would I spend $18 on something I might like? Letting people read magazines didn't put publishers out of business.
Parent
Arrogant, because they can afford to be. (Score:5, Insightful)
Which isn't to say that a platform can't fail - vis. the Mini Disk. But there's a difference between a platform failing and trying to imagine that simple competitive pressue exists for musical content.
Protest, boycott, lets do something..... (Score:5, Interesting)
Lets do something about this. Something other then complaining and giving up.
Reply to EMI (Score:5, Funny)
You can have my money when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
OH well (Score:5, Insightful)
2) None of it matters, because if one person buys a copy protected CD, does the above, and puts it on p2p, the pee-in-the-pool effect kicks in, and the copyprotection-free version will be around forever.
At odds with the other big fish? (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, considering that most people who buy stuff want it to work anywhere and everywhere, I wonder how long it'll take the general public to simply stop buying, as it's no longer 'safe' to do so..
Especially with some of the new laws in the EU, and the UK being put forward as also written on The Register [theregister.co.uk]. And if people buy even less than they did before they protected the media, who are they going to blame? Perhaps this is a case of things needing to get worse before they get better, and perhaps even be a case of the big recording industries shooting themselves in the foot and crippling themselves..
Malk
Wow. (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone want to take bets on the one straw that will break the consumer's backs?
Personally, I think it will come when people regularly cannot play discs in their cars. Or PlayStations/Xboxen. There's a lot of 'convergence' devices out there. Furthermore, in the car example, many manufacturers are actually using CD-ROM mechanisms in dashboard players simply because they are cheaper and more error-tolerant (except of course, in the case of purposeful errors introduced by the record companies).
Ph33r my mighty analog plug, you slack-jawed marketroid fuckwits.
Where'd they get this stat? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm always curious to find out how they get stats like this. Where do they get the 250 million blank CDRs and tapes number? Sales alone is rather inaccurate, as it fails to account for data and photo CDs, as well as what *could* be considered legitimate backup CDs.
But obviously, all CDRs that are purchased are for the sole purpose of piracy...
Re:Where'd they get this stat? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, This assumes that nobody ever backed up any data, noone saved their work to CD, no digital photographers kept their pictures, no videographers saved threir work to CD, and that the single use for CDrs is to pirate music. The funny thing is, this is a completely garbage statement. All this statement means is that they have no clue what CDr's are used for, and would rather spout off than figure out just how many ACTUALLY are used for music.
I would really like to see someone do a study of just how many CDrs go to data and how many go to music (pirated vs fair-use categories). When someone has some quality data on this, then tell me about music pirates. Until then, quit flapping your lips and work on your study.
Far and away most of my CDs that I burn go to my own content. We have a digital camera, and at full quality, you can fill a CD with photos in a weekend. I regularily backup up my entire system to CDrs. Neither of these has anything to do with music.
Parent
Look back to Lotus & 1-2-3 (Score:5, Insightful)
I think we can look forward to the same with the music industry.
As Mark Twain once said (something like), History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
Whats going to happen (Score:5, Insightful)
2. People can't play these CD's and stop buying new CD's
3. The music business sees the drop in sale and assumes more piracy
4. They encrypt CD's differently
5. Goto 2
It's a vicious circle....
250 Million Blank CDRs (Score:5, Insightful)
There are 250 Million blank CDRs and tapes bought and used this year for copying music in comparison to 213 Million prerecorded audio media.
I'd like to see where these numbers come from. Personally, (yea I know, I shouldn't put my personal anecdotes on top of the population.) I have bought nearly 2000 CDRs for myself and school.
For school, we put our "Publication/School Newspaper" on the CD and give it to students for a keepsake. For my private use, CDRs are a cheap easy server backup format. Toss in a CD. scribble a date and put it on a spindle. If/when I need to roll back my home network server. viola.There it is.
Have I ever used a CDR to copy a commercial Music CD? Yes. Once. I have a Vitamin C CD (It was a gift--honest) and it wouldn;t play in my CD Player. So I ripped it (methinks there was copy protection on it) and burned it to a CDR. Viola. Now I can listen to the CD that was rightfully mine to listen to.
When The music industy pays to upgrade my listening equipment so that I can listen to their music, then maybe I'll consider not complaining.
Open Letter to BMI (Score:5, Insightful)
While you are busy copy protecting your stable of has-beens, boy bands, and warmed over focus group music, I will be investigating the wonderful world of non-label bands.
