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Which Digital Video Camera for Amateur Video?
Posted by
Cliff
on Mon Jul 19, 2004 08:54 PM
from the suggestions-for-budding-filmmakers dept.
from the suggestions-for-budding-filmmakers dept.
Maznafein asks: "I'm about to leave the IT world, after just finishing a degree in audio engineering, and I'd like to start doing some A/V work on the side as I attempt to make the transition to a new career. I want to make a my first short film either in the late fall, or early spring. I want to do everything in the digital domain as I currently use Logic and Ableton Live on my power book. I have all the gear I need to use up to eight microphones and I can easily pick up some shot gun mics. I don't really know which [video camera] to go with. Like every geek I want the best resolution available other than that the only thing I know I'll need is it to be water resistant/proof, or be able to purchase a housing, for up to a 15 minute scene in the short film I am adapting. What should I go with?"
"I've always been a firm believer that to make it in any field you have to show that you want to do it. I currently write my own tracks (bangin' german techno) and engineer/mix down local artists (rock, pop and hip hop) on the side already. I just have yet to get into the nitty gritty of doing film production."
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Gotta be... (Score:4, Funny)
Go 24p (Score:5, Informative)
Not cheap, but 3 CCD and progressive scan. And there's an underwater housing available (which isn't cheap, either). And Final Cut Pro on your Powerbook can edit 24p native.
Re:Go 24p (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:5, Informative)
Good luck
-Brett
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:4, Informative)
I liked the Cannon XL1, and I hear the XL1-S is even better.
I'd like to second asparagus's comments about the auxiliary gear. People will forgive lesser video quality, but are quite intolerant of bad camera movement, poor sound, the like.
Have fun!
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed. The XL1-S is far better. Having used both, and GL1s, I highly recommend the XL1-S.
The XL series in particular are very easy to hold, especially with the shoulder pad that has XLR plugs on it. The balance of the camera is superb. I suggest going to a store where you can pick them up and use them.
The 3CCD cameras all produce a good picture, HD is not necessary at this point in time. Also, audio quality may not be important, but you should look at your needs--perhaps you will always use an external mic, perhaps not. The XL and GL1 do not pick up too much motor noise, but the XL sounds far better than the GL.
The XL has interchangable lenses, such as a 3X zoom lens, and has focus and zoom rings, which makes it far easier and faster to control.
Take a look at:
I don't recommend FCP, having used it. I highly recommend Vegas Video. There are a number of essential tools missing from both, but they are absolutely incompatable--FCP being from Apple, and Vegas only running on Windows.
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:5, Informative)
As far as broadcast, DVCAM is minimum quality needed to hand a tape in. Most stations use DigiBeta, however, which is supposedly far better in quality. I have not yet seen the results in dubbing from DV to DigiBeta, but I will soon.
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:4, Informative)
DigiBeta is indeed superior in quality. It's 10bit rather than 8bit which makes loads of difference for post production work, but as video is broadcast 8bit, it doesn't help improve the broadcast quality of uncorrected video (but who leaves video uncorrected??) DigiBeta is compressed, but with a very low rate of compression that for all practical purposes is visually lossless.
A DV to DigiBeta dub will preserve all the DV quality visually losslessly, although there will be a slight mathematical loss. A DigiBeta to DV dub will look excellent. However, in going from DV to DigiBeta the chroma resolution gets converted from 4:1:1 to 4:2:2 via a linear interpolation if you use the SDI output on the DVCAM deck. This can be improved in software using clever algorithms which decode extra chroma information from the full resolution luma, but I know of no hardware implementation.
Large TV stations like the BBC do use digiBeta extensively, but smaller sations are usually stuck with BetaSP due to financial constraints, although our local CTV station here upgraded to BetacamSX which is a format specifically designed for news aquisition. Other local stations use DVCPro (same codec as DVCAM and miniDV, different tape format again) and are now upgrading to Panasonic's new P2 memory card based formats for even more efficient ENG. A lot of TV stations don't use DVCAM - not because it isn't good, but because they've bought into the betacam line and don't have the DVCAM gear. DVCAM is at least as good as BetaSP, but even still the safest format to deliver news footage on is BetaSP. The BBC do a lot of production work with DVCAM, especially using the Sony PD-150, but the mastertape output will be digiBeta for broadcast.
