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Venezuela Moves Further Toward Open Source
Posted by
michael
on Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:32 AM
from the leading-the-way dept.
from the leading-the-way dept.
baquiano writes "Today the Venezuelan press reports that the government has formally issued a decree (English translation) which prioritizes the use of free/open source software over proprietary systems in government entities. This follows a year of pilot deployments in Venezuela's Info Centros (Internet public access points) and some ministries. (Past attempts, reported by Slashdot, by former Minister of Science and Technology Felipe Perez Marti to push ahead this initiative were allegedly foiled by Microsoft.) The decree calls for plans to actively deploy FOSS during a 24-month period."
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Great, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't mean to be too cynical, but I'm sure even the Venezualan people would admit that they are not the foremost force in world IT. Quite right, this is a victory for Open Source, but could we save the dancing in the streets for when a slightly more major player joins our side?
This reminds me of Bush's hilarious "You forgot Poland!" in the first presidential debate.
Re:Great, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Eventually theres so many penguins, the crowd accidently pushes one happless penguin into the water.
All the penguins shutup and stare at the volunteer. If he doesn't get eaten, all the penguins start diving into the water in a continuous flow.
We need countries like Venezuala to openly use FOSS so that other countries can gather courage and join them.
I just hope that this isn't another maneuver to get better pricing.
Parent
Re:Great, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
I just hope that this isn't another maneuver to get better pricing.
I just hope they don't get eaten by a seal.
--
Ryan
Re:Great, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
At the beginning of the Fox Administration in Mexico, they announced a big program to bring computers to more public schools, libraries and rural areas. The chosen software? Microsoft's. This was a stabb in the back for the software industry in our country: so instead of spending millions of dollars in promoting the in-house developement of software (which would, eventually, help the growth of ALL kind of software developement, not just educational programs or GUI localizations), which would have created more jobs in that sector, the government chose to give all that cash to a foreign company. The cash for all those MS licences goes to Bill's pockets, insted of going to the Mexican software and IT engineers, enterpreaneurs, and jobs derivated from those businesses.
And no, it's not a xenophobic, anti-American thing. It's a matter of a lost chance to help the Mexican economy, in an age where it's (again.. sigh) losing its place in the global map.
Parent
Re:Great, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
A country of 25,000,000+ people? That's major enough progress to make the daily news for me!
If even a fraction of the Venezualan programming population get involved in open source that will mean significant improvements for open source software producers, packagers and consumers world wide. Remember, one of the most valuable attributes of software is that it can be copied at minimal cost. All it takes is a single person to program it and a hundred millio
Re:Victory? (Score:4, Insightful)
Having said that, it's not inconceivable they're trying to get bargaining power with Microsoft, but I find it more likely that they really are committed to saving money and sticking two fingers up to the US (which hates them).
Parent
Re:Victory? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry bud, you've been listening to the CIA propaganda a little too much. Chavez defeated an incumbent in a democratically held election in a landslide victory.
It doesn't get more democratic than that. The real wannabe dictator is the President-select publicly endorsed by Dubbya who only managed to seize and hold to power for less than twenty four hours.
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Re:Victory? (Score:4, Insightful)
don't forget that he defeated the right wing in a failed atempt of a coup and was kept in power after winning a recall poll. he has twice the legitimacy as your warrior president, george junior.
plus, a "decree" is not just a tool for dictators. other full fledged democracies have the so called "decree". assume the word to be little more than a regulation signed by the president of a democratic nation exerting the powers granted to him/her by the constitution. nothing that a rule from congress or from the supreme court can't overturn.
Parent
Re:Victory? (Score:5, Informative)
Nice troll... but since I've seen other misinformed posts been modded up, I feel the need to reply.
First, Chavez is not a dictator. He was democratically elected, and recently won a referendum on his mandate, which was endorsed by international observers. Also, I can personally tell you that the Venezuelan media enjoys a high degree of freedom and independence, the opposition has never been outlawed, and Venezuelans have all their civil rights protected by the Constitution. The problem with Chavez is his tendency to inflamatory speeches, his ultra-nationalistic rhetoric, and his close friendship with Fidel Castro, which gives the casual observer the impression that he's a classic communist dictator. But if you dig a little deeper you will find out that's far from being so. If you judge him by what he has actually done (opposed to what he merely said in ultra-patriotic rallies and speeches directed toward their partisans), you conclude that's he's no more left-leaning than Brazilian President Lula or Argentinian Nestor Kirchner. And no one is accussing the latter two of being dictators.
Second, this step from Venezuela may have important implications for Latin America. If a country manages to successfully switch an important part of his governmental software infrastructure to FOSS, it might start a landslide of investment in FOSS in other Latin American countries, as the local goverment is usually the biggest spender in IT in Latin American countries.
