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Blu-Ray to Include New Copy Protection
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Wed Aug 10, 2005 04:08 PM
from the just-what-we-needed dept.
from the just-what-we-needed dept.
Lord Haha writes "In an announcement (warning: links to a PDF) last night, the Blu-ray Disc Association, led by Sony, representing one of two competing high-definition DVD formats (the other being HD-DVD, led by Toshiba), stated it will simultaneously embrace digital watermarking, programmable cryptography, and a self-destruct code for Blu-ray disc players. Will this be the continuation of the trend into more and more restrictive DRM? Or something that will fade away like Betamax Tapes? Two articles on the topic can be found at Tom's Hardware and PC World."
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Scary. very scary. (Score:5, Interesting)
I take this to say "We concede all control over this device to the **AA."
Am I the only one that finds this disturbing? Isn't this a violation of fair use? Will the public buy a player with BD+ in it?
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:5, Interesting)
This controversial technology would require that disc players maintain permanent connections to content providers via the Internet, making it possible for discs that fail a security check to trigger a notification process, enabling the provider to send the player a sort of "self-destruct code." This code would come in the form of a flash ROM "update" that would actually render the player useless, perhaps unless and until it is taken to a repair shop for reprogramming.
That's stepping a little too far over the bounds of protecting *your* content. If you destroy *my* hardware you have invaded my private space which is unacceptable.
Parent
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:5, Interesting)
This would be distrurbing if it were correct. Over at the AVS Forum [avsforum.com] we have been discussing these formats for some time, and representatives of BOTH sides have specifically stated that no internet connection will ever be needed on a standalone player to play a disc.
There have been a number of questions about the viability of BD+ raised, but the notion that standalone players will require Internet connections has been beaten down so many times it's just not funny anymore.
Now having said that, apparently PC-based players will require periodic key renewal. But even these won't require permanent Internet connections. And this is true for BOTH HD formats, because it is part of the AACS standard.
Parent
I remember this... (Score:5, Informative)
Reminds me of the old Divx players that they tried to foist on us several years back, when DVD players were just starting to become popular. They had to be connected to a phone jack so they could phone home and let their masters know what you were up to. Ok, they didn't self-destruct, but the potential was there. I was elated to see that crappy technology flop. I remember a Circuit City sales guy trying to sell me one. He failed miserably when trying to explain how it was better for me to have discs that would expire and a player that would inform on me.
Parent
Re:I remember this... (Score:5, Insightful)
And just like divx- when they decide the market is going to BluRay2, they just stop validating your disks and they become unplayable. (like divx became unplayable for those who forgot).
Parent
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not true now, but I bet that's how they'll get around it though... Software-like EULAs on hardware. Scary thought, isn't it?
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:4, Interesting)
Ha ha silly you. You don't purchase your own hardware, you rent it from them for an unlimited amount of time.
Parent
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, I see this as a deal breaker feature. Only houses with broadband access can watch the new format? And of that subset, only those willing to let "Big Brother" (I hate using that phrase, but what else is there?) know what you're watching and when? Risking that their player may be deactivated because of some computer glitch?
The only chance they would have is to prevent any competing format from showing up, and I have to ima
No such thing (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No such thing (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, as long as it's cheap.
Re:Scary. very scary. (Score:3, Interesting)
This just sounds like they'd include patches for the firmware of compromised players on Blu-Ray discs themselves. Fair enough for them to do that, I suppose. You find out that the FooCorp BD1000 has a bug that disables DRM if you draw a smiley face on it with a black marker, so the next few Blu-Ray discs contain automatically-applied patches to that player's firmware.
I don't think it'll work, I don't thin
Sounds like mission impossible (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sounds like mission impossible (Score:3, Funny)
So will support for this format.
I don't think so.. (Score:5, Interesting)
The life of hardware manufacturer is tough. You need enough DRM to convince copyright owners to develop/author for your platform yet it's DRM needs to be flawed enough so Joe Six-pack can easily circumvent it.
The former insures there's enough content on your platform to make it an enticing to a consumer. The latter makes your platform doubly as enticing because your customers don't have to spend an insane amount of money getting a large body of content for your platform; they'll just copy it.
The problem is that Sony just can't make the DRM flawed enough to capture public interest because their media division just wont stand for it. So once again, someone else will come along and give the public what they want: media that's easily copied.
Is there precident for this? Absolutely, Why did the Sony Playstation crush the N64? Because you can copy easily for the Playstation. Copying a cartridge is just too much hastle to be worth it. Even better it was trivial to chip a playstation so you could get loads of games for the price of a few CDs.
