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Retailers Press For Unified HD DVD Format
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Thu Jul 28, 2005 03:15 PM
from the what-we-all-want dept.
from the what-we-all-want dept.
datemenatalie writes "While the war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray continues over who will be the direct successor to DVD, the Video Software Dealers Association (VSDA) has issued a strong statement to Hollywood and the consumer electronics industry regarding the looming HD format war. The statement, which supports a single high-definition disc format, also offers advice on dimensions, packaging, features and even how marketing materials should be designed. The statement argues, "two formats, each capable of storing high definition movies on DVD, are planned for release into the market. Retailers uniformly agree that the concurrent distribution of more than one format is likely unsustainable, and that the launch of a single format is preferable to a format war which could confuse the public and lead to reluctance to embrace either format." This comes just weeks after early indications that HD-DVD will only allow playback of full 1080 resolution video signals through HDMI connectors, leaving consumers with older HDTVs (pre-HDMI) out of luck."
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Games: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD Talks End 389 comments
Last minute talks to unify the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats have failed. Matsushita, owner of the Panasonic brand, has stated 'the market will decide the winner.' From the article: "The two sides held talks last year in the hopes of avoiding a prolonged format battle similar to the one between Betamax and VHS videotapes in the 1980s, knowing that it could discourage consumers from shifting to the advanced discs and stifle the industry's growth. But the talks soon fizzled out, with each side reluctant to establish a format based on the other's disc structure. At stake is the $24 billion home video market and a slice of the personal computer market as PCs will be equipped with Blu-ray or HD DVD optical drives."
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Only Marginally Good News (Score:5, Insightful)
Xesdeeni
Re:Only Marginally Good News (Score:2, Insightful)
ROFL!!! (Score:5, Funny)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Oh, brother, I can barely catch my breath. Have you ever wandered through a Best Buy or Circuit City?
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Parent
Re:ROFL!!! (Score:3, Funny)
"Think of how stupid the average consumer is, and realize that half of them are stupider than that!" (apologies to George Carlin.)
Meanwhile, on the technical side, my vote would be for the highest-quality, most forward-looking technology, so it has the largest chance to convert people from DVDs. The current DVD technology is to my mind the video equivalent of CD-quality; in other words, "good enough" for most people. Who cares if it takes a few more cents per disc to manuf
Re:Only Marginally Good News (Score:3, Funny)
That's easy then - just tell everyone that, "If you buy HD-BLU-DVDs then the terrorists have won!"
Re:Only Marginally Good News (Score:3, Insightful)
The question and answer is: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The question and answer is: (Score:3, Insightful)
war: what's it good for? (Score:3, Insightful)
... ya think?
Re:war: what's it good for? (Score:2, Funny)
Imagine the Blu-Ray frying up HD DVD with those blue laser rays
I certainly hope (Score:5, Insightful)
By all rights, Blu-ray *should* be the next-gen standard. It is superior in just about every way. Which, studying history, means that HD-DVD will probably win out in the end
Re:I certainly hope (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:I certainly hope (Score:2)
Mom: Children, your old mother won't be around forever.
Betamax: Oh, shush!
Re:I certainly hope (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:I certainly hope (Score:3, Insightful)
You think BluRay won't? Just because Sony hasn't announced it won't doesn't mean it won't. Sony is notorious for giving the consumer a big "screw you," so I'd expect them to be announcing the same thing in about 3 months (their release schedule is about 6 months behind HDDVD). Hell, Sony is both a hardware and content producer, so they'd really want to lock out the analog hole.
Toshiba locking out older HDTVs and Microsoft saying the next Windows w
HDMI Only? (Score:5, Interesting)
This could be both good and bad for HD-DVD. Film makers will like the HDMI only for the DRM capability. On the other hand, consumers who are not ready to upgrade their TV's will shun away from them. It's going to be a toss up.
Re:HDMI Only? (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't HD-DVD's one big touted advantage supposed to be, and correct me if I'm recalling wrong here, easy backwards compatability?
It is rather self defeating if its backwards compatable in one way but forces hardware upgrades the other way. This will probably play more against the standard than for it.
