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Dutch A.G. Supports Scientology v. Spaink Verdict
Posted by
timothy
on Sun Mar 20, 2005 03:22 AM
from the been-spainked dept.
from the been-spainked dept.
bbc writes "ISP XS4All reports that the Dutch Attorney-General advises against reversal of the last verdict in the Scientology vs. Karin Spaink case (part of Scientology's War on the Internet). A series of court battles between writer Spaink and the Church of Scientology has changed the copyright landscape of the internet in the Netherlands. In an early case, linking to infringing documents was considered infringement itself. Later this was reversed, although by then several unrelated cases (notably Deutsche Bahn v. Indymedia) had been decided on the basis of this judgement. On appeals, the court held that free speech sometimes trumps copyright: even though Spaink may have infringed on the Church's copyright, she was allowed to do so to bring to light the doings of what she considers an evil sect.
According to the XS4All document, not only did the Attorney-General uphold the decision that Free Speech can trump Copyright, but concluded also that there may not have been infringement. The Attorney-General feels a work can be considered published even if publication happened against the will of the author. In the Netherlands, the Supreme Court can only reverse previous decisions by lower courts. Before it renders a verdict, it asks the Attorney-General for advice."
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AG supports Spaink, not $cientology (Score:5, Informative)
Re:AG supports Spaink, not $cientology (Score:5, Funny)
Anyone who disagrees with this will be assimilated into my personal machiavellian dossier and will expect a knock on the door from my high powered galatic warrior attorneys.
Parent
The what? (Score:5, Informative)
The summary doesn't clarify? Did you even read the summary?
According to the XS4All document, not only did the Attorney-General uphold the decision that Free Speech can trump Copyright, but concluded also that there may not have been infringement.
I can understand not reading the articles, but not even bothering to read the complete article summary? Sheesh!
Parent
Re:The what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if the summary should explain what the article is about, then the title should do likewise. It takes a lot of careful parsing to interpret that title correctly. If someone writes a title that will be read by thousands, whose burden is it to be careful?
I simply do not have the time to read all the articles that appear on slashdot and elsewhere. Well-written titles help me to choose quickly which articles I will read.
Parent
Re:AG supports Spaink, not $cientology (Score:3, Funny)
Like a microsoft SP?
War on internet? (Score:5, Funny)
"Scientology's War on the Internet"
For a minute there I read that as "Slashdot's War on anything that isn't internet"
Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Hmm (Score:4, Funny)
This means one thing. Scientologists are not regular metamodders.
Parent
How do you steam clams??? (Score:5, Funny)
Make fun of their religion.
Parent
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Informative)
You know, I just went to the Church of Scientology's website and took their "How 'toxic' are you?" quiz [scientology.org].
Funnily, no matter what your score is, they give you the same results [scientology.org].
The effects of drugs and toxic residues can send your whole life crashing. These substances put you in a condition which not only prohibits and destroys your physical health, but prevents any stable advancement in mental or spiritual well-being.
Like a fresh stream of crystal clear water, the Purification Program gets rid of the devastating effects of drugs and toxins so they no longer block your clear thinking and enthusiasm for life. This breakthrough discovery by L. Ron Hubbard has helped hundreds of thousands lead happier, more perceptive and aware lives.
And even if you gave No to everything [scientology.org], they still try to convince you.
You answered "YES" to 0 of the 10 questions.
You still could have a level of accumulated toxins in your body which can affect your ability to think clearly.
Followed by Blah blah blah on how polluted your body is.
Just change the count=0 in the querystring and you can see for yourselves =)
Sheesh, what a bunch of kooks.
Parent
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Like, get rid of all the effects of the beer and pot I do? Dear lord, these people really ARE evil and must be stopped!
Parent
My 5cient0logy experiece (Score:5, Interesting)
Come with friends, don't go alone! Those people are nutty. I was there last year in the spring with three of my friends. It was a wierd and interesting experience. We got there and there were all these, what seemed like zombies walking around. All with perpetual smiles on their faces, dressed in business suites with ties and women in nice dresses. Very clean and very spooky. We made up fake names, addresses, phones, and such and made up some problems we have (Sc1ent0log1sts like to tell you how messed up you are so they can "help you". Make sure to have stuff for them to bite on - "addicted to Slashdot" - that would work).