Rather than learning this lesson they ignored it. Before the IPod, Sony products were the market leaders in portable music. Sony could have got an Ipod like device to market first but the Sony record label were scared so it never happened: Apple did it instead. Far from being a match made in heaven, the symbiosis of Sony media and Sony technology is becoming increasingly schizophrenic and it is punishing them right where it hurts any company: their bottom line.
Simon.
Re:I don't think so.. (Score:5, Informative)
It is sad to see a company like Sony Electronics hobble itself in this manner just to please Sony Studios.
All-in-all, it seems that Mike Fidler (recently Sony exec in charge of Blu-Ray, now CEO of digeo) chose a very opportune moment to abandon ship.
Parent
Re:I don't think so.. (Score:4, Insightful)
What percent of Playstation owners do you think had mod chips? I can't imagine it's significantly greater than zero.
Parent
Re:I don't think so.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:I don't think so.. (Score:3, Insightful)
if what you say was true then Sony pictures would refuse to release anything on DVD because it's too insecure and they would lose money drastically and all that other FUD and lies they trot out to distract you from seeing their gigantic pile of money that is growing out of control.
BluRay has no chance, just like how UMD has zero chance outside of the PSP and sony's SACD is a major failure (oh and that Minidisc thingy of theirs)
The format that is embraced by the China Manufacturers for t
if (HD-DVD == DRM) HD-DVD = DEAD; (Score:3, Insightful)
HD-DVD will be stillborn.
People will take convenience and the facade of ownership over crippled technology any day. Just look at divx (not the Mpeg 4 technology - the rediculous pay for play disks that were stillborn).
True costs of piracy? (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing that always frosts me, is whenever The Industry talks about piracy they always bandy about numbers like (from TFA), three billion dollars per year in lost revenue. I would really love to see their methodology.
It seems to me that, people who are going to pirate content, probably come in three basic groups
Has anyone ever done a study on what percentage of users of pirated content, would have purchased that content, had it not been available outside the legitimate distribution channels?
Has that study been done, and The Industry discovered that it is such a tiny fraction as to make no difference?
Of course, I can see how large-scale commercial piracy really does hurt the distribution system. If a retailer buys three dozen copies of a title for sale as the genuine article, and those three dozen copies SELL as the genuine article at retail price, but were knocked off by a Chinese plant, then that represents a true loss of revenue. What percentage of the discs sold world-wide (I know this is a serious problem in Europe and the Orient) as legitimate are really pirated?
Re:True costs of piracy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:True costs of piracy? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:True costs of piracy? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Industry talks about piracy they always bandy about numbers like (from TFA), three billion dollars per year in lost revenue. I would really love to see their methodology.
==
They probably have a more creative definition of piracy that you and me. I.e. some of the three billion dollars is the loss of you breaking the DMCA and ripping your DVD's to the harddisk instead of buying the same movies on blueray.
Self-Destruct? Not likely (Score:5, Interesting)
Besides, what's to prevent a hacker from filtering out this self-destruct code from the downstream content anyway? I mean, it's not like this internet connection is protected or anything. If the content provider sends a packet to reflash the player, just don't let it get to the player. Have something in between to filter it out.
As usual, there are a bunch of fundamental flaws in DRM that will always keep coming back no matter what the content providers try to do. I see DVD Jon cracking this in a week after it's put out on the streets.
Re:Self-Destruct? Not likely (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd be willing to bet a month's salary that they are going to use public-key cryptography with a bigass key to protect it. RSA2048 will keep anyone from screwing with it. Hard-code the SSL public key, and the only way you're going to launch a man-in-the-middle attack against it is by rewriting the key.
Parent
Re:Self-Destruct? Not likely (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Self-Destruct? Not likely (Score:3, Informative)
Just to answer the question (not to defend the stupidity of DRM systems) they'll encrypt the entire phone-home channel. The players are not going to even spin up the discs unless
Re:Wouldn't be interesting if.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Self-Destruct? Not likely (Score:4, Interesting)
Intel and AMD CPUs shipping this year are going to support easy virtualization. Those hardware companies are pouring money into VM software, and that VM software is free, so anyone and everyone will be able to run VMMs on their stock machines. One way to limit some of the damage of viruses/spyware is to make it a habit to run with multiple VMs. Even grandmothers should do this. (on top of security, VMs have a wide range of other benefits that make them hard to sideline)
On the other hand, DRM is becoming more popular. MS will have its Next-Generation Secure Computing Base that will try to have sections of memory that are very secure and protected. Grandmothers are going to want to play their DVD's inside a VM, and play her secure .WMA files, and...