Parent
As far as I'm aware (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I'm aware, the advantage is and always has been easy backward compatibility for the content industries. From the consumer perspective, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be equally backward compatible with DVD, and both will achieve this backward compatibility in the same way-- by adding a third laser to the two which DVD drives already possess (one laser for CD frequencies, one laser for DVD frequencies, one laser for the "blue" HD disc frequencies).
In fact from the consumer perspective if anything Blu-Ray is more backward compatible than HD-DVD-- because it is possible to manufacture Blu-Ray discs which can be placed in a standard DVD or CD player, and which appear as DVDs to a DVD player and Blu-Rays to a Blu-Ray player. (However, it is unclear if any such Blu-Ray discs will ever be manufactured, and anyway it may not be too late for HD-DVD to adopt this same feature.)
The tauted "backward compatibility" of HD-DVD is, as noted above, from the perspective of a content producer. That is to say, you can manufacture HD-DVDs in the same machines you manufacture DVDs in, with some slight upgrades. If you wish to manufacture Blu-Ray discs, you must buy a new machine. Of course, we are told, if it is cheaper to manufacture HD-DVDs than Blu-Ray discs because you don't have to buy new machines, then the discs will be cheaper for the consumer as well. Hooray for trickle-down economics!
And of course from the perspective of a content producer, forcing your cattle, I mean consumers, to buy new "secure" equipment-- as HD-DVD does and Blu-Ray probably will-- is a big plus.
Parent
Re:HDMI Only? (Score:3, Informative)
No, he means the player. HDMI supports a specific sets of resolutions; standard DVD is one of them.
Currently you can get hdmi-capable DVD players. It passes both audio and video to your hdmi TV. I believe there are even HDMI audio recievers; though I don't know if DVD players have dual HDMI outputs thus that seems kind of silly.
Not all new TV's have HDMI inputs either. Many have DVI which can have an HDMI adaptor applied (if it doesn't ship with the TV).
From my
Someone please explain this to me (Score:3, Informative)
My understanding is that HDCP (the "associated DRM" in HDMI) [wikipedia.org] is not part of HDMI, but rather a separate layer which may be placed on top of either HDMI or DVI.
Am I wrong?
Re:HDMI Only? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure it wouldn't be long until somebody creates a little dongle that will convert HDMI to a S-Video or Component signal and defeats any DRM imposed at the same time.
Re:HDMI Only? (Score:4, Informative)
why lose the quality by downconverting to svideo or component?
This [spatz-tech.de] box will strip the HDCP off an incoming DVI inut and output un-encrypted DVI. you can downconvert that if you want, or keep it as top notch 1080i/720p
dave
Parent
That really hurts HD-DVD (Score:5, Interesting)
But that HDMI fact I did not know about. To me, that really, really hurts HD-DVD as a format. My TV supports HD up to 1080i, but has no HDMI connectors. So the format is entirely useless to me if I want to buy a TV. I just bought a TV.
Blu-Ray already fits more space per disc. I really see little reason at this point to not say "let's just go blu-ray, start retooling machines, and let the price come down." I hate the fact that Sony has its grubby mitts on it, but I'd rather have a format I can actually use without having to buy entirely new hardware. Just a player.
Re:That really hurts HD-DVD (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Retailers are taking a page from Politicians (Score:2, Interesting)
Size (Score:3, Funny)
Dear MPAA, Manufacturers, distributors & pr0nz (Score:5, Funny)
So I urge you, as a consumer, please keep your bit rates low, and consider us warez geezerz.
Otherwise I will just have to draw upon the dark powers of bittorrent, that evil protocol, and distribute gigs of high resolution video to all my l33t friends on the w3b, you know, d4rkh0rz, m@niac, l0tt0rz and b4dger. (their real handles have been changed to protect the innocent)
Kindly,
Tod^H^H^H Paul
[X] Post Anonymously
why not just let them fight it out? (Score:5, Interesting)
Same story, different product (Score:3, Interesting)
hummm (Score:3, Interesting)
HDMI = BAD
however.. for blu-ray.. unless you have a HDCP enabled device on the DVI (-d) cable then your only gonna get 480i.. or perhaps 480p anyway..
SO.. they both suck..
but blu-ray sucks less because atleast component out is still going to be available and you don't have to by an interface box.
