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Michael Moore Seeks TV Airing of Fahrenheit 9/11

Posted by CmdrTaco on Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:16 AM
from the what-channel-would-air-it dept.
telstar writes "According to Michael Moore's website, he plans to forgoe the nomination for Best Documentary in an effort to get his highly controversial movie Farenheit 9/11 on television. Despite having no assurances from the home video distributor, Moore hopes to air the film prior to the November elections ... suggesting the eve of the elections as a potential air date. Considering how many questions have been raised as to whether Moore's movie presents truth or propaganda, one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation."
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  • Voters don't think (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fred3666 (539394) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:18AM (#10189309)
    This election hasn't been about issues anyway. It's about Bush during 9/11 or Kerry during Vietnam.
    • by Nos. (179609) <andrew AT thekerrs DOT ca> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:24AM (#10189420) Homepage
      As a Canadian, I find American politics to be... disturbing. It seems most of the media is about politicians attacking each other rather than promoting themselves. Growing up in Canada I don't remember seeing this here, but lately its started to become the same thing here. Rather that promote their plans for the future, they basically take the stance of, well at least we're not doing what the other party is.
      I'd rather see politicians telling us what there plan is rather than spending their air time making suggestions about who inhaled while they were in college.
      • John Kerry voted for one version of an appropriations bill for Gulf War II, and voted against another. George W. Bush threatened to veto one version of the appropriations bill, and signed another. Because the Bush campaign was the first to figure out how to work half of these facts into a soundbyte, now Kerry is a "flip-flopper" in the public eye.

        The success of negative campaigning isn't just the public's fault, either; it's partly because both candidates this time really do suck. I know that for a lot of voters the answers to "Do you want George W. Bush as your president?" and "Do you want John Kerry as your president?" are the same: no! IMHO the Bush campaign is doing a good job keeping the latter question in people's minds, and it's going to win him the election.
      • by hey (83763) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:34AM (#10190695) Journal
        Nearly all Canadians think Bush is an moron and bad for the USA/world and we don't understand why our American neighbo[u]rs don't see this too. Normally we are very good at understanding the behavour of Americans. In fact we're usually better than Americans at this. Way better than the Brits. I think its like when your sister is dating some guy who is a bit mean or rude and you wish she'd drop him since she can do better. Talking to her won't help -- you know that. You just hope she grows out of him. Good luck, sister.
  • Dumb The Vote (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Foofoobar (318279) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:20AM (#10189328)
    Considering how many average Americans vote out of raw emotion anyway, expecting them to intelligently dissect the issues is a little beyond their ability. Most of them can't even program the VCR.

    And considering the fact that the winner will get to pick 3 supreme court justices (hence setting the tone for laws in our country for the next 20 years), it's no wonder this has degraded into a schoolyard brawl.
        • religion and voting (Score:5, Interesting)

          by No-op (19111) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:35AM (#10190708)
          As a christian, I can honestly say that I think bush mouths all the phrases he thinks conservative christians would like to hear. I think if you look more deeply into his actions, you see someone who has no idea about any of the basic tenets of christianity, and is just playing a game to garner votes.

          This holds true for pretty much all politicians, really, but I find bush's efforts in this regard to be quite appalling. I certainly don't want to vote for Kerry (who has always been a loser) but I'm voting against bush, more than anything.

          That being said, I know way too many people voting for bush just because he says he's an "evangelical christian". I usually suggest that the actions of jesus sound like scary liberal hippie communism, which draws blank stares.
  • Moore (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pHatidic (163975) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:20AM (#10189334) Homepage
    People keep saying Moore's movie isn't a documentary because it's full of bias. This is a load of crap, all documentaries have bias. Everything ever written for that matter has bias. If F/911 can be said to be not a documentary it is because he doesn't actually really document anything. It's just him talking over CNN and fox news footage for two hours. That is the thing that pissed me off about this movie, that in the previous ones he and his film crew are taking all the footage, but in this movie its just him narrating his opinions on top of stock footage. It cheapens his message (which I agree with) and lowers the quality of the experience overall.
  • Fair and Balanced (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ColdWetDog (752185) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:20AM (#10189347) Homepage
    "one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation."

    As opposed to all of the partisan commercials, and of course, the Fair and Balanced(TM)(C)(Patent Pending) "news".