Multiplayer games are often hacked, and hacks can ruin a multiplayer game. Microsoft's new NGSCB promises to have a secure authenticated path [embeddedstar.com] from the USB hub to the software. Hackers come out with things like fishing bots [stevefishwick.co.uk] that multiplayer game authors would really like to prevent. Normal players would like to play hack-free games, within a VM.
Is there an inevitable train wreck here?
Parent
In other news (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, you knew this was going to happen. The only surprising thing here is the "self-destruct code for Blu-ray disc players". And that isn't so much surprising as sad and hilarious.
I wonder if they'll be implementing the self-destruct code in the PS3. If they do, if you thought the class action lawsuit over the DRE'ing PS2s was bad, wait until the first moment that some kind of vulnerability-- like buffer overflow in Phantasy Star Online for the Gamecube-- is found in an internet-capable PS3 game. Then watch as everyone playing that game gets targeted by a little bit of wormy executable code that triggers the Blu-Ray destruction tripwire and kills the console permanently...
Death of Blue Ray before it even got started (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder if the Self-Destruct Code will be... (Score:5, Funny)
SPOCK: Destruct sequence number two. Code one, one-A, two-B.
SCOTT: Destruct sequence number three. Code one-B, two-B, three.
KIRK: Begin thirty second countdown. Code zero, zero, zero, destruct, zero.
Or perhaps the Futurama version (Score:3, Funny)
(Bender's head explodes instantly.)
Bender: Thanks a lot, Takei! Now everybody knows!
Re:I wonder if the Self-Destruct Code will be... (Score:3, Informative)
KIRK: Sequence one. Code one, one-A.
CHEKOV: Sequence two. Code one, one-A, two-B.
SCOTT: Sequence three. Code one-B, two-B, three.
KIRK: Code zero, zero, zero, destruct zero.
You would think that between the two times they would have changed the password.
HD-DVD is dead. (Score:5, Interesting)
Having this new copy protection stuff should just seal the deal (great for studios, terrible for consumers). The fact that only one manufacturer is expected to ship a HD-DVD player this year (and for $1000) doesn't bode well. Early next year Sony will be shipping the PS3 which will not only play the blueray discs, but will also play PS1/2/3 games and DVDs. All for $500 (my guess at their "high price", but even at $700 it would be a bargain compared to $1000). There will be so many PS3 sales, it would be hard to beat that installed base even if HD-DVD was in the initial X-Box 360s (now we don't even know if that will happen).
The war is over. The only people who don't know it are the HD-DVD group.
Not buyin' it (Score:5, Insightful)
That's waaaay over the line.
Not gonna buy it.
You think I'd let a mistake by some techie or program destroy a few hundred bucks of my hard-earned money?
I'm tired of people treating me like a thief, when I never pirate ANYTHING!
I've got lots of CDs and DVDs I already bought in the 80s and 90s, and I can always just walk along the street and whistle (or daydream).
Follow the Porn (Score:5, Insightful)
Porn producers are very realistic, and very saavy. Do you think people are going to buy "Buttbandits 23" if they know that every time they queue it up, some manufacturer is getting a record of it?? Even those without tinfoil hats know this is a bad idea...
My prediction is that the pornographers will use a version of the high-def discs WITHOUT the phone-home feature, or will stick to DVDs.
Pornography: Saving Western Civilization since 1826.
Re:Follow the Porn (Score:3, Funny)
Ron Jeremy in high defintion on a 90 inch TV would cause nightmares.
Piracy fuels hardware sales... (Score:5, Interesting)
Beta tapes and VHS recorders --"You mean I can go to the store, set one deck to playback on channel 3 and set the other to record channel 3, and I have a copy? Schmeet!"
Audio cassettes -- Same deal.
CD Burners -- Again, essentially the same deal.
Playstations -- I can play imported games and as a side benefit, play "backup" games? Where do I get one of these mod-chips? See: CD-Burner sales.
Dreamcast -- Homebrew games and backups? All I have to do is use a special boot-cd? I think I'll pick one up since they're so cheap. See: CD-Burner sales.
DVD Burners -- I can backup my important data plus burn movies and games? I want one!
XBOX -- Relatively shitty sales compared to the gold-standard Playstation2 'til the modders started to have fun with the internal hard drive. Drop some NES/SNES/Genesis emulators on there...
Sony PSP --Aside from the weak (IMHO) "I have one before you!" factor... probably the only thing driving sales... the ability to make it do things it didn't do out-of-the-box.
Anyone denying that the sale of almost every new format's success was riding on the possibly of pirating is damn near delusional. Maybe it isn't the deciding factor for every single person buying the widget, but it's definitely a sizable minority... if not majority.
Frankly, this time around, we're really faced with a stalemate between Hollywood and consