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China Developing own Standards
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Tue May 25, 2004 09:22 AM
from the well-bully-for-them dept.
from the well-bully-for-them dept.
J ROC writes "Encouraged by their government Chinese electronics firms are shunning technological protocols invented abroad and developing their own, according to this article. The Chinese have developed several standards including EVD to replace DVD standards, and TD-SCDMA to replace the CDMA cell phone standard found elsewhere. The reasons seem to be partly based on "techno-nationalism", and Chinese firms growing tired of paying foreign patent fees. While this may force foreign firms to lower their patent fees, some experts warn that China risks isolating itself if it creates standards that are incompatible with the rest of the world."
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Hardware: China Readies Royalty-Free DVD Format, Again 183 comments
An anonymous reader writes with an InfoWorld article on China's new attempt to introduce a royalty-free format to rival the DVD. The article is not sanguine on China's chances of getting the EVD format used outside of its own borders (they tried once before in 2003). The submitter is more optimistic, asking: "Is this the future and the effective end of DRM — to be taken and co-opted by nation-states?" From the article: "The DVD player makers plan to switch to EVD (enhanced versatile disk) in an attempt to avoid paying patent royalties on the DVD format, according to published reports. The world's largest producers of DVD players, Chinese electronics companies would use the format instead of standards such as MPEG-4. Last week, 20 top manufacturers including Haier announced their plans to switch from DVD to EVD entirely by 2008, according to a report in China Economic News."
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Piracy... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Piracy... (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sure it won't affect it at all, although it will probably affect the manufacture of devices it's played on.
For instance, right now you can buy a DVD player in the USA for $40, if not less, because the components to make one are so widely standardized they can be bought at rock-bottom prices.
If China enforces a new format to replace DVDs, they'll have to require manufacturers to build new devices to play the new format -- which won't be as cheap and won't sell as well, if at all.
It'll be little problem for pirate movie sellers to convert overseas movies to the new format, but it'll be harder for manufacturers to get people to buy the new players unless China goes door-to-door to retake people's region-free players.
If anything, widespread piracy will defeat China's effort to impose new standards, because the government won't be able to stop pirates from selling standard DVDs.
Parent
Maybe we'll get lucky (Score:4, Funny)
the next great leap backwards for China (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:the next great leap backwards for China (Score:5, Insightful)
At least China has good reasons for breaking the standard (avoiding patents), instead of the USA's reasons (they're lazy).
Parent
Re:the next great leap backwards for China (Score:4, Funny)
instead of the USA's reasons (they're lazy).
It's not that we're lazy . . . we just know we're better than everybody else. Why reduce ourselves to their standards? *wink*
Parent
Re:the next great leap backwards for China (Score:5, Funny)
I'd respond to this if I wasn't so early in the morning.
Parent
Re:the next great leap backwards for China (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:the next great leap backwards for China (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't seem to bother the USA my standard GSM phone does only ever worked in New Orleans.
I think China is quite right to reject patent encumbered standards.
Parent
China is too big to worry (Score:5, Insightful)
They won't isolate themselves, they'll re-write the books on standardization.
Funny that. (Score:5, Insightful)
I reckon that's a pretty good base on which to design standards.
Jackie Chan was asked once in an interview if he regretted not breaking into the US market. He replied that with 2 billion people in asia, why should he care about the States?
Re:Funny that. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Funny that. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Funny that. (Score:5, Insightful)
> China may be 20% of the world population, but it
> doesn't have 20% of the world's wealth.
I'm going to add a word to that statement.
"Yet".
Sure, people have been predicting that the most populous nations on earth would be the "next superpower" for years... brazil, india and now china.
I think it will happen, not only for their size, but because they seem to have retained an understanding of the importance of education while the rest of the world... especially the US and Australia... are opting for modeles where the Rich get educated and the "poor" (those not in the top 10%) are receiving less education in order to become serfs for the elite.
I don't think the model is sustainable. But then, Bush is the most powerful man in the world and he's a dipshit intellectually, so maybe I'm wrong.