  • by scotay (195240) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:21AM (#10189352)
    airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation.

    Since when have the American electorate ever shown thoughtful contemplation? We sell our presidents like soda. The electorate consistently rewards mud slinging (or fails to vote against it) and runs on emotion rather than reason. That's why we get the government we deserve. McCain-Feingold will never change this fact. Until people stop voting for the 2-party duopoly and stop rewarding the lies, this mess will continue.
  • helps or hurts? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:21AM (#10189354)
    even if we assume it to be pure propaganda, would you say that a partisan filmmaker saying the president is wrong hurts more or less then the Vice President of the United States saying that if voters make the "wrong" choice in November, the terrorist boogyman is literally going to kill them?
  • Mccain-feingold (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dfenstrate (202098) * <dfenstrate@NOsPam.gmail.com> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:21AM (#10189356)
    one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation.

    Not to mention it may very well be prohibited under the mccain-feingold act, a trashy unconstitutional piece of legislation if there ever was one.

    Funny how the supreme court finds it more important to protect simulated child pornography (unimportant) and is okay with silencing political speech (the most important type!).

    If someone ever finds the supreme court's balls, please return them to washington. They're desperately needed.

  • by Jonny Ringo (444580) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:24AM (#10189415)
    Its a tough call. But after watching his movie I'm still on the fence. I'm either going with Ralph Nader, or Michael Badnarik. I know what all you are saying. Voting for Badnarik takes votes away from Nader and lessens his chances of being in future debates. Well I'm sick of this tired old argument. So all of you naysayers, I don't want to hear it! You have to vote with your heart.
  • Propaganda (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sheepdot (211478) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:29AM (#10189498) Journal
    questions have been raised as to whether Moore's movie presents truth or propaganda

    People are still questioning it?

    Moore hopes to air the film prior to the November elections

    There's your answer right there.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, but there was a clear opinion expressed. F911 is material disseminated by an opponent to a poltical agenda, thus "propaganda" by definition.

    It is entirely possible for something to be both truthful and propaganda. In fact, I'd venture to guess that most politically-biased material is truthfull. At least, efficient propganda is.

    The only thing I took issue with was claims about the family ties between Bush and bin Laden. They are actually very weak ties and arguments. Specifically the one with the Carlyle Group. For more information on this, I would suggest checking out the following K5 Diary entry: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/8/2/121046/0201 [kuro5hin.org]
  • by slusich (684826) * <slusich&gmail,com> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:32AM (#10189561)
    I don't feel that having F911 air is any more inappropriate then allowing all of the talk radio people continually talk about what a great man Bush is. It's all a matter of free speech, which should be protected. That being said, I have serious doubts that the film will ever be shown on a major network. The "Liberal Media" tag has been thrown around for far too long by people who are so far to the right they no longer understand where the center may be. The truth is that most of the media is controlled by large corporations who stand to gain nothing by allowing someone in office who might restrict them from growing their monopolies. For the last 4 years, the media has given Bush a free ride. No serious investigations have been done into his past, despite allegations of conduct much worse then anything Clinton was ever accused of. Bush has been allowed to change his position over and over again and still point the finger at Kerry for being indecisive. The total time spent airing the RNC vs. the DNC should show whose side the media really is on.
  • by jdreed1024 (443938) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:33AM (#10189579)
    It's only propaganda if you let it be propaganda. In the age of the global internet, with hundreds of different news sources at your disposal (or accessible via your local public library), it's real hard to call something propaganda.

    Flash back to World War II, for example. Consider the famous German propaganda broadcasters - they were on government-owned radio stations, broadcasting to the German people that England was about to surrender, and Hitler was marching through London. The average person had no way of knowing whether or not that was true. They couldn't go online to someone's blog showing the Allies storming the beaches at Normandy. They couldn't flip to FOX News showing German troops freezing in Russia. And they couldn't turn on AMC showing Steve McQueen jumping his motorcycle across the border. It was either accept what the government said, or die.

    Nowadays, however, you can find hundreds of sites devoted to debunking Michael Moore. You can go look up the Congressional Record and see if all those people in F9/11 really did object to certifying the election results and if it was really true that no member of the Senate would sign their objections (it was). You can search newspapers and see old video clips and see if Moore really did edit Charlton Heston's speech in Bowling for Columbine (he did). You can see if the family Moore interviewed really did lose a son in Iraq (they did).