For every over-produced single that your 'A&R' people put out there for the clueless masses, there are two *albums* by talented, REAL musicians who believe in what they do.
Sure, they don't have the marketing power that your big company has, but while you are lumbering around trying to pin the tail on the donkey, you will find that the party is over and you missed it.
I will continue to seek good music that I can legally download, make good music that others can legally download, and push good music that everyone can legally download.
There is plenty out there. It might not be as easy to find as your latest Clear Channel release, but it's there. You are over. Your time is done. You won't see me at the wake.
I'll be listening to music.
Sincerely, teamhasnoi
I am extremely glad to hear this. (Score:5, Funny)
I mean.. that was the whole purpose of the tariff in the first place. To give back some money to the record labels that were losing money from dubbing of CDs that people would buy otherwise.
What are the odds of the tariff being eliminated? I'd say about the same odds of the GST being eliminated.
Good think Mozart is not alive today. (Score:5, Funny)
We can boycott and protest all we like... (Score:5, Interesting)
As long as an item, be it copy-protected CD, DVD, PS2 game, etc.. is sold at Wal-Mart, Target, and the like, a boycott will never succeed. If all of us stopped buying CDs tomorrow, Cletus T. Bohunk would still go out and buy his Fullscren copy of Spider-Man. He'd still by the Allman Bros. Greatest Hits (no offense to fans), and its not going to matter if it works in his computer, because he doesn't use that to play music like we do! He puts it in his $49 DVD player and listens to it through his 20 year old Magnavox TV speakers. Or he puts it in the $20 boom box he also bought from Wal-Mart. While I agree that if CDs stop playing in cars, there will be a huge outcry from the public, calling for boycotts simply won't work in such a small community as ours...
(Yes, I realize it isn't a SMALL community. But in the grand scope of US vs. the population in general, we don't measure up.)
--WE-- don't matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can dig your music. Most of the people who write about their fav bands like indie stuff, or local, regional bands. That's cool. I don't think too many Slashdotters have front row tix for Pink or Justin Timberlake. Those are the acts that sell the majority of the CDs. Try explaining to a 12 year old girl with $20.00 burning in her pocket why she shouldn't buy the Britney Spears CD all her friends have because it's 'crippled'. It plays in her walkman and that's all she cares about. The worst part is, if it doesn't play in her player, she'll buy a new one.
Articles like this don't surprise me. To the informed crowds, all 2% of us, they might as well rent out big billboards and post a big "F*ck you" for all to see. We're not their bread and butter in their short term vision. Keep slapping a belly-baring shirt on a 17 year old with golden vocal cords and you'll never run out of $$$.
So in protest, we download the specific music we want. Morals or not, most people have done it or still do. It just adds the fuel to the fire. They cite pointless statistics about dropping sales. To us it's because the music might suck. As long as they keep putting the words File-sharing and Kazaa in the press-releases, people will assume the two are related, and legit file sharing gets screwed.
They won't go out of business because I don't buy their CDs. Or you don't buy them.
Start getting the 11-14 year olds to stop needing their N'sync fix and then you're onto something. I hate to say it, but with as much knowledge and purpose as we may have, we're no match for teenieboppers with mommy and daddy's money.
How to deal with this... (Score:5, Interesting)
You do three things when a disc won't play on a standard player because of copy protection:
- Insure that the disc has the CDDA label on it, that you legitimately bought it and that it's a standard player (car stereo, home stereo, etc.) and not a computer drive. Basically give the music guys no toehold at all to call you a pirate, unless they want to claim that playing an original purchased CD on your stereo is piracy.
- Return the disc to the store as defective.
- If the store refuses to exchange it for a working disc, or refund your money if they can't find a working disc, file a complaint about the store with your local government's consumer protection office. Don't treat this as an intellectual-property issue, that's playing into the music industry's hands, treat it as a defective-merchandise issue where the warranty and related issues are much more clear-cut and much more in your favor.
When stores start getting in legal hot water for defective merchandise and failure to obey warranty laws, their legal departments will take notice and have a talk with the music industry sales reps. Even the big chains will drop labels rather than take the legal heat on a large scale.This isn't really an issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Second of all, only the big labels with lots of money are going to copy protect their CDs. It's not like the copy protection they're implementing is FREE. It was invented by someone who no doubt patented it and is licensing it to the CD makers (which, consequently, raises the price of CDs).