The chinese will fix it however.. shhh.. you can already get HDCP disabled devices, just don't let hollyweird know. Leave it to a communist regime to set the capitialist markets straight.
who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)
No, with audio CDs, almost everyone literally can't hear the difference with a higher-quality format. With HDTV, people can easily see the difference between 480 and 1080.
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but your rationalle is certainly wrong.
Re:who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)
HDMI analog converter (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12115 [cdfreaks.com]
Doomed to fail? (Score:5, Insightful)
DVD was successful because in addition to picture and sound quality, the format offered quite a few advantages over the prevailing standard VHS tapes. The new format was more durable (could be played over and over again without degradation), portable (smaller, easier to store), easier to manage (no rewinding, could easily jump to any portion of the film) and provided the viewer with quite a few new valuable features (extra features, commentary, switchable subtitles and foreign languages etc.)
A HD DVD standard only offers the advantage of better picture. I just can't see regular people willing to invest in new equipment and update their video libraries just for that, and in turn I don't see publishers being motivated to offer a large amount of titles in the new standard.
Sure, I'll buy it, but that's because I'm a dork and I like fancy electronic equipment, especially if it shows off the capabilities of my HD TVs. But most people aren't dorks (heck, a lot of people still prefer full screen versions of DVD movies).
Bias inherent to this document? (Score:4, Interesting)
In 1989... (Score:5, Interesting)
The other 6 of those years was, in my personal theory, due to DVD. DVD came out at just the wrong time (from the consumer's perspective). DVD purchasers in the late 90's thought they were getting HDTV. The manufacturers, I believe, let this myth continue and held off on HDTV-DVD so that all the consumers could finish buying all their movies in DVD, before they learned the bad news that they would have to buy them all over again in HDTV-DVD.
The only technology that is more laggard than home entertainment is space exploration.
Well, Blu-Ray is coming anyway. (Score:3, Insightful)
Moreover, Blu-Ray isn't going to hurt the PS3-- since if Blu-Ray movies turn out to never happen, then from a consumer perspective all three video game consoles have the exact same video playback features (they all three play DVDs, though the Revolution requires an adapter and the PS3 has the additional optional bluray ability).
So, what effect does the above have?
Both formats destined to die? (Score:4, Insightful)
1) A new TV @ £1500 Sterling.
2) A new HD-DVD/blueray player @ £?
3) Copies of Films I possibly already have to play on it @ £?
4) An upgrade to my satalite equipment to receive HD content (2 channels atm?) @ £?
5) An upgraded sat subscripition. @ £?
You know...to me (IMO) the above does NOT lead to
6) Profit!!
Why? Because in 5 years time, when all this stuff is priced at a more reasonable level and the quality/quanity of content could justify upgrading...there WILL be a new/better/cheaper format on the horizon (and VERY close to the horizon as well given this tech were talking about now is nearly 2 (lab) years old).
Even worse is MANY consumers (well those of us with better than NTSC) WONT be able to see the real benefits to the upgrade and are NOT going to be replacing that DVD collection; uptake in the mass market is likely to be quite slow.
This is quite probably going to lead to this generation of "technology" being largely shuned in the market place or only occupying a niche in the "videophiles" high end market and eventually going the way of laserdisc!!
So let the release both formats!! It will only quicken the demise for both and HOPEFULLY somewhere in the implosion the draconion copy protection measures will take some of the flak!
Re:Both formats destined to die? (Score:4, Insightful)
I doubt many people are going to go out and buy a new TV so they can watch HighDef Discs. In the US, most everyone is going to end up with a new digital TV over the next few years, with or without HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.
It's most likely that you are going to need to buy a new DVD player to hook-up to your new digital TV, anyhow.
Nonsense. You can play all of your current DVDs on the next gen of DVD players. No re-buying necessary, unless you're die-hard, and WANT to spend money to get copies of your current movies in HD.
The two big sat companies in the US essentially GIVE AWAY their equipment, and I don't see the upgrade to HDTV equipment being any different. They will also be carrying far more HDTV channels, very soon.