    The days of newsreels in the movie theater are long gone. If you go to any movie and take what is says as fact (Be it Fahrenheit 9/11, I Robot, the Passion of the Christ, or the Pokemon movie), you're an idiot. Moore has said many times that he wants his movies to raise questions, not indoctrinate people. That's why I go to see them - to have my values and viewpoints challenged. But you can't suddenly base your entire life on them, any more than you should change your values based on someone coming up to you on the street and saying that your political party sucks.

    I'm not a huge fan of Moore outside his movies - I think a lot of his speeches are grandstanding, and I thought he was kind of a jerk at the Oscars, but that doesn't mean he can't make movies that make you think. I mean, David Lynch makes good movies, but man I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes along with him.

  • by Tri0de (182282) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:40AM (#10189722) Journal
    Thhe fact that this is a underhanded flamefest is a Good Thing, IMO.
    If Kerry thinks the leaders of other countries are going to be any nicer than thhe WORST that Rove and the swifties can throw at him he's nuts. Welcome to the big leagues, John.
    But then I'm a Libertarian and so I KNOW my party is going to lose, so let 'em rogh each other up. There really is no hope until we shitcan the two party system and Greens, Libertarians and everyone else can have an actual reason to VOTE for someone they give a crap about.
  • Michael Moore (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Reality Master 101 (179095) <RealityMaster101&gmail,com> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:41AM (#10189726) Homepage Journal
    I can't prove this, but I highly suspect that Michael Moore has gained Bush more votes than he has cost him.

    People generally hate obviously unfair propaganda. Michael Moore has done more damage to the left than anything the GOP could have done.

    What I always find interesting about the left is how they sabatage themselves. Look at all the ridiculous things they say about Bush... comparing him to Hitler, saying that he's out to kill as many people as possible, that he wants to poison everyone, on and on. I remember exactly the same thing happening with Reagan. The things they were saying about him were insane. (Literally, saying things like, "He WANTS a nuclear war!!").

    The left seems to do this far more than the right. The naive left starts believing all this weird crap and alienates the middle. Of course, the GOP has the religious right spouting weird nonsense, but not nearly to the degree that the left does.

  • Michael Moore is a genius and is good for America.

    I'll explain.

    He comes out with Fahrenheit 9/11. It's full of things. It's a very effective piece of propoganda. And there's almost nothing in it which is false or a lie.

    It's been my experience that it's by and large intelligent people who go see his films. Think about it - it's the intelligent people who will give his work the time of day. It's been my experience that the people who say "he's a damn dirty liar and I won't support that" haven't done their research and are on the whole the ones who would rather not hear anything he has to say.

    Consequently it's these same intelligent people who walk out of the theater saying "wow, that was pretty bad for Bush & Co. - but I bet it's only one side of the story". And it is.

    Moore tells you about the VA Hospitals Bush closed down, but not about the ones he opened up.

    Moore tells about the opinon piece that says Gore won, but he doesn't tell you about the dozen stories that say he lost.

    Moore tells you about the judges Bush couldn't get appointed, but not about the ones he did.

    People have made it their goal to point out the one-sided arguments in the film [davekopel.com] while others have pointed out the fallacies [dailykos.com] in those arguments against the film.

    56% of Americans have either seen the film or plan to see the film. There's no way in hell that 56% of Americans are informed about politics. So they learn a lot from Fahrenheit 9/11. Then they learn a lot more from the people against F911. Then they learn even more from the people who are against the people who are against F911. And they decide for themselves who they want to believe more. Or more importantly they decide for themselves which information is important to them.

    And then they're informed. In ways they never would have been before. I wouldn't know most of this stuff if I hadn't seen the film and then read all the debates. And I wouldn't have read the debates if it weren't for the Internet. Hell, Michael Moore used footage he got from the Internet to make the movie.

    And that's why Michael Moore is a genius. Thanks to him there's a ton more informed voters out there, if for no other reason than people need to see the movie and get their ducks in order in order to hate Moore and his arguments. In many ways he's leveled the playing field.

  • After five years of making thoughtful and informed posts, I have some karma to burn. I'll regret having posted this when I see that "-5 Troll" beside it later today -- but I figure, a guy's got a right to let off some steam.