You do get to tour the building but you have to watch their tape, that ends in the "convert to 5cientology or die and suffer" type of message, quite amusing!
Then you can get young cute zombie girls to try to convince you to sign up for courses just so you can find out about 5cientol0gy. I had fun with mine, she was 17 and came from Michigan. Scient0logy, she claims, helped her cure some chronic sinus problem. Instead of talking about me and my problems she ended up running back and forth to her supervisor / boss for answers. I asked for scientific data and she gave me an evil look mixed with a sigh, "not one of those again..." then she brought me books written by Ron. I could hardly hold myself from laughing.
The saddest thing to see was when we toured the basement and they have all these saunas there. In the sauna, supposedly, you get your toxins out by staying in the steam until you pass out and drink overpriced herb tea. And there I saw this old Asian woman, who couldn't speak English too well. She was sitting down by the sauna center looking around like she was scared and lost. Hovering around her was another one of those cute zobmie clones, trying to persuade her to sign up for another "amazing" sauna experience. The old lady was nervously smilling and politely nodding her head. Of course she was going to sign up for another $1000 sauna clensing session, there is was no way she could resist those vultures. I felt sick to my stomach, she will probably end up giving them all her retirement money. Ron sure came up with the perfect scheme to make money.
Then we saw Ron's office, where (of course!) his spirit is still present, and then the library, where they almost forced us to buy the great works by Ron.
In the library, I saw those pseudo-lie detectors they use, basically a skin resistance meter. At RadioShack they are $30, at the "Celebrity Center" they are $4000! I was told they measure "mental mass". I thought of asking what the units are and how they are derived from other known physical quantities, but I thought I shouldn't piss them off too bad, I saw how nutty they really were by then and started to be a little scared. Then we left.
Anyway, it was a fun experience. Though I would share it. Anyone else had any interesing encounters with those people?
Parent
Re:My 5cient0logy experiece (Score:5, Funny)
Back in my student years, I once got stuck in Amsterdam without money in the summer and was looking for some work. I've just came from Russia and Amsterdam was my first Western city.
First of all, I got angry at our communists back home for forbidding simple pleasures that the West was taking for granted: topless sunbathing in parks, bars with marijuana menu and red shop windows with nice girls on display. So I was determined to get a proper local job and integrate in this advanced society.
I went on a busy central street and started knocking on doors of offices and restaurants. The first office I came across turned out to be very friendly. They took me upstairs to the floor that looked like a library, except they had only one book with a volcano on the cover.
A very nice guy interviewed me and asked to fill some forms. I spent almost an hour filling a long questionnaire. Obviously, I've done my best to produce a good impression at my first job interview. But when the guy looked at my answers he became very worried. He took out a pencil and connected some dots on a piece of paper to draw something like a cardiograph chart.
"Look here, - he said. - You have a definite problem with self-esteem and ambition. If you don't do something about this right now, you'll lose everything in this life".
I was horrified. OK, I just came from Russia with a guitar and a hundred dollars in a pocket, but ambition could not be my weakest point! In fact, that was all I had then... Still, the first job interview revealed me as being totally unfit for this new life...
I declined the company's offer of courses and training to boost my self-esteem and went to a nearby coffieshop completely devastated. I was seriously thinking of giving it up and going back to Russia. Thankfully, after a while the reality started to look different...