Third, this is not a ploy to getter deal from Microsoft (they already did that), since is a decree -- that means it's official policy, not something you can casually use to bargain a better deal from a vendor.
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A positive development ...? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:A positive development ...? (Score:4, Informative)
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Exactly (Score:2)
Does open vs closed source really matter when the government ends up owning and controlling all the software?
Re:Exactly (Score:2)
It does for Slashdot. Venezuela would suddenly become one of the bad guys though if the MPAA/RIAA were to get the Venezuelan government to crack down on
Washington accused of trying to "remove" him (Score:2)
Well if Washington has its way [npr.org], he might be around for much longer.
Re:A positive development ...? (Score:3, Interesting)
In effect, the Chavez government is providing A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, something the bourgeois hat
Re:A positive development ...? (Score:5, Insightful)
The law does not bust down hard on any dissent. Neither does it will shut down stations for content contrary to the security of the nation. What the law restricts is the broadcasts of mild language, sex or violent images from 7:00 am to 11:00 on open T.V. I don't condone this law, but it's not fair to say that it will end with dissidence in Venezuela.
There's more about the Bolivarian revolution than "being more like Cuba" and what the U.S. media tells. But when this gets the way of the interest of the wealthier american corporate interests, some nasty things happen, and depending of who owns the media, you will see only one side of the story.
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Re:A positive development ...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's try a thought experiment. Let us say that two years ago, the Democratic party leadership, with the help of the wealthiest people in the country, and with foreign endorsement and aid from, say, FRANCE, overran the White House, held Bush prisoner, and declared the 2000 election invalid on ideological grounds. And they failed to overturn the government.
Then, later, those Democrats faked up a recall election, which failed.
HOW FAST WOULD BUSH HAVE BEEN BUSTING DOWN HARD ON ANY DAMNED BODY HE WANTED TO? How many people in Gitmo getting razors up their backsides? How many new "security" measures cracking down on the First Amendment? How many dead in the street as he sent in the freakin' Marines? If past behavior is any guide, he'd have laughed as people were mowed down in the street.
Chavez has been far, far more lenient on traitors than Bush ever, EVER would be.
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Re:to play devil's advocate... (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you even know what you're talking about? The Venezuelan private television channels all participated in the Coup. Chavez's reaction wasn't ugly if you consider what they did in the first place.
Re:A positive development ...? (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, how much do you know about Cuba? It is a country standing on its own with US's embargo continuing over years, not to mention CIA's attempts to destabilize it. Everyone thought they would collapse after the USSR, but they survive. Maybe they do something right? Their health care system, infant mortality rate and many other markers for "good life" are better than USA :-).
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A few questions.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, if what you say is true and it is the US that is the totalitarian dictatorship, shouldn't the people requesting political asylum be traveling in the other direction?
Also, why is it that the people who tell me Cuba is such an enlightened society with low infant mortality and high literacy have NEVER, EVER actually LIVED in Cuba?
This is what passes for "Insightful" on
Parent
So, shall we add MS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not just MS (Score:2)
This would apply equally to Apple et al.
Say what you will about Macs, I for one would hate to be involved in government printing down there once this kicks in.
'Foiled'? (Score:4, Funny)
Anybody got tape on this, so to speak?
Re:'Foiled'? (Score:2)
Naw, he's got an army of evil monkeys [bbspot.com] to do those sorts of things for him.
it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:5, Insightful)
...how Microsoft can get away with determining the priorities and policies of foreign governments. How often in history does a private enterprise have this much power?
In any case, I applaud Venezuela now for actually paying attention to this kind of thing. Think about how many other issues they have to deal with, yet they still managed to account for stuff like this (cost to government for software). Look at where we are in many other countries, including the US. How many government officials here in America could you actually convince to launch a campaign promoting free software? Not many, if any.
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
It could happen. Really. I'm not deluding myself!
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:3, Insightful)
How often in history does a private enterprise have this much power?
All too often, especially in the United States.
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
The use of linux is multiplied year to year. Its popularity has extended between the countries of the first world and those that are in via of development, and has overturned the glance, before indifferent, of the great corporations that make business with the technologies of the information.
For great justice!
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:5, Insightful)
The government has no place doing this sort of promotion. Their job is to use whatever works the best. We have enough problems with ideology in this country - no sense adding more to the fire.
-Erwos
Parent
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
The job of a government is also, hopefully, to spend taxpayers' money wisely. I have no idea what kind of IT infrastructure the Venezuelan government has, but I know for damn sure that the US government wastes tens, perhaps hundreds, of billions of tax dollars paying giant companies for closed, proprietary systems t
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:3, Interesting)
Waste is waste. It doesn't matter if its Open or Closed Source, it will still cost a huge amount and still barely work because it is the government.