    I'll let you in on a little secret of mine. Liberal as I am, I enjoy tuning into Fox. I like reading the RNC's website. I have fun watching the masters of hypocrisy and intolerance. They say some mighty funny, outrageous things! I wouldn't want these crackpots in charge of my country, my legal system or even the corporations in which I own stock -- but that doesn't stop me from laughing at 'em. For every three logical things they say, they just have to throw in a zinger -- a racist slur, a completely inappropriate personal attack, a tremendous fallacy, a made-up statistic, or what have you. And I find that funny as all hell!

    To all of the Bill O'Reillys [fair.org] of the world, for the Rush Limbaughs [rushlimbaughonline.com], the Ed Gillespies [dailykos.com] and the Zell Millers [blog.com], I would like to say: nyeah nyeah nyeah, we have our own pundits now!

    (I apologize that all of those links are to biased sources; I tried to find more impartial sources for my quotes, but "unbiased" news sources tend to shy away from reporting on the more outrageous things our politicians and public figures say, because they would quickly gain a reputation for being biased for having done so.)

    Yes, now we progressives have our own crackpot figures who make completely unfounded statements with fallacies you could drive a truck through. They twist words, edit footage and tinker until the truth looks juuuuuuust right. Like their regressive counterparts, they're darned good at it. I honestly enjoy them as entertainment, I do.

    Aside from giving me great insight into Bush's and Cheney's motivations (money) and Bush's personality (insecure, attention-seeking jock who aims to please his parent figures), Fahrenheit 9/11 was funny, tragic, moving, a reminder of all we lost that day and all we've lost since: collective innocence, blissful ignorance of the effects of our actions abroad, good men in uniform, personal freedoms. Looking through the bull puckey about Saudi air travel privileges, tuning out the anti-war propaganda, I sat in the theater and saw a decent movie.

    But this movie did not sway my political position any more than watching The O'Reilly Factor would. This is because Michael Moore, like all the rest of the pundits, makes entertainment. He tries to deliver a political message, but the message is almost always choked by his own hyperbole and willingness to sacrifice the truth in order to inspire outrage in his viewers.

    If the intent of releasing Fahrenheit 9/11 ahead of time is to sway the minds of voters, I am afraid the stunt will backfire horribly. Most of the nation is already set in stone as to who they will vote for. The only votes left up for grabs are the precious, the few, the "swing votes." By definition, these people are independent, and like to think about their decisions before making them. They like to check their facts, and they are not easily swayed by appeals to sentimentality. If these people are forced to approach Fahrenheit 9/11 as a run-on political advertisement, they will rebel. They will scoff at the inaccuracies and ignore the redeeming social and political message of the movie. And that just might sway them enough to vote for the other side . . .

    Just a thought.
    • by savagedome (742194) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:21AM (#10189361)
      Before everyone starts flaming, everything in the documentary was 'facts'. Now, the way he presented them was his own spin on the 'truth'. You need to take it with a grain of salt.

      Nobody wants to talk about the real issues anyway. Both the parties are busy butchering each other on stupid stuff.
      • by Jeff DeMaagd (2015) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:52AM (#10189965) Homepage Journal
        Right on.

        I thought it was funny when a newspaper sued Moore
        because they say he represented a letter to the editor as a front page headline story, and changed the date of the letter. I wonder what happened to that suit.
        • by htmlboy (31265) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:51AM (#10190992)
          thought it was funny when a newspaper sued Moore because they say he represented a letter to the editor as a front page headline story, and changed the date of the letter. I wonder what happened to that suit.


          iirc, they sued him for $1, since that's the minimal amount they could ask. the suit was only a means to seek a formal apology, which i believe they got.
      • by iwadasn (742362) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @12:07PM (#10191242)

        When we were shown the videotape of the police beating rodney king, that was also skewed. It hardly showed the LAPD at their best, nor was it representative of the vast majority of LAPD officers, however... it was the truth. A single "mishap" of that magnitude is enough for a criminal case, and the fact that it might not happen all the time is irrelevant.

        The vast majority of serial killers spend the vast majority of their time not killing, does that make it OK? Could you walk into a court of law and say "well, you do have my client on film killing someone, but he doesn't do that all the time, certainly less than one hour a month, how about we just let it slide".