Parent
Re:Funny that. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Funny that. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with education in America isn't the government. It is the parenting. I grew up in a trailer. We had barely enough money to eat. I attended a substandard school with substandard academics that did little to prepare me for the future. Yet, I've been successful, and my sister even more so (fucking overachiever). How is this possible with the low education and non-existant support from my government? Our parents instilled in us, from an early age, the importance of succeeding where they had failed. They paid attention and made sure we did not regress. This is the job of the parent. It is not the job of the government. No one, child or adult, should expect to "receive" an education. You seldom learn from something handed to you. The true lessons are from what you take or from what is taken from you. Any education is available if you have the initiative to find it. It is this initiative that children lack. For this lack, the parents are predominantly to blame.
Parent
Rather than this quote's concern: (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm more concerned that someday the rest of the world may need to bend over [backward] to support China's standards. They are, after all, manufacturing a great many of the electronic items that we buy.
Standards (Score:4, Funny)
Metric? (Score:5, Insightful)
some experts warn that China risks isolating itself if it creates standards that are incompatible with the rest of the world
Why not? It works for the United States...
On a serious note, China is big enough to throw its own weight around if it wants to, though.
Taking cues from Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
Incompatible Standards (Score:3, Interesting)
And that's particularly different from the U.S. how? PCS vs. GSM...
Turning the table (Score:5, Interesting)
While that is true, China could also benefit from setting their own standards, letting other corporations or other countries use it for free or much lower cost than the more costly, patent protected counterparts. That will likely turn the table around and isolate the more expensive alternatives of what we have now, and will be using their cheaper and possibly superior standards for our future needs.
800lb Gorilla (part 2) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:800lb Gorilla (part 2) (Score:3, Insightful)
Not Really.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Isolated market??? (Score:3, Insightful)
If (for example) the US with a population of ONLY 300 Million, and Japan (130 million) and a few other countries can dominate the worlds technology, I can easily imagine that in 50 years time we could be all following Chinas leads with regards to technology (assuming of course they haven't outsourced it all to India by then
No duh.... (Score:3, Insightful)
China's history is all about isolation (erm, the great wall and stuff), not to mention what communism did to them. Their modern history is rife with isolationism. To quote Spock, "Only Nixon could go to China." This says nothing of the centuries before that. So isolated were they that they didn't even realize they were the ones who invented the clock!
China, isolating itself?... It took experts to realize this?...
Are these Chinese Formats better? Worse? (Score:3, Interesting)
To be honest, I could see why they would want thier own formats. They have a country of over a billion people, and even if only a fraction of them buy eqiupment based on foreign patents; that's a lot of money.
Patent fees (Score:5, Insightful)
Are they even _paying_ patent fees now?
Good for the chinese... (Score:5, Insightful)
Woot for the chinese! Dirty commies!
So Chinese OSS is called Isolation? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullhockey, the rest of the world will cater easily to a market of possibly 1.3 billion consumers, let us not forget the system of capitalism which does not really care who is buying it as long as someone is buying it. If the cost of licensing and fees are so high in a market where the foothold was not that strong to begin with then it would only follow reason that people/corporations/governments will adapt to the fabrication of their own systems...which is the same argument we use in the OSS community.
Additionally, China does not like to follow foreign arrangements, they tangle with democracy and touches of capitalism too much as it is (their opinion), having them rely on those same foreign arrangements undermines the authority of the governing powers.
It's about time that China started doing these things, hopefully the push in the technology direction wont spark another arms race, but rather easier and open stream technology and systems for the lower end users.
Linus is Chinese? (Score:4, Interesting)
It has been promoting as more secure the homegrown Red Flag Linux, based on an open-code operating system.
First Linux was invented by the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, and now Linus is Chinese. Methinks the article author doesn't get it with respect to linux.
As far as the other technolgies, I think the EVD standard is doomed to failure. People are going to want DVDs from abroad, and a player that only does EVD isn't going to sell. The mobile phone standard doesn't matter. The US has gone its own way with cell phone standards and the sky hasn't fallen yet. There's not a lot of compelling reasons why mobile phone standards have to be compatible with the rest of the world, and China is definately big enough to set their own standard.
As far as this cry of "nationalism", that just sounds like posturing to justify this to a certain communist segment of the Chinese populace. Setting your own standards and avoiding patent fees sounds like capitalism to me.