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
[sigh] The computer you used to write that message, and the entire internet infrastructure that allowed it to be posted in a public forum, are largely the results of decades of government and government-funded R&D. The ideological conviction that governments are always inefficient (and the corollary, that private corporations are always efficient) is pur
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
Waste is waste. It doesn't matter if its Open or Closed Source, it will still cost a huge amount and still barely work because it is the government.
I disagree. Mostly because open source software used by the government, with improvements funded by the government, will not just be used by the government. If the USA decided it needed a secure web browser with some very specific features they could hire contractors to write one, buy an existing one, or hire someone to modify an existing open source browse
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
As far as I am concerned the gov't, in as much as it is possible, should let the citizens of the country KEEP THEIR MONEY. When you are talking about spending money wisely, you have already lost part of the battle--the one where you are only required to support the bare essentials of government, such as military and police (and a very few other programs, medicine being of debatable utility in the hands of gov't).
You are right though, when the gov't is spend
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:2)
How often in history does a private enterprise have this much power?
Well their were the Medici family, Catholic Church, Knights Templar, Guilds, etc. I'd say all of those qualify. Money has been a power for a long time. Democracy has in many ways made governments less repressive, but people are power hungry, and if they can't gain dominion through force of arms and a repressive government, they will do so with private organizations and subversion of law.
How many government officials here in America c
The East India Company did (Score:2, Informative)
Re:it never ceases to amaze me... (Score:5, Informative)
The Knights Templar had a massive amount of wealth and loaned it to kings and people all around the world effectively making them the first bank. Philip the Fair (French) got together with the Pope to have them rounded up and killed. Before then they were big-time movers and shakers in European governments and by Papal bull were allowed to do things like levy taxes and receiving tithes.
The Dutch East Indies company was comparable to the Guild (Dune reference) in their control over trade around the world. There's more to it, but they were satisfied with their control.
When Standard Oil was broken up into it's subsidiaries you had 5 American companies plus the British Shell Oil looking into South America for new prospects. Because companies had become so heavily aligned with specific countries the only way for one company to be able to prospect on what was thought to be fertile ground was by getting the country they worked in to expand its borders in that direction. At least two wars were started in South America in order to expand a border onto prospective new ground. In both of those wars it was found that there was no oil there anyway and the governments sponsoring the wars got paid nothing in return for their actions.
There was this guy named Rhodes who got a scholarship named after him. He basically got the British government to protect him as he invaded Zulu territory for diamonds. He simultaneously sold the Zulu some firearms which, upon notice by the British, made them important enough to wipe out. From then on that diamond operation has controlled the interests of South Africa.
Today's offenders: OPEC, U.S. media conglomerates, varying world telecoms, Microsoft, and China (a giant unionized manufacturing company, they count right?)
Parent
one down (Score:2)
but i guess this is a good win for Open Source, it can't be bad
The year is 2015... (Score:5, Funny)
"We need to defend liberty and freedom everywhere," World Leader Gates said. "If we don't stop open source overseas, we'll soon be fighing Linux in our own homes."
Next week, in Caracas... (Score:2)
It depends which Castro's Cuba (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I suspect Chavez says most of it for effect. He obviously enjoys pissing off the Yanquis. Once upon a time, when the UK had been largely isolated from European in-fighting, the English enjoyed pissing off the Continentals by mocking their political theories and their habits. It was a way of relieving the tension of living next to powerful neighbors who might turn nasty at any moment.
Unfortunately the US has a remarkable degree of paranoia about any country that turns even mildly pink in what it sees as its own backyard. The result has been gross overreaction in places like Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba and, most ludicrously of all, Grenada. It's not surprising that the poor people of the South can easily be made to see the US as the enemy. I hope that the FOSS movement can remain sufficiently politically neutral that it is seen as favoring no particular economic model, but that it will flourish in any economy where independent thought and individual cooperation are valued. The strong German contribution to FOSS, along with the input from the former USSR/Warsaw Pact bloc, suggests that this may well happen. In the meantime, let's not confuse a noisy politician with a country.
Re:Decrees are generally bad things (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead they shove shit down your throw with:
- Monopolies
- Laws(Decrees and Laws are really the same thing)
- Financial pressure
- Political pressure
If you actually want to put FOSS in place in most governments there almost has to be a "decree" of some kind. Otherwise an army of software salesmen from places like Microsoft are going to work over, pressure or bribe the people making the purchasing decision to buy their crap. After all civil servents aren't wasting their money they are wasting tax dollars and they could care less if they pass on the low cost option and waste money on Microsoft's software especially if they are being bribed. FOSS doesn't have the army of salesmen which are the free markets "decree" enforcers.
Assuming you are American, and live in a country that is the home of the Patriot Act, the DMCA, software patents, monopolies and cartels(Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, etc), a government that is almost completely owned by lobbyists, corporations and special interest money, that is arresting and holding people without due process, is promoting the use of torture around the world, routinely toppling sovereign governments and replacing them with two bit dictators, you don't really have a leg to stand on to preach to the rest of the world about "democratic societies". The U.S. only vaguely knows what they are and its increasingly not what you have in the U.S.
Fact is places like China and Cuba have a lot more in common with the U.S. than they differ. The tools for controlling people are just somewhat more subtle, though they seem to be getting less subtle with each passing year under the new regime. And of course most American companies seem to be quite fond having all their work done in China by workforce under repression so increasingly if you it comes down to be "free" in America and unemployed or "repressed" in China and have a job though under generally bad conditions.
In China or Cuba they throw you in jail just for being a dissident. In America if you don't go along with the system you run a substantial risk of unemployment, homelessness, death on the streets, or being thrown in prison via things like the "War on Drugs" or by the IRS.
I point out the IRS because it abuse of tax records was a favorite tool of Nixon's to attack his political opponents and someone attempted to renable abusing tax records for political purposes in the recent intelligence reform bill. It was caught only at the very last second when someone actually speed read the bill before it was passed. Actually reading legislation before its passed is increasingly rare in the Congress which is also undemocratic. The new regime often writes it behind closed doors and then tries to rush it through before anyone can read it, let alone understand it.
Also, in case you haven't looked lately the U.S. has one of the highest per capita prison populations of any country in the world.
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Don't really see this having much effect (Score:5, Informative)
Personally I don't see this having any effect other than public offices changing to linux and open source programs. It will give more jobs in the public sector to programmers, which is a good thing considering the huge unemployment right now, but the regular people will just continue using their pirated copies of programs. To put things in perspective, I live in the 4th biggest city in the country, and where the electricity (hydro) for most of Venezuela and part of Colombia and Brazil is generated, plus a big producer of iron, steel, aluminum and lots of other minerals exported worldwide... but yet I don't know of any place here where I could buy legitimate software.. while at the same time just walking from my home to work everyday I pass in front of at least 4 places that sell pirated DVDs, music and software.. and I don't mean shady places in the back of a van or soemthing, but huge places with neon signs advertising pirated stuff for sale... heck, I've seen several next to police stations with police people buying on them frequently. People here just don't know about open source, because there's just not a culture of paying for software at all, most people don't even realize that buying a burned CD with the latest software on it, a crack and a serial written on the label is illegal... and last time I heard of something being done about it was 4 or 5 years ago when the BSA did a campaign against piracy, closed down several stores and placed fines on people... and things were back again like it was before within a week.
If I had to guess, I'd say this is more about president Chavez sticking it up to the US in any way he can (after all, we're talking about a guy that called Bush an asshole in public chained TV.. and for those that don't know "chained" means that the president can "chain" all the public TV and radio stations so that they're forced to display whatever he wants, usually him giving one of his 2 or 3+ hours speeches, which he does very frequently... times like those makes me feel pity for those that can't afford cable TV), and as I said, I really doubt it'll have any effect outside of the public offices... and if the ones I've gone to, in this city and in the capitol, even then they have so few computers and so outdated the effect will be minimal... we use to joke around that anytime we hear the sound of an old style typewriter (that old tac-tac-tac), that it sounds like a public office.. :)
Re:Don't really see this having much effect (Score:3, Interesting)
Good and Bad (Score:4, Funny)
This is where MS flexes their corporate muscle--they make CTOs feel good about spending m/billions on their solutions.
If MS and Open Source were men:
Open Source would be the quiet mysterious geek who can't utter a sentence without geek speak but is pretty nice looking and gentle. He's sincere and eager but doesn't have lots of money. He's usually polite and makes you feel quite comfortable though you have to pay for his meals now and then.
MS would be the tall, dark, and handsome fraternity boy with a new Porsche who slips you some Rohypnol and you wake up naked and screwed with an empty wallet. He throws wild parties at your place but doesn't check the guest list very well. Your stuff keeps getting stolen and you keep finding creeps living and hiding in your closets. You notice on the wall that you have a marriage certificate on the wall and it's signed in your blood. You're Mrs. Satan.
Maybe I took that a little too far...but you get the point.
It might not be an economic powerhouse (Score:3, Insightful)
The FOSS in Venezuela (Well Explained) (Score:4, Informative)
I dont think that Venezeula is making choices here (Score:2)
Re:I dont think that Venezeula is making choices h (Score:3, Insightful)
They say the first casualty of war is the Truth. This applies when talking of software FUD wars as well as politics...
Re:I dont think that Venezeula is making choices h (Score:5, Insightful)
I... just don't understand how the Right's brains work. You just carry your own reality around with you in a self-contained bubble? You literally do not hear anything which contradicts your version of the universe?
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