        The facts are the facts. Biased or not, what was shown in that movie should be enough to get bush nailed to the cross, even if it is a selection of his worst deeds.

        • by nojomofo (123944) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:44AM (#10189798) Homepage

          Or, for instance, if you call thousands of voters in South Carolina, and ask them how they'd feel if they were to find out that John McCain had an illegitimate black child, that implies that he does. Not false, but deceptive. But, gee, wonder what the intent was. That would be to deceive the voting public.

            • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:18AM (#10190427)
              I've wondered why nobody has pursued Bush's illegitimate and aborted child

              Probably because they're all on the same alien spacecraft with Art Bell, wearing tin-foil hats and talking with Elvis. What gives with people buying into this stuff anyway? Why do otherwise intelligent people suspend all critical thinking and go Unabomber wacko when they hear or see a conservative?

              A friend of mine had an interesting theory (which he based on my behavior, amusingly). I used to be significantly overweight, and have since lost it all and am in good shape. When I see overweight people, especially fat geeky introverted guys, I tend to really get disgusted with them. I'd want to go over to them and tell them to put the 60 ounce sugar fountain drink down and get a grip on their life.

              My friend (a wanna be shrink, I think) observed that I'd react most severely to people that were like the part of me I was irresponsible with. Some sort of self hatred I projected into these beefy nerds. Look at the ABB (Anybody But Bush) crowd. Their hatred is equally emotional and irrational. A bunch I know scream about him being a former alcoholic and alleged coke user. "He's no better than anyone else." Curiously, those that scream the most are the ones who refuse to get control of their own substance abuse issues. And isn't it curious that the party that has made abortion rights a perpetual issue is accusing Bush of having one? Yes, they claim hypocracy, but don't they have a mirror in their house?

              My recommendation to all you loathing, under-successful people of intelligence and potential: Get off of the loser trip today. Set down these two rules for yourself:

              1. Do not let yourself condemn or criticize anyone else. You've got enough to work on with yourself. Deep down, you know you're projecting self-hatred onto others. You know hating Bush or Kerry not only doesn't fix your own problems, but is a lie to yourself that allows you to pretend you're doing something when you're not.

              2. Establish your principles and DO NOT SACRIFICE THEM FOR ANYTHING. Be consistent - this is your gold standard and the definition of your self value. This is what you'll be remembered for - not for all the attacks you made on other people, or how you were a "master of nuance" (history looks very negatively upon such intellectual frauds). If you believe it is wrong for people to be attacking your candidate on his Viet Nam service, then apply it to both candidates. If you think it would be wrong for George Bush to come out with the espose the night before the election on Kerry's affairs or nasty details on his divorce/affairs, then stand up and oppose Michael Moore doing the same to Bush. The more you stand up for the other side or other guy, the more you'll find your objectivity strenghtening.

              I didn't become un-fat before I started dealing with my lies, delusions and hatred of myself as expressed in others. Give it a shot and live won't suck so much!

        • by Burpmaster (598437) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:06AM (#10190236)

          And you imply that this 877 number existed when the movie was made. A quick search for the number you gave found this link [house.gov]. A check [archive.org] on archive.org found that page was first archived on July 6, 2004, almost two weeks after Fahrenheit 9/11 was released in theaters.

              • Re:bite me asshat. (Score:5, Informative)

                by CaptRespect (586610) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:36AM (#10190717)
                "no links found to al-Qaeda and no WMDs"

                Actually the 9/11 commission did conclude that there were links to al-Qaeda (just not to the 9/11 attacks). And they did find that sarin gas bomb that had about a gallon of sarin gas.
                    • Re:bite me asshat. (Score:5, Insightful)

                      by say (191220) <.on.hadiarflow. .ta. .evgis.> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:33AM (#10190670) Homepage

                      Chechnian rebels are also Islamic fundamentalists

                      Understanding the world in terms of Christianity/Islam isn't going to get you anywhere. The Chechnian rebels are now Islamic, but they used to be secular - non-religious. They are Islamic now, but they are obviously different from Al-Qaeda. They have territorial claims, Al-Qaeda has not.

                      Actually, the way the Russians have treated the Chechnian people makes quite good soil for fundamentalism. Just like the US and Iraq, I suppose.

                • Re:bite me asshat. (Score:5, Insightful)

                  by rhakka (224319) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @12:01PM (#10191150)
                  Are you trying to show a possible trend with a single data point?