Personally, I don't care if Britney Spears CDs are copy protected - nor CDs from other no-talent hacks who claim to be artists. Also, I think this protection scheme could be a great instrument in the downfall of such crappy music[sic]. Afterall, teenagers are probably the biggest pirates of this stuff, and it's not like they have money to buy the CDs if they can't copy them, so it can only result in less proliferation of this garbage. Eeeeeexcellent.
There's lots of great music to be had out there, and you can have it without giving up your Fair Use Rights.
- Richard Shindell [richardshindell.com]
- Edie Carey [ediecarey.com]
- Lucy Kaplansky [lucykaplansky.com]
- Dispatch [dispatchmusic.com]
- Rockwell Church [rockwellchurch.com]
- Erin Mckeown [erinmckeown.com]
Just to name a few...Coming to Sam Goody This Xmas--Angry Shopper! (Score:5, Interesting)
"Hi, are you ready to check out?"
"Yes, uhm, could you tell me if this," the customer holds up the first title for the clerk to see, "is copy protected?"
The clerk has this "uh-oh" look and nods.
"Yes," the clerk hesitantly replies trying to avoid the attention of the other clerk who is busy ringing up someone else's order.
The Customer holds up each title and each time the clerk nods, looking less happy as the customer puts them in a seperate pile, until at last there's only the pile of copy protected titles.
"Well, it was nice shopping. See ya." The customer shrugs.
The clerk watches as the customer walks away from the counter, leaving the small pile of titles, probably near $200 worth, sitting on the counter.
The worst part...if this kind of thing happens a new policy of ignorance will emerge, where the clerks will simply say they don't know or can't say. And then the store will refuse to accept any media for refund or exchange once it's been opened.
Oh, and don't forget, there's always a charge for refunding purchases made with some form of plastic, so there's going to be many people who will simply "eat it". Especially the passive cattle with plastic in this great land of diminishing returns.
Cheers.
So many ears! (Score:5, Funny)
[breaks out calc.exe.... tap-tap-tap...] OMG! By similar calculation, I calculate that, allowing for deaf people, there are 12 Billion ears on this planet used for listening to EMI cd's, in comparison with the only 50 million or so microphones in the world. That means 99.995833% of all the world's hearing power is used for EMI music, but EMI's 1996 sales were still only about £2.7 billion. That puts the entire music industry's annual sales for 2002 at about £3 billion. Therefor, each individual ear only pays about £0.25 annually for the more than 213 Million CD's EMI gives to them. That's £0.00000000117370 per CD. Now subtract the greedy musician's 15% royalties, and poor EMI has only pulls in £0.00000000099764.5; not even enough to afford a spot of tea to quench their thirst after a hard day's work.
Oh, and I DO have a degree in Economics [drew.edu], but I didn't use one bit of it to write the preceding rant.
Re:Put the shoe on the other foot (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that they're selling defective goods, and trying to tell people that it's not their problem that their product, that claims to conform to a standard, doesn't, and as such will not work with devices that are designed to use such an item.
Protecting their property would be using the copyright laws to haul someone over the coals for releasing a CD with copyright material on, when they own that copyright.
What they appear to be doing is making it damn hard for the average guy in the street to work out how to get these things to work. And if it's not immediately obvious, they'll give up and try to take it back as defective (which it is). When they get told "No, that's the way things are now!", I wonder how long it'll be before nobody buys the stuff they sell, as it doesn't work.
They, they'll have all this copyright material not being circulated on the net, and also, not in the shops. They'll keep everything to themselves, literally. No revenue coming in, no company.
When they fall, someone with a little more sense will take their place.
Someone in these companies is suffering from a serious case of market myopia.
Malk
Parent
No, the Register is NOT the National Enquirer... (Score:5, Insightful)
In my experience, in the past they have had more journalistic integrity and readily admitted when they were wrong about something than many other organizations. But the fact is that they communicate regularly with many insiders in the IT field, they have been doing it for a while, and a lot of people who know what they are talking about both read the Reg AND supply them with information. Please stop spreading FUD about the Reg.
Parent
Re:oh well (Score:5, Insightful)
There are lots of independent musicians making good music. They're in local bars, local venues, playing college stages, distributing music online for $4 a CD. Or maybe you just wanted to hear some tired old Metallica again; maybe those geriatric millionaire whiners are what you equate with good music. Their voices long ago slipped into irrelevance for me (not coincidentally when they donned suits to protest their fans sharing the music). But maybe the sight of some 40-something, balding fat guys does something for you, I don't care.