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:4, Informative)
Several waterproof housings are available for it. I've been trying to justify getting one, but the cheapest that's usable for SCUBA is about $1,300 (with no lights), and since I only dive a few times a year I can't justify the expense.
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:5, Informative)
Head over to 2-pop.com for far more info though...
Parent
Re:Go 24p (Score:4, Informative)
1) I agree with parent, the DVX100 (or 100A) is what you want. Don't argue with me, I've shot with most of the other cameras people are mentioning here, and it's one of those cases where I can recommend one model without qualification. Mostly because...
2)
3) Get an anamorphic adaptor, if you have any intention of blowing up to film or projecting on a large screen. Research 4:3, 16:9 native, 16:9 squash, and anamorphic.
4) If resolution is really your bag, remember, prosumer HDV is around the corner (i.e., November for Sony's 3-chip, I believe). JVC's HDV is already available, but falls short for various reasons, mostly through being a 1-chipper. I wouldn't give up 24p to go HDV, though.
5) If your goal is to make a presentable short film, a good microphone is just as important as the camera. Bad sound kills even more amateur films than bad picture, and audiences are particularly unforgiving with sound. Get the nicest Sennheiser you can afford.
6) You also need to light, but there are lots of ghetto solutions to that, and to moving the camera. For Jebu's sake, get a good fluid tripod head. Do your research, find out why filmmakers usually have a wheelchair in their garage.
7) Re. PDX-10 and XL2: I'm virtually certain the PDX-10 has 16:9 squash, not native (16:9 squash is one of the few features the 100A has that the 100 doesn't, another being autofocus in 24p mode, btw.) The XL2 does look interesting, and the choice of lenses is a big draw as it was for the XL1, but it's getting some thumbs down over aliasing, color, and ergonomics. Personally I couldn't get enthused over the XL1, but I only shot with it for a day.
8) The underwater work probably shouldn't drive your decision, you can rent a rig for that. Or find a pool with a window, half-submerge a large fishtank, shoot dry for wet, etc. That's the fun part, being innovative enough to do things you shouldn't be able to do with the available equipment.
9) One last note: while I support the idea that you need to own a camera to experiment with, there's much to be said for renting a different camera for each project, too. No one camera has it all.
Parent
Which Digital Video Camera for Amateur Video? (Score:5, Funny)
More importantly, where do you get the actresses for the, uh, amateur videos?
Re:Which Digital Video Camera for Amateur Video? (Score:4, Funny)
Bus stops, homeless shelters, AA meetings.
Wait.... That was a rhetorical question wasn't it?
Parent
Re:Which Digital Video Camera for Amateur Video? (Score:4, Informative)
if budget is a concern, go with the gl1... same ccd chip, fixed lens.
Parent
Re:Which Digital Video Camera for Amateur Video? (Score:4, Interesting)
According to "DV museum" [dvshop.ca] it was shot with Sony PD 100 & Sony DXC D30WS. Another source [911media.org] says they used Sony DSR500WS. Yet another one [sulekha.com] tells they were using Sony DSR-PD150. Many sources seem to agree that there were one hundred Sony DSR-PD100s. I advice you not to make your decision based on what you saw in Dancer In The Dark. I suppose you'll have to ask the film crew to find out what cameras really were used. And the DV to film transfer process that you can't afford, supposedly plays as big role in the image quality.
Anyway, whatever those cameras were, they seem to produce utterly sad movies. Please avoid all cameras listed in my post at all cost.
--
No sig.
Parent
Budget???? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Budget???? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the Canon GL-2, with the manual audio controls and the built-in shotgun mike, is the prosumer cam of choice these days though -- I think it's around $3K and it's a very reasonable size for something that loaded. As for the XL-1(S) and XL-2... well, they've got their advantages for pros, but the one time I got to work with an XL-1 I grew to hate the bulk of the thing quite rapidly. For the hardcore pro on an infinite budget, the XL-2 is probably worth the money (especially where being able to swap lenses is a necessity, as in nature documentaries and the like), and the ability to use it off the shoulder instead of having to hold it up is nice, but I would think it's not worth it for nine out of ten video producers. (Hell, I do a cooking show with a two-year-old JVC consumer camcorder... of course JVC does sneak the odd pro feature like manual white balance into even their junkier hardware...)
One thing to consider: HDTV. The JVC GR-HD1 has a reputation for being kind of balky with color, but it's pretty much your only option if you're shooting for a high-def end result.