                  Well gee, I thought we'd have INFINITE ATTACKS PER MINUTE after 9/11, so YEAH, we're doing GREAT!!!!!

                  Or maybe I thought that since the last terrorist large scale action on our soil (oklahoma city 1995) occurred six years earlier, that we could expect another attack within six years! We're over halfway now, so far so good huh!

                  Or maybe I thought that sine the last FOREIGN large scale attack on our soil (pearl harbor, 1941) that we'd see another one within SIXTY years.

                  What are you, an idiot? We're doing pretty well because there hasn't been another attack here? Tell you what; when we get Iraq calmed down, let me know, and I'll agree we've done anything to calm down terrorism. Until then, all we know is that we haven't been attacked again yet. We are in no way secure from such an attack, nor will we ever be. Pretending we are is just wishful thinking.
                • Re:bite me asshat. (Score:5, Insightful)

                  by CGP314 (672613) <CGP@NosPAM.ColinGregoryPalmer.net> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @12:19PM (#10191417) Homepage
                  How many terrorism related deaths have there been in the US since 9/11... The War on Terror needs to be fought, maybe differently than it has been, but in terms of the US, things are going pretty well.

                  "There's not a single bear in sight--the 'Bear Patrol' is working like a charm".

                  "That's specious reasoning,"

                  "Thanks, honey,"

                  "According to your logic, this rock keeps tigers away"

                  "Hmmm. How does it work?"

                  "It doesn't."

                  "How so?"

                  "It's just a rock. But I don't see a tiger, anywhere."

                  "Lisa, I want to buy your rock."


                  -Colin [colingregorypalmer.net]
                  • by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @12:26PM (#10191517)
                    Semantic check:

                    "Either that, or the complete absence of terrorist strikes in the US since 9/11 indicates -- not that we are fighting "terror" and winning -- but that there is no terrorist threat to the United States of America."

                    Statistically - you are far Far FAR more likely to be killed on the highway then by a terrorist.

                    Statistically - you are more likely to be killed by someone in your own family than by a terrorist.

                    (neither of those statistics include people killed in foreign countries)

                    So, there IS a terrorist threat to the citizens of the USofA. Just not much of one. But that RARITY in itself leads the media to cover it completely out of proportion to the likelyhood of it happening again.

                    Now, is there a terrorist threat to the USofA? No.

                    Nothing any terrorist can do will EVER destroy the USofA. Under no circumstances will we overthrow our existing government and install a Muslim theocracy.

                    On the other hand, we can slip into a fundamentalist theocracy (see Bush and Co.) or a corporate-based fascist state. But that won't be because Osama did anything. That will be because WE voted for it and allowed it.
                • Re:bite me asshat. (Score:5, Insightful)

                  by Theaetetus (590071) <danrose@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @12:21PM (#10191441) Homepage Journal
                  Kerry came back testifying how horrible it was for him and his shipmates to have had to become war criminals, knowing full well that they weren't.

                  Did criminal actions take place during the war? Yes. Were those criminal actions performed by US Servicemen? Yes. Therefore, yes, they were war criminals. But Kerry wasn't coming back to say "Bob Jones - he's a criminal. Fred Murphy - he's a criminal too. Lock my fellow veterans up". He came back to say "this war and the policies behind it are wrong, it was started on a false premise, and criminal policies are being handed down as 'orders'." Kinda like the one in Iraq now - false premises (WMDs), and criminal policies (Abu Gharib).

                  He did throw his medals, or ribbons, or whatever at the whitehouse in protest, yet still manages to conjure them up today.

                  If you don't know what he threw - medals, ribbons, or whatever - how can you complain when he shows something? Maybe he's wearing the medals now, and he threw his ribbons (don't see him wearing his ribbons, do you?). Or maybe, as you say, he threw his 'whatever', and it's still lying on the Whitehouse lawn.

                  -T

          • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:57AM (#10191080)

            Besides, what was stated was completely true - Gore won the recount in the vast majority of counting methods

            Actually, this is not true. The fact is that Gore did not win the state in any of the recounts. And when the media did their own recount, Bush won using every recount standard except for the one that his lawyers were arguing should be used if a recount was to take place.