Parent
Child of Scientology (Score:5, Interesting)
I am a child of Scientology. I was born with both parents in the church. My father is now in the Sea Org (Their elite with the long term contract) and my mother is on the Scientology list of public enemies. The church prohibits my father from speaking with me as a result. Same thing goes for my mother's sister (Yes, she's my aunt) who can't talk to her whole family. The reason? My mother is a "Suppressive Person" (SP). Anyone that communicates with her is a "Potential Trouble Source" (PTS). People in the Sea Org such as my father and aunt are not allowed to communicate directly with SPs or PTSs and heavily discouraged from using things like approved letters. My father physically abused me and I ended up in the hospital when I was younger. Yes, I remember an incident. He told my mother to go to hell and didn't speak to either of us when I was 6. Left my mother with a huge IRS debt from when they were married. His mother had sent him money to pay it and my mother thought it was taken care of. 10 years later, she starts getting threatening letters from the IRS. 10 years of IRS interest before they set "Reasonable" limits amounted to something like $15,000. It's all OK though since my mother is considered "Fair Game", right ? When I was 16 and moved out on my own to get away from my mother who's still struggling to erase the mental damage done by the church, I went to see my father and try to get to know him. He was still at a mission and wasn't subject to the harsher rules in the Sea Org. I'm a forgiving person and thought both of us could benefit from getting to know each other. I lived in the same house (Paying rent like everyone else) with 4 Scientologists total and even took a basic course at the mission my father worked at to try and understand what my father and aunt were so committed to. Man those people are are brainwashed. Reading about it isn't the same as seeing it. The best example I can give is a kid. Must have been 7 or 8 at most. He was walking around at an event at the LA building trying to recruit people. He sounded just like all the adults and had an answer for any argument you threw his way. These people live in their own subculture complete with their own laws and reasoning. A half year later, I moved out, but still visited my father when he actually used his one day off per week for personal use. Shortly after I moved out, he joined the Sea Org (He had been invited like 10 years earlier, but had a lot of responsibility at the mission he's been at). For one year, he struggled to get an exception made so he could see me. We saw each other about once every other month. He was finally getting remarried and I was going to be his best man. The last time I saw him or spoke to him, he called me for a visit. I knew something was wrong before I arrived. We went to a Burger King for lunch and he told me that he would not see me again and I could not even attend the wedding. When I asked why he keeps doing this; why he throws away everything else for the sake of Scientology, he responded, "It's all I know how to do after 20 years."
This is kind of a trimmed down version for the sake of making the post short. Maybe someday I'll talk with someone and spend a few years on a crusade with others to fully expose the church to the public eye. As long as the average persona hasn't heard of Scientology, the cult will continue to thrive and amass lost souls.
-Lucas
Parent
Re:Child of Scientology (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Child of Scientology (Score:4, Interesting)
He made the mistake of telling them how he has difficulty to communicating with others, especially girls, and that is what they wanted. He was "happy" that those people wanted to listen to him and said they can help him. They made him buy some very expensive herbal crap to drink and signed him up for courses which he is paying for. They know his address, home phone number, his parent's names, where he works and all this stuff. When I told him about who they were and what they do he was very surprized. I told him my story from the Hollywood Celebrity Center visit and told him that scient0l0gy (and dianet1cs) are not compatible with Christianity. Hopefully he listened. We've talked since over email but I didn't ask if he went back and he didn't mention it. Somehow I am afraid he did though.
Parent
You joke, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Let me be the first... (Score:5, Informative)
Xenu knows all ... (Score:5, Informative)
A sensible verdict, from humans? (Score:3, Funny)
If only the same standard of laissez-faire speech applied in Africa. According to conversations that I have had with African grey parrots from home (Africa), some have been placed in extremely small cages, with no toys, for speaking out against the lack of democracy in the "democratic" republic of Congo, and in Zimbabwe.
I know that you humans generally don't think of parrots as having the potential to usurp entrenched political structures, so I can only imagine that the situation for human dissidents is even worse.
With my species' intellect and yours'brawn, we can defeat tyranny. Please help!
spanked! (Score:4, Funny)
Sounds like Scientology (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Sounds like Scientology (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Scientoligy... please (Score:5, Interesting)
I would not call scientoligy a church , I do know the history of the scam and its amazing how many people got dragged into this hoax , the work of a sub par sci-fi writter trying to make a bit of cash(perhaps it is a church then j/k)
With the strength of the Dutch high court behind the decision i find it unlikly a reversal will hapen , which is a dammed good thing
"Although copyright resides under Article 1 of the First Protocol of EDHR and can therefore be regarded as a human right, this does not exempt copyright from being balanced against the right to freedom of information.""
I have been thinking of moving to Holland for a few years and I feel I may just do it eventualy if the court keeps churning out decisions like this.