Now would be appropriate to restate... (Score:5, Funny)
No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats - approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
China is very smart to do this (Score:5, Insightful)
China is a real threat to the potential for world democracy. And don't forget it. They may trade with the west, but their political structure and long term planning make them political and economic adversaries long term. Compared to them, Iraq is a "[...]side show of a side show" (See Lawrence of Arabia for the quote).
--Maynard
Re:China is very smart to do this (Score:4, Informative)
China is actually a coal-fueled country, to a much greater degree than the US. Fortunately for them, they happen to have the largest coal reserves in the world. (Unfortunately for them, the coal they have is really dirty, and pollution is the biggest constraint on growth they face.)
-Isaac
Parent
China risks isolating itself? (Score:5, Insightful)
Secondly, China remains a totalitarian country which has only adopted capitalistic market as a stepping stone on its way back to pure communism. That remains the ultimate goal and doctrine of the CCP. Isolation from foreign "control" allows them to better insulate their own population, selectively, from expected evil foreign manipulation and "interference in China's internal affairs". Becoming a "standards-setter" might also give the CCP more leverage over Taiwan's extremely powerful business lobby in preparation of the "re-unification" of that island with communist China.
On a related note, all this foreign investment feeding the growth of totalitarian China is somewhat akin to helping Hitler build up the Nazi German industry, after Hitler had already begun invading its neighbours. China's nationalist propaganda aside, they are holding Tibet under very harsh foreign occupation, and the turkic Uighur people of East Turkestan (which the Chinese call Xinjiang, or "New Frontier") are not too happy under Chinese control and massive influx of ethnic Chinese on their lands either. But yet China is a great business buddy while the fully contained and de facto harmless Iraq had to be invaded... Maybe I just don't get the true meaning of this "liberation of people" stuff.
Maybe their economy is large enough. (Score:4, Insightful)
While this may force foreign firms to lower their patent fees, some experts warn that China risks isolating itself if it creates standards that are incompatible with the rest of the world.
Seems that the US and Canada have done okay despite their standardization on Imperial measurement units as opposed to metric. The Chinese populations is now something like 1.2 billion people if I recall correctly, which is 4 times larger than the US. Once they get going economically they'll be dictating a lot of standards, I'm afraid.
Some Chinese "standards" not doing so well (Score:4, Informative)
The Chinese didn't actually invent most of the technology in EVD; they seem to have just taken the existing DVD medium and licensed On2's VP6 video codec (On2 is US-based). They've shipped so little actual EVD units that On2 is suing the Chinese companies involved [on2.com] for not fulfilling their minimum units obligations. As a bit of anecdotal evidence, my Chinese friend claims that he can't even find EVDs any more (there were more several months ago).
TD-SCDMA was also developed in large part by outsiders (Siemen's IIRC), and hasn't completely taken off, though this may change if/when the government decides to require operators to use it. Point is, I believe many of these new "Chinese standards" are really just a way to encourage real competition in the new Chinese economy, and it's actually working extremely well. EVD, for example, might actually be a really great way to stop the HD-DVD mafia from imposing discriminatory patent fees against Chinese electronics manufacturers.
What this REALLY does (Score:4, Insightful)
Reduces revenue to American and Japanese technology firms.
Allows for a new technical-design boom for Chinese workers, increasing knowledge and affluence.
Creates a cheaper alternative for worldwide consumers, including Americans. (Can you say WAL-MART?)
Increases the brain drain already in full swing from the major outsourcing of programmers and other tech positions to India.
China has a huge population, but.... (Score:3, Insightful)
The current Chinese population is around 1.3 billion. It does not include everyone on Earth.
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:5, Insightful)
China is having a field day, and we should be very concerned that their form of government can reap the benefits of a free society without adhering to its rules.
Parent
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:5, Interesting)
That smacks of 'our-system-is-better-than-yours' elitism which I don't believe is justified. I'm not deliberately going off on an anti-US tirade here but how is the US government adhering to the rules of a free society when it allows the RIAA to haul up hundreds of people in the name of the draconian DMCA? The refusal to be kept in check by the Geneva convention is another example. Of course the Chinese government are draconian, but it's another variation of the draconian governance practiced elsewhere, even in the sanctity of the 'free world'.
Parent
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:4, Insightful)
However, we all know it. We talk about it constantly. We publish newspapers, magazines, and TV shows that display content critical of the government. We protest, rally, demonstrate. We lampoon our past and present leaders, demand (and often get!) changes in leadership and policy.
By and large, we don't kill our own people for it. We don't run slave labor camps, populated by people whose opinion on political matters differs from that of the government.
The Chinese do. China is a police state, run by dictators. It's not a democracy. There is no freedom of expression. Don't confuse the limited expression of economic capitalism in China with individual liberty.
Is the US system perfect? Hell no! Would you trade your life here for a life in China? I wouldn't.
Parent
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:5, Insightful)
China walks all over global standards because China is big enough to get away with it. Same as America, same as Russia, same as Britain (in its time) probably too.
Parent
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Communism is defined as a classless (and stateless) society. If you look at China, it has classes. The people at the top are in one class and the people on the bottom in another. Just because they call themselves communist doesn't mean they are. And if you think that they are I'm the most intelligent person on the planet (and I have this bridge to sell you).
On the matter at hand, I think that it is important for China to develop their own technologies, however, I don't like the idea of them ignoring international standards. If it is just a matter of patents, why they should just ignore them. Oh wait, they're capitalist, they can't do that...
Parent
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:5, Insightful)
No it shouldn't. But not for the motives you give.
The USA has for decades played hardball in international trade. They have been good at getting their own way. The Chinese realise that if they want to become a world ecomonic superpower, they've got to start playing as hard as the USA traditionally has. Europe is also now getting it's act together - the EU is a powerful force in international trade negociations, much more that the individual countries of Europe can be.
You say "Communism itself can't tolerate any kinds of rivals whatsoever". I don't think this has got anything to do with Communism, it's about global trade and China's desire to become a global economic superpower.
Parent
More power to 'em (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:This shouldn't come as a surprise.... (Score:5, Insightful)
"...Chinese firms growing tired of paying foreign patent fees."
This is the part that holds the most significance as the reason it is being done. The western world dominates when it comes to patents. What patents mean in a legal sense is control. The Chinese business interests obviously want control over their own businesses. They have two choices, pay the patent fees and allow U.S. interests control over certain aspects of their technology and business, or ignore patents and/or develop your own so that the control and knowledge is held within your own businesses and country.
Here is the major problem. We are seperating. The U.S., business interests, investors, and even the citizens are unwilling to give up/change the patent system. It is about control and losing it is not what most want. So China is pushing away. This will create tensions between the western world and China, which is not a good thing. Tensions will exist between programmers, politicians, business persons, and many others. Why will they exist? Because now there is a whole new level of understanding and translation. Between China and the west, standards would not match and so translation is required. Understanding would include Chinese attempting to understand our system and the west understanding the Chinese system. Patents are deeply integrated in the technological and business world. All the way from the few existing lone inventors that have a patent of a few to the large conglomerates and even the military.
The ignorance of the Chinese towards patents is not a bad thing. We are led to believe that patents are the answer to progress (and I will argue that with anyone if they wish), but after the introduction of a patent system within our entire legal, social, and economical structure the opposite becomes true and progress is then defined within the limits of the remaining freedoms of thought within our corporate economic system. By ignoring patents and allowing a more natural kind of competition that prevents the tieing up of progress by the legal system which corporations in the U.S. and western countries use as control mechanisms. If is plain to see that the Chinese benefit from such a move and could easily overtake the western world in progress. They have the resources and the people.
Maybe I should consider learning Chinese.
Btw, if anyone isn't sure what I meant by this entire post, please ask. I have a way with words that causes confusion for many.
Parent
tumbling (Score:5, Interesting)
It's called judo: leverage your larger opponent against himself, as he clumsily grasps at you. Chinese people invented it, and it still works, at all scales, in all arenas.
Parent
Re:tumbling (Score:5, Informative)
Remember, kung fu != karate, just like chinese != japanese.
Parent