Parent
Here's an idea (Score:5, Funny)
"Not an ask slashdot"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Every Ask Slashdot has a healthy bunch of comments questioning the validity of the ask slashdot, telling the person to google, and whatnot.
Maybe it's time to just hardcode that into the Ask Slashdot section to save all these folks their precious time?
Whoa. I actually can't tell if I'm being sarcastic.
Re:"Not an ask slashdot"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:"Not an ask slashdot"? (Score:5, Informative)
Sony: excellent quality but you pay a premium for the name. Probably the only important manufacturer of Digital8 hardware, which might be important if you have a large library of 8mm tapes to be digitized, but they don't make any D8 hardware even close to pro-quality. Sony is also a fan of proprietary formats -- Memory Stick instead of SD/MMC or CompactFlash, MicroMV (which is nothing but a marketing gimmick as far as I'm concerned).
JVC: I use a JVC myself. JVC tends to hide occasional pro features in their camera menus (particularly manual white balance) but the quality of the product depends on the model year. Mine is 2002 and I've never had a complaint; the 2003 models, though, looked and felt like junk. Their 2004 models are too small and seem to have ergonomic issues. JVC does have the only consumer HDTV camcorder available right now.
Canon: They seem to keep their designs pretty consistent from year to year, and the GL and XL series pretty much define the high end for consumer/prosumer camera hardware. Their ZR series is a little on the small side for me, though I'd probably buy one of them if I was in the market for a second camcorder.
Panasonic: The only cheap 3CCD camcorders on the market is one of theirs -- I think the low-end one costs around $800. I can't say much about the quality, though I do find their ergonomics to be awkward -- the cameras are too small, and you have to unplug the battery and put it in a separate charger. To me this is an utterly ridiculous sort of design flaw.
Samsung: Junk for now, though it's gotten better over the years. Tends to be rather gimmicky, though apparently they can play back PAL-format miniDV on an NTSC TV, which would make for a powerful advantage in certain markets.
I think that covers most of the major manufacturers, at least those you'll find at Best Buy or Circuit City. My thinking is that Sony and Canon probably offer the best product available for most purposes, with JVC being a decent choice on the high end but dodgy at best on the Best Buy level of things.
Parent
Progressive Scan (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Progressive Scan (Score:4, Informative)
Uh, no. White balance, focus, framerate, iris, etc can each be set to manual or automatic. This is true on the GL1, XL1, and XL1-S.
Parent
Price range? (Score:4, Informative)
Spike Lee and DV (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Dont ask /. ! (Score:3, Insightful)
I am sure there is going to be a list of better sites to find your answer.
XL2 (Score:3, Informative)
Resolution... (Score:3, Informative)
No you don't!
The higher the resolution, the less light you get per pixel for a given lens size -- this results in higher noise levels when you're in relatively low-light situations (e.g. indoors).
Why would you need higher resolution in a video camera, anyways? Sure there's HDTV, but if you're talking about regular TV resolution, there's absolutely no point. If you want to take stills, get a separate digital still camera; don't compromise your video.
Re:Resolution... (Score:5, Informative)
My advice is this:
A) Rent a camera, don't buy. You can rent a much better camera than you can ever afford and it'll show.
B) res does matter. You shoot with a shitty camera, and no amount of color correction or digital post-production is going to change the fact that it looks like you shot it with a shitty camera. You can always subtract information for video, DVD, or HDTV, you can always compress it, but you cannot ADD information that isn't there to begin with. If you're talking about regular tv resolution, than you're a fucking idiot and don't know shit about filmmaking.
C) If you're shooting indoors, and you're shooting a film, you're lighting a scene. Make sure you whit-balance it to the tungsten filament indoor lights you're using. If you're shooting it outside, likewise to the sun, which has more blue in in.
D) No camera is water-resistant/proof. You'll need a housing, and you'll need to be willing to run the risk of ruining the camera. If you're going to be shooting legally (i.e. with permits, insurance, etc.) shooting in the water will add about $30,000 in insurance premiums alone (trust me, I've done it before). Save yourself the trouble, the time, and the money: change the scene while it's in the script stage; it's free to change now, it'll cost you to change it later.
E) If you want more advice/some tips/anything else from someone who's shot more than a few short films (and produced as well) email me and we can chat.
Parent
As another video geek, I say: (Score:5, Interesting)
F) depending on the effect you're trying to get, consider alternatives. Think: Pixelvision. Think VHS. Think cheapie DV camera. Process the the bejesus out of it. If it's your first work, don't bother with trying to make it look Hollywood, or even Daytime TV. just get something out the door, that you feel good about. It's better to make some not-so-great art that you find personally fulfilling and was a great learning experience than some primetime dogfood commercial.
G) Here's another tip: Shoot with a cheap DV camera (like I dunno - a Canon ZR60 - $300 when you can find 'em) and then take all the colour out in post. There is no loss to the luminance signal (DV is 4.1.1), so a cheapie is going to look a lot more like a high end camera in Black and White than it will in colour, due to the loss from using a single chip NTSC camera.
H) CONCENTRATE ON CONTENT. If the content is compelling, the formal inadequacies are often not as noticeable, or can even be used as a foil to amplify the content. Having something important and insightful to say with your work will trump any HDTV camera and lighting crew and prima donna actors you can find. Life is too short to make stupid crap, but if your budget doesn't permit hiring Walter Murch and a REAL CAMERA [panasonic.com] then focus on what you're trying to say, and strive to say it well.
I) there is no point I.
J) Pracitce your editing chops doing some video smashups. Rent a bunch of DVDs of movies that make you go "THAT WAS FUCKING GREAT", rip them to your drive as QT movies, and then edit the crap out of them. Study the really well edited ones - see how they're put together.
K) It seems you're going for a "music video" from what I can gather, so look at the masters of the genre, especially Chris Cunningham and Godley and Creme for fancy stuff, and then check out the works of the Emergency Broadcast Network. you don't need fancy cameras and actors and lighting to make an extremely effective video. You just need a vision and the will and some small amount of money to get you going.
Good luck,
RS
Parent
30fps or 24fps? (Score:4, Informative)
The other major 24fps camera is the Panasonic AG-DVX100A, but I've seen a lot of so-so reviews about it.
No matter what you buy, you'll have to buy a underwater casing for it.
Re:30fps or 24fps? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:30fps or 24fps? (Score:3, Insightful)
I use these cameras every day and love them. They produce a great picture and even the standard batteries aren't that bad.
And Final Cut does support 24fps natively.
Easy choice.... (Score:5, Interesting)
...you want the newly announced Canon XL2 [canon.com].
It has vast third-party support, shoots 4:3 and 16:9 (although it is still a DV-format cam with the limitations that the 720x480 pixel resolution the standard requires), shoots in 60i, 30p and 24p, has XLR connectors, and will even take (with an adapter) Canon EOS lens from the still photography line in case you need something special like a super telephoto or a tilt-shift lens.
You really couldn't ask for more (except a lower price and native HDTV capabilities).
Keys (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, check out the Canon XL1 or XL1s cameras (they don't support RGB keys), and if you can go higher, check out the Panasonic DVC200, which does support RGB keys and is a terrific camera. I'm not aware of any cameras that come standard with waterproof enclosures - that will probably be extra unless I'm mistaken.
One other tip I **strongly** suggest - if there's a film association near you, go to one of their meetings and talk to the people who do this as serious amateurs or paid professionals. You will learn a lot very quickly. If an association isn't an option, find your closest university, politely request an appointment with any filmmaker on staff, and then soak 'em for info for ~2 hours.
Good luck. FWIW, like HTML, it's easy to do and hard to do well,
Forget resolution, get 2 cameras. (Score:4, Informative)
The area's where you want to put the extra cash are:
0) Second camera. It will be much more help than you can imagine. Filming a take from two angles makes syching cuts straight forward, backup for battery / reliabilty etc. If you see the use of 8 mikes, I'm sure you can accept that multiple cameras are handy too.
1) Picture signal-to-noise ratio. You can tweak it in post, but it's better if you don't have to.
2) Optical Zoom. If you've a particular project in mind, you might not need much, but in general, it's handy to have.
The only other feature that's worth looking at is connection methods (IEEE-1394 all the way, really), and if you can push footage back to tape with the camera (very useful for backups for rendered scenes).
Normally, I'd add something about microphone quality, but I get the impression that's not an issue for you.
Get Adjustible White Balance (Score:4, Informative)
Anyway, I bought 3 sheets of neon green posterboard, taped them together and used it as a green screen which I sit in front of. The software (Premiere) actually does a good job of keying out the green so I have my head floating in front of a transparent alpha-channel, and so I can manipulate the background easily.
Here's the problem: The camera sees all that green. In fact, it thinks it sees too much green and tries to tint the picture toward red to compensate. As a result, I come out looking like I have a bad sunburn. Now, I think I've figured out how to correct the color in the editor, but it sure was a PITA.
I know that the professional cameras have a lot more features (at much, much higher prices), but my dinky little camcorder does almost everything I want, except there's no way to tell it what white looks like.
The other thing to make sure to get is the ability to add a wide-angle lens. Really increases your options for framing your shots.
CHeck out wwug.com and digitalvideoediting.com for all sorts of cool information.
Definately DV (Score:3, Informative)
A 3CCD camera is a must just like the ability to manually focus.
Something that will help the look of your final product considerably is color correction. Apple's Final Cut Express has decent color correction capabilities and it won't set you back too much.
While a nice camera makes things look better, it's the content that keeps people watching. Think about what you are trying to convey and shoot accordingly. Spend time to plan your shots and get to know your camera before you start shooting your movie.
Check out my movies if you want to see what can be done for under $1000.
Make it cheap (Score:5, Informative)
Don't freak about 3CCD elements and "all that jazz" because your first movie will be the exercise in which you make all your first mistakes. The degradation of substandard video equipment will be ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less than all sorts of issues you will face.
If you're really serious and have some money to rub together, check out one of the programs of the New York Film Academy. They offer 4- or 8-week intensive courses that are really good, concentrated, and destined to give you the most bang for your buck. It'll do you a whole lot more good than spending several extra dollars on top-notch equipment.
Murray Todd Williams
http://www.murraywilliams.com
P.S. My projects from the NYFA are on my website. They may seem rough around the edges, but I learned VOLUMES in making them!
Borrow or rent. (Score:4, Informative)
Lights (Score:3, Insightful)
Good lighting is EVERYTHING when it comes to video and film. Everything. If you aren't lighting your scenes properly, they will look light shit.
The quality of your camera comes a distant second to the quality of your lighting scheme/equipment.
The best you can afford? (Score:3, Informative)
Now what range you should look to spend depends on what you want to do. If this is just a film for fun, and quality isn't an issue, get a cheap Canon MiniDV cam. They have lots of them, often for under $400 if you scout around. These will not give good quality, however.
For about $800-$1000, you can get a camera that is pretty close to broadcast NTSC quality. The Canon Optura Xi is what I like. It's good enough to be low end broadcast TV.
If you are willing to drop some more, well look at getting a Canon GL2 or maybe Sony DCR-VX2100. These are basically broadcast quality, and in some ways even better than DVD quality. You won't be sorry with the picture you get out of these. Around $1800-$2200.
If you want to max out on MiniDV, hard to go wrong with a Canon XL1s or their new XL2. I haven't personally used the XL2, but it sounds even better than the XL1, which just rocks. Real pro quality stuff here that gets great pictures right out of the box. Talking in the $3000 range.
More than that? Well now you are talking real DVCam or DVPro, and in that arena I don't have much experience. Again my inital recommendation would be to stick Canon or Sony. I'm more partial to Canon becuase I like their lenses better, but I imagine you can put a Canon lens on a Sony DVPro unit.
Canon XL-1 (Score:3, Insightful)
Get a Canon XL1 used (Score:3, Insightful)
what i want (Score:3, Informative)
1) Shoots 16:9 or 2.85:1 or whatever
2) Shoots in at LEAST 480p if not 720p
3) Records straight to DVD
how about a slightly used $500,000 camera? (Score:5, Funny)
you just have to lick all the chocolate off it.
Re:Aren't there... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:My Family Videos (Score:3, Funny)
I meant everyone in my family is impressed. I'm sure the jerks on this site will find every fault and then some. But that's Slashdot.
Re:Missing equip for amatuer video? (Score:5, Funny)
And if you pay her by the hour, she's not a girlfriend!
Parent
and back ON-topic - Re:OT: Is film going away? (Score:3, Insightful)
as noted earlier, don't use less than DV for the money shots
the sony vx[1,2]000 are nice
the canon xl series allows you to change lenses as needed,
jvc and panasonic both make affordable(?) HD.
ditto info from the local users group/union hall
and now onto the other questions:
Film == complications? - film can be complicated if you don't have the skills or experience, you'll be wasting precious $$$ processing and seeing potentially crappy results. While film does have a 'feel