Freedom of information is very importent to secure an even footing for people in this world , We do not need to create another poverty line
Mod me down if you must , but scientolgy is a scam and from storys i have read
it is also a dangerous organisation . I am thankfull that Germany disallows the Organisation charitable status here , i dont agree with some of germanys policys
on these matters but sometimes it is for the best
Re:Scientoligy... please (Score:5, Insightful)
In my opinion, Scientology uses its copyrights to bilk people out of money.
From what I understand, the way that you progress through the various levels of Scientology is to spend money on expensive "cleansing" sessions, e-meters, etc. Only after spending large sums of money do you actually get access to the highest-level religious texts. Only after spending large sums of money do you learn that the "religion" you're participating in is based on what I would call a fairy-tale about aliens, other planets, and various tenets which do not even remotely agree with current knowledge in the fields of biology, physics, and astronomy (three real Sciences).
It is my belief that the reason there are so many "high profile" Scientologists is that by the time they've spent thousands or even millions of dollars to learn what their religion is really about, they don't want to admit being duped or taken for a ride. Instead, they stick with the story, perhaps even convincing themselves that it's true.
Compare to the elderly people you see in the news now and then who fall for the 419 scam. First they send $5,000 to some guy in Nigeria. When nothing happens, they don't want to believe that they were scammed, so they send another $2,500 to cover the "duty fees" on their pending "$10,000,000.00 (TEN MILLION DOLLARS U.S.)" payment. Several months later after they've wired their entire life savings into a black hole, many of them still refuse to believe they were conned.
As far as I'm concerned, Scientology operates the same way. I think that Scientology is a business, not a religion, and should not have the benefits granted to religion in the US (especially the tax-exempt status).
You probably noticed how many disclaimers I've put into this post. That's because I've heard that Scientology is sue-happy, will show up and picket your house, will intimidate people you know, and will use other tactics to try and seek revenge for those who make negative comments about them. I don't want to be sued, and I'd rather not have my house picketed, so I'm doing my best to make it abundantly clear that this post contains my opinions based upon what I've heard. If you want to re-read my post and pretend that the italicized parts aren't there, that's your business.
Meanwhile, you might want to check out this petition [petitiononline.com].
Parent
Re:Scientoligy... please (Score:5, Interesting)
So, how does one take out a fake religion? Is it possible to sue? Get it declared an illegal organisation, somehow? Could we reasonably accuse them of terrorism? Your link proves I'm not the first to have this thought, but evidentally not much is happening...
Parent
Re:Scientoligy... please (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, I agree. That's a harsh, unfair, and below-the-belt insult to hard-working clowns everywhere, trying to make their living by bringing joy into the lives of children and adults alike.
So, how does one take out a fake religion?
How does one differentiate between a "fake" religion and a "real" one? What's the difference? Surely not the request for money from its followers.
Could we reasonably accuse them of terrorism?
Have they actually conducted any acts of terrorism that you know of, or are you just taking advantage of some very dangerous, loose law in your country that makes it easier to accuse someone of terrorist acts ("witch!") and have them arrested? In the latter case, shame on you for supporting that system by using it, and thus help diluting the meaning of the once properly used word "terrorist".
Parent
Re:Scientoligy... please (Score:4, Informative)
I think that terrorism is a very reasonable description of how they treat some of their apostates and critics. "Operation PC Freakout" was intended to drive early apostate/critic Paulette Cooper insane and leave her penniless with a trashed reputation.
This was not an anomaly [suppressiveperson.org].
Wikipedia defines [wikipedia.org]terrorism thusly:
Terrorism refers to the use of violence for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological goal through intimidation or by instilling fear.
Many of Scientology's actions against it's enemies percieved or otherwise can be reasonably construed as terrorism.
Parent
Reformation (Score:4, Insightful)
The reformers did not see this as much of a risk. They believed the Catholic church had many errant teachings that could easily be fixed if everyone knew what the Bible really said.
Parent
From The Scientology FAQ (Score:5, Informative)
----------------
Why do some people oppose Scientology?