I've heard a lot of music from Pavarotti to Poto Duodongo, Grieg to Green Day and just about everything in between and on the outskirts. Now I don't mean to sound harsh -- well, yes I do -- but it's this constant whining about how bad today's music is that really pisses me off. There are as many vibrant, vital new artists out there now as there was twenty years ago playing in all the same places they played back then. Just look. Look in your local Weekend section of your morning paper. Look online. Tune in your local college radio station. But by God's grace, don't bother with commercial radio.
Parent
Musical Value (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't mean it is devoid of musical value.
You can see people dancing and moving and getting emotionally attached to it. That is music, that is art.
The fact that it is candy coated, semi-rebellious crap doesn't make it any less musical then it was in the 80's, 70's, 60's, 50's
Music is the voice of the generation, not surprising many don't want to listen, they'd rather dismiss it as garbage. Myself, I'll just live in the past. (And I'm in my 20's)
Parent
Re:oh well (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that this point of view is propogated by the distillation of the labels' back catalog of music.
I'm 30, so my pop music consumption began in earnest in the early-to-mid mid-80's, when I got my first radio. I'm sure there was a lot of crap in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, but I never hear hear it anymore. What I hear on the radio is the popular stuff from those eras.
Today, what little I hear on the radio (and used to see on MTV), they pump out a lot of crap. Sure, there's good stuff, but it will bubble to the top over the next ten years and wind up in rotation on whatever "best hits of the 80's, 90's..." Clear Channel affiliate is out there at the time.
Do you think that in 20 years, people will get stoned and go soul searchin to N'Sync and Britney Spears albums, like people still do to Pink Floyd's The Wall? I highly doubt it. Will we see "Laser Backstreet Boys" at the local planetarium 30 years from now?
There's pop music, truly groundbreaking music, and then there's utter crap. Sometimes they overlap, and everyone's threshold is obviously different for each category.
I simply love the Beatles. I freely admit that their first albums were no better in content than current boy bands. I'd argue that they grew and contributed to musical history in their later albums. Bands just don't have that kind of shelf life anymore, so they never get time to grow anymore. Joplin, Marley, and Hendrix, also from that era, made some truly soul-shaking music. I don't get that from any current music.
Though I've consumed my fair share of pop music in the 80's and 90's, I can't think of any groups/performers I've followed that have had similar impact on people (as opposed to musical trends). Some of my favoites are Suzzane Vega, Enya, Kirst MacColl, Cheryl Crow, I don't know if any of them will stand the test of time. My wife introduced me to 80's rock these past five years or so (Cinderella, Bon Jovi, Great White), and while those feel more timeless and relavent today than those I loved in that era (Cindy Lauper, Huey Lewis, The Cars, Dire Straits), I don't know if those will last 20 more years either.
Another factor, IMO, is the seeming death of the theme album. I ask this question with all honesty: is there anything from the 90's and later that is equivalent to Sgt. Pepper, Abbey Road, The Wall, and Bat Out of Hell? I'm open to expand my contemporary music tastes here -- let the titles fly.
Having spewed all of that, I'll state that 2nd-hand music sources have been my primary source for a long time. It seems that every college town has a great used music store nearby (any Von's or JL Records fans from Purdue?). Several years ago, I discovered secondspin.com, which I have used almost exlusively since the first RIAA lawsuits began in the late 90's. I haven't bought I new album in quite a while, and these crippled CDs will only reinforce that behavior for me.
Who knows... maybe there's a scientific reason for the generational gap in musical tastes. Perhaps the hormone-charged angst most go through in our teens and early twenties cause us all to bond to whatever music we listen to at the time -- like a duckling that imprints on the first living thing it encounters. I like to think I'm really being objective when I say that the quality of music has been diminishing over time. Maybe it's the homogenization of Clear Channel and the like? If I could get music from the 20's thru 50's produced with today's recording technology (instead of scratchy mono tapes we have in the archives), I'd have a lot of it in my collection.
Parent
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
I think that pretty much gets the point across. Them's fightin' words. :-)
Parent
Verizon was proud to say it to me last night. (Score:5, Informative)
I was discussing a billing error with them last night. They said to me, flat out, "It doesn't matter who's right, we're a big company and there is nothing you can do to touch us. We say you owe us the money. Pay up." It's not just BMI. Corporations know they can roll right over any single one person and they are happy, happy to do it.
Parent
Re:I tried to post first (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally use most of my CD-R's for games/programs that I didn't purchase.
That and digital pictures, home movies, photo CD's, file backups.
maybe 1 in 40 CD-R's I use contains any music at all.
Parent