This is up in the air. I think it's most likely the satellite and cable companies will charge about the same rates for HD as they do for current television. They are making such huge profits as-is, and they have equal operating costs whether they have 1 subscriber, or 1 billion.
So, to summarize.
1) Everyone will be getting a new HDTV eventually.
2) You'll want a new DVD player, and high-def ones may be nearly as cheap.
3) You don't need to re-buy any movies.
4) Probably Free.
5) Probably the same as current prices.
That's a pretty ridiculous claim to make. We've stuck with the current TV standard for 50+ years now. I can't see anything above HDTV comming along in the next few decades. Since BluRay/HD-DVD have enough room to do full-resolution HDTV, it's very unlikely something else will come along to replace it on HDTVs.
Absolutely ridiculous. No doubt you're talking about PAL, which is just slightly higher res than NTSC... HDTV DOUBLES the vertical resolution, and almost triples the horizontal resolution.
That would be 1.8 times the vertical, and 2.5 times the horizontal, if upgrading from PAL. Plus, you'll get a 20% increase in refresh-rate, which is a huge improvement.
NOBODY NEEDS TO REPLACE THEIR DVD COLLECTION.
Since you've got almost everything else wrong, I can't see any reason to have any faith in your conclusions.
LaserDiscs were huge and cumbersome, and you needed multiple discs for one single movie. The price was also prohibitive. BluRay/HD-DVD are certain not to suffer from the first problem. The second, though, is entirely up to the studios. Whether the HighDef formats live or die depends on the prices of the movies released for them, and the difficulty of circumventing the copy protection to a lesser extent.
Since I don't know how they are going to price the HD movies, I can't say if it will be a success or not, but it's certainly got everything else going for it.
Parent
The fight is over (Score:5, Insightful)
In the same 18 month period that the most optomistic forcasts have 500,000 HD-DVD players sold Sony is projected to sell 15-20 million PS3's - which will include a BD player. Given the forecast price of the PS3 you can bet a large percentage of families are not going to be willing to buy that and a seperate hd-disk player when they get both in the Sony package.
Given that the studios are complete whores and given the substantial decline in DVD sales, they are going to sell BDs for the PS3 no matter how much they prefer HD-DVD - they won't have a choice if they want to keep their phony-baloney jobs.
After two years - an installed base of 20M+ vs. an installed base of 2M+.... It won't even be a contest, and there are no viable theories that contest these well hashed over market projections (with the possible exception of the PS3 never being released.) Even if the X-box takes 50% of the market (Microsofts finest dream, not considered likely) that's still 15M PS3s in the first 18 months.
Oh, and for all the HD-DVD partisans who try to say that Sony will drop BD from the PS3 (other the n the complete absurdity of that contention) Just keep in mind that Sony can count the royalties it gets from every BD sold (and into the future) to subsidize the market price of the PS3 from day one due to the lock it will give it on the next generation format.
Re:Retailers could force the issue! (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't usually reply to my own posts but in this case I think it's warranted. It wouldn't really take a united retail front.
Damn, wish I was smart like you. (Score:3, Insightful)
No guarantees with bendable standards (Score:3, Insightful)
As long as the running battle continues on securing DRM, nothing you buy will be safe from flexible standards; each standard will go through a phase of being new, then being cracked, then being replaced with something else which renders previous versions obsolete and "non-standard".
I'm not really p
Re:Why worry about it (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why worry about it (Score:3, Funny)
Wow, read this part (Score:4, Interesting)
This blacklisting of a single player model is quite powerful and can slow down mass piracy, but on the other hand it can also have some significant drawbacks for legitimate consumers. For instance, you could one day suddenly be unable to watch new movies on your player because it has been revoked after someone has successfully compromised this model. Practical use (as well as explanations to future customers) of this new revocation system will be very interesting to watch.
That absolutely sucks, and I had never heard about it...
Parent
Re:Wow, read this part (Score:3, Insightful)
Manufacturers who refuse to lock down their boxes securely will wind up seeing all th
Re:HD-DVD has a "built in DVD player" (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:What's in a name? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you crazy? Blu-Ray has the catchy name. HD-DVD sounds like a naming convention nightmare. Like something someone from BMW dreamed up working the night shift and running out of other lettered combos to affix "iii"