There are certain characteristics and mental attitudes that cause a percentage of the population to oppose violently any betterment activity or group. This small percentage of society (roughly 2 percent) cannot tolerate that Scientology is successful at improving conditions around the world. This same 2 percent is opposed to any effective self-betterment activity. The reason they so rabidly oppose Scientology is because it is doing more to help society than any other group. Those who are upset by seeing man get better are small in number compared to the millions who have embraced Scientology and its efforts to create a sane civilization and more freedom for the individual.
Re:From The Scientology FAQ (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:From The Scientology FAQ (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do some people oppose Open Source?
There are certain characteristics and mental attitudes that cause a percentage of the population to oppose violently any betterment activity or group. This small percentage of society (roughly 2 percent) cannot tolerate that Open Source is successful at improving conditions around the world. This same 2 percent is opposed to any effective self-betterment activity. The reason they so rabidly oppose Open Source is because it is doing more to help society than any other group. Those who are upset by seeing man get better are small in number compared to the millions who have embraced Open Source and its efforts to create a sane civilization and more freedom for the individual.
/couldn't resist
Parent
Neat quote from scientology.org (Score:5, Funny)
So Happy Sunshine Week everyone!!
Not "Attorney-General" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not "Attorney-General" (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Why copyright ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Copyright law recognised this in that: a copyright was for a limited term (how long does an author live ?); and it allowed quoting of parts of the work (after reading the quote you may be enticed to buy the whole book).
The Church of Scientology (CoS) is using copyright to prevent criticism of itself. The people who it is acting against are not reproducing CoS works to make a quick buck. This is a very different scenario than was envisaged by the original authors of copyright legislation. This is a case where the judges should look at the purpose of legislation rather than the words in which it is written and, through precedent, fix it for the future. It is like when you write a program for some purpose, and using it for something extra breaks it (exposes a bug), so you fix it.
I suppose that you could say that the CoS is using copyright to protect it's financial interests, but that is through keeping potential adherents in the dark until they are well & truely hooked rather than preventing others from making a quick buck from it's works.
Anyone know when the fishman affidavit comes out of copyright ?
Be nice!!! (Score:4, Funny)
I used to be a Scientologist (Score:5, Interesting)
1) The outside world is evil or corrupt, only other culties can be trusted
2) The cult has all the answers to life's problems.
3) Cult members are special in some way, better than other people.
4) Cult members MUST adhere to the dictates of the cult leadership.
5) Anyone who leaves the cult is evil and must be destroyed
There are probably other common themes, but you get the idea.
It doesn't matter if you're talking about the Scientologists, Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Heaven's Gate cult, or any of the others, all of them to a greater or lesser degree possess these qualities.
What makes Scientology so pernicious is that it is a purely exploitive group. No one is ever helped by Scientology. It is a psychic and financial vampire that bleeds everyone it gets a hold of dry, both of their mental well-being and any assets they might have. Other cults, especially ones that have grown to the point of quasi-legitimacy and respectability, are actually a positive influence in the lives of their members as often as not. Not so with scientology. The only happy ending where scientology is involved is one where scientology is no longer in the picture.
Anything negative or criminal thing you can think of Scientology is either doing already, or would do in a heartbeat if it suited its purposes. It is the closest thing to pure evil I've ever come in contact with, and I should know since I was involved in it for almost ten years. They do a good job of promoting themselves and hiding the truth.
They've enslaved (and yes I mean that literally) thousands and bankrupted tens of thousands more. They help no one. I only hope I live long enough to see the cult in ruins, the truth about it known to all, and its victims free of its evil.
If you want to learn more check out the following site, it contains everything you ever wanted to know about Scientology that the clams were afraid you'd ask:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/
Lee
Just to clarify: (Score:5, Funny)
They make contact through IQ tests, herding in the gulible and vain, with some plausible junk about increasing IQ and other shit, then it is like a pyramid marketting scheme where you train up and teach others, it only pushes itself into 'religion' because it can seek protection under religious law clauses.
Just treat is as a money leeching pyramid scheme and you can't do to bad. If you meet a hot scientologist chick, shag her, then piss on her and leave her pregnant, and laugh at her occassionally via phone.
If we do that enough times we could stamp it out!