            US Supreme Court respected states rights and not stepped in

            I love it when people try to talk about "states' rights" without understanding what it means. The idea of "states' rights" means that the federal government should not interfere with the rights that the states hold under the Constitution. It also means that states should not exceed their rights and try to interfere with the government's rights. States do not have the right to violate the US Constitution and infringe upon the powers explicitly granted to the federal government.
            Article 1, Section 4 of the Constitution states (emphasis added)

            The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the
            Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

            And Congress did pass a law several years ago requiring that any disputes over the election of delegates to the Electorial College must be resolved under the laws that were in place on the day of the election. These means that the attempts of the Florida courts to change and create new law (by changing deadlines and creating a statewide recount) to help Gore were a violation of that federal law.

            The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees citizens equal protection under the law, yet the Florida Supreme Court's final ruling created a situation where a voter's ballot could be counted differently depending on what county he voted in. This would hardly be equal treatment. When that ruling was issued, even the Chief Justice of the Florida Supreme Court said that the ruling would not survive a test of its Constitutionality and by a 7-2 ruling, the US Supreme Court said that it was unconstitutional (yes it was a 7-2 vote, the 5-4 ruling was only about what remedy should be ordered)


            Any claim by Moore that Gore won Florida is best described by Shakesphere's words -

            A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
              • by aixou (756713) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:54AM (#10191041)
                Everything there has already been debunked in the War Room. If you want to discuss specifics with me, don't just post a link, post a particular. If not, every time you point me to that site, I'll point you to the War Room.


                No, the war room skirts around the issues. Read more closesly at Kopel's page, he includes counters of Michael's "War room" counter arguments. There is so much goddamn spin and sleight of hand in F911 that it's difficult for me to take seriously at all. It's not that he isn't mostly accurate factually, its that he implies so much bullshit that you begin to drown in it half way though.

                Carefully read through kopels page [davekopel.com], and then read Moore's counter arguments, before you come to a decision on just how good of fact check Moore's war room does.
                • A modest proposal (Score:5, Insightful)

                  by The Conductor (758639) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @12:22PM (#10191457)
                  A simpler suggestion to the Slashdot masses...don't bother with any of it, the film, the critique, the counter-critique, the counter-counter-critique, the whole lot of it. Your time is better spent finding better sources of political analysis than a Hollywood-style movie.

                  Watching Winslet & DeCaprio cavorting around is entertaining and all (and the fact that both characters die by the end of the film is an extra bonus), and attention to historical detail makes a film seem more immediate and "puts you in the story," but if you want to know why Titanic sank, you should look elsewhere. Even if every detail is scrupulously correct, that doesn't make it useful. Why treat contemporary politics differently?

        • by Rui del-Negro (531098) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:55AM (#10191048) Homepage
          If I interview 20 people and 6 of them agree with me and I only use those 6 to support my point of view even though 14 disagreed then did I represent "fact"?

          Yes. Documentaries are not statistics and are not reporting. A documentary is simply a movie based on real people and real events, period. Documentarists have always presented their point of view - in fact, most people agree that that's preciely the point of documentaries (Moore actually got the highest american award for best documentary, remember?).

          Unfortunately, some people (like you) think that the only people allowed to express their point of view are the ones they agree with. Maybe you should apply for a job with the KGB (or, the way things are going, with the Bush administration).

          If you think anything in Fahrenheit 9/11 is a lie, sue Moore and get rich. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people willing to finance your legal expenses (as long as they don't have to go public). For some reason no-one has...

          And if you think that "the other side of the story" stands up, go make a documentary showing it (it's not as if you need a huge budget or a big crew). Again, for some reason no-one has...

          RMN
          ~~~
      • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:39AM (#10189707)
        And Ann Coulter's book where she accuses everyone who was ever a democrat of Treason?

        Or any other similar book?

        How about the Swift Boat veterans, at least one of whom recived his bronze star for the same combat action that never happened that Kerry was awarded for. Or the one who stood next to Kerry eight years ago and praised his valor under fire during that same combat action that never happened?

        How about those republicans who claim that the Clintons "may have" had up to seventy people murdered?

        How about the 70 million dollar investigation of a sub-million dollar land deal where everyone lost money, and blow jobs? Compared to the indescretions of the company Cheney headed with many millions in mistated earnings, the subsequent defrauding of the government in no-bid contracts, and energy industry meetings the American people aren't allowed to know the substance of for no reason beyond "I would prefer not to."

        Is Moore a paragon of unassailable objective truth? Hell no. But he's a lot better than those of opposing idiology. He's simply misleading. On the other side of the aisle, they're out and out making shit up with no basis in fact. That's the fucking crime in all this. And the republicans brought it on themselves. Just wait, since it looks like Bush is going to win. Why on Earth would the Democrats NOT adopt the exact same tactics as the republicans next time around?
    • by Max Threshold (540114) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:22AM (#10189388)
      There aren't really that many Bush supporters. Do you know any? I've met about three. The official polls simply reflect how many votes Diebold is planning to give him.
    • Re:Hell yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Pharmboy (216950) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:25AM (#10189431) Journal
      Unemployment is currently at the same level that Clinton ran on in the 1996 election, 5.4%.

      Presidents don't make jobs. In the best case, they can get the hell out of the way of the companies that do make jobs. I hate it that your friends don't have jobs, but perhaps you need to look elsewhere for answers. As for me, I just sold a business because I could not get quality employees. It became too big a hassle. Then again, in my 40 years, I have never been more than two weeks without a job, and never accepted unemployment checks, choosing a lower job until I could work my way back up instead. I guess its just a matter of choice.

      Who is President simply does not affect jobs the way so many state, but I guess it does make some feel better if they have someone to blame for what is likely just bad luck.
        • Re:Hell yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

          by gcaseye6677 (694805) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @11:45AM (#10190910)
          Call me a cynic, but I have a hard time believing that a site called anyonebutbush.com is an objective source of facts and information. If you want to read such a site for your amusement, go right ahead, but to cite it in an argument as a factual source will not convince anyone who was not already a Bush basher.
    • Re:Not Fox (Score:5, Interesting)

      by WindBourne (631190) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:26AM (#10189442) Journal
      Actually, I could see Fox doing it. They go for money. By running the movie, they would control all the ads that are displayed and they could come on with commentary about the movie. IOW, turn it from semi-documentary to a true mocumentary.
    • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rlglende (70123) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:27AM (#10189461)

      Democracy is an unstable form of government. That is why the US Constitution specified a republic, and why the move to and adulation of DEMOCRACY has been a bad idea.

      The manipulation of the mob is always easy, and modern media and concentrated media ownership has mad it even easier. Now, even a boob like Bush can succeed.

      The US Constitution also tried to limit government power to prevent a boob like Bush from doing great damage. Too bad we ignore those parts of the Constitution, also.

      Lew
    • by Microlith (54737) on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:30AM (#10189528)
      Short circuiting the democratic process would be more akin to abusing those electronic voting machines.

      This is broadcasting a political message in an attempt to influence voters. This is -pure- politics, and purely a part of the free, democratic process we claim to hold so dear (yet see abused every time.)
      • by ImaLamer (260199) <john.lamar@gmail . c om> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:40AM (#10189720) Homepage Journal
        Two CNN commentators just joind the Kerry campaign, and they are still doing there shows on CNN

        But... do they cover Kerry? Fox's man covering Bush in 2000 had family (his wife) in the Bush campaign. How could he be objective?


        In 2000 a CNN anchor started to work for Gore and they removed him from all Gore stories because of the appearance of impropriety.

        Read the script of Outfoxed [tinyurl.com], see page 73 I believe.

    • Re:I know why (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mrsev (664367) <mrsev AT spymac DOT com> on Wednesday September 08 2004, @10:46AM (#10189843)
      As I come form the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean (Europe) I find it difficult to understand what the fuss is about. The headline says"...whether Moore's movie presents truth or propaganda, one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote."

      The show 9/11 clearly states a point of view(In this case from Moore), dont like it make your own film. And so what , you have the freedom of speech and he has the right to use it. As regards the idea of truth. Are we to assume that all other shows, that night, depict the "truth".

      Maybe because I come from a country where political debate is common and the people represented by a spectrum of views, I find this kind of pro/anti arguments a little strange.

      The communist party says one thing (and most people laugh) the center-left says another, the center-right another. Nobody would expect a film to depict the Truth(Tm). Only with actual news programs are facts expected to be proved(editorial and comments are not).

      I always get the impression form the US that they consider themselves to be the world experts on Democracy. To be quite honest I see little to be impressed about.