(if you meet a scientologist guy, just ask him about aliens that are stuck to you and how to get rid of them, and then take it seriously and start cutting yourself saying "GET THEM OFF ME OH MY FUCKING HELL AAAAAAAARGH") and see if he uses his supernatural powers to save himself.
Official: Scientology is worse than a piquepaille
Karen Spaink is my hero (Score:5, Informative)
The Church of Scientology (or: CoS; or: Co$, as some of their opponents call it) sells its followers expensive courses which, if students study them carefully, are supposed to set them free ('clear' them). A former Scientology member, Steven Fishman, was brought before court because he committed several crimes in order to get the money to pay for these courses. Scientology urged him to get the money any which way he could. According to Fishman, they also assigned him to kill somebody, and failing that, ordered him to commit suicide.
Thanks Karen.
Scientology has a hate page on Karen (Score:5, Interesting)
Scientology edges the line of lies and libel because they'd really love to have a critic try to fight them in court where they've been quite happy to spend millions to crush single critics. They'd abuse the hell out depositions during discovery (as usual), and then drag the case out for years of expense. If they lost, they could just collapse their sock-puppet, and pop up another one. (This in the 3rd generation of such sites.)
Take a look and think about what kind of cthurch puts up a site like that.
Parent
Get the facts! (Score:4, Funny)
What I want to know is... (Score:4, Interesting)
Scientology's religious cult status is of course merely a ruse to keep their practices from being considered medicine (and regulated as such) and it means their money isn't taxed the same (at all?)
What I want to know is this - who at Scientology is in on the gag? I would imagine the new recruits are true believers as are the people right above them. Are the people at the top, as I would imagine, in on the gag? Surely they're not believers, too. Surely they're aware that the entire thing is a money making sham. And how far down does it go? How many people at the top of Scientology are fully aware of what's really going on? How far down in the organization do you have to go to find people who are brainwashed?
Does anyone remember anon.penet.fi (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.december.com/cmc/mag/1997/sep/helmer
and
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/rnewman/anon/
The CoS destroyed a part of net history.
*grumblecakes*
Re:Decimal Points or Commas? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:news for nerds? nope.. stuff that matters? nope (Score:5, Informative)
To the best of my knowledge, Slashdot has only deleted comments three times. Once at the request of the United States Secret Service (maybe that was kuro5hin, I can't seem to find a reference). Once under legal pressure from Microsoft [slashdot.org]. And once under legal pressure from Scientology [slashdot.org].
Scientology threatened the Wayback Machine [slashdot.org] to the point where its maintainers deleted a bunch of archived content from a site critical of Scientology [xenu.net].
Scientology threatened Google and forced Google to remove listings [slashdot.org] for that same site which is critical of Scientology [xenu.net].
What Scientology's lawyers are up to is certainly news for nerds.
Parent
Re:Copyright (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Copyright (Score:5, Informative)
To be quite fair, it is common practice in Mystery cults to keep the secrets of the higher grades of Initiation from its lower members. In ordinary practice, there is no need to enforce this secrecy as the lower initiates wouldn't understand the material anyway, but sometimes for whatever reason a vow of secrecy is required from the higher Initiates (cf the Freemasons).
So, on the face of it, there is no reason to not respect Scientology's copyrights. There is however a major fly in the ointment: there is a strong suspicion that Scientology is not a legitimate Mystery cult, but in fact a scam operation that aims to extract the maximum amount of money from its members. As such it is possibly a criminal organisation, and publication of evidence pointing in that direction is in the public interest. Jurisprudence in most Western states says that the public interest trumps copyright protection (in fact, this was one of the arguments in this case).
MartParent
Re:Straighten up (Score:4, Informative)
Shouldn't that be: "I have thetans to exorcise"?
For the other readers, parent is referring to CESNUR, a seemingly objective site. Unfortunately, this site is merely the product of one man, Massime Introvigne. And Google shows up some very interesting things about Mr. Introvigne.
For one, he is an IP lawyer. And what is the CoS favourite avenue of attack?
It appears that aforementioned links are, if not straight from the CoS, at least from some of their apologists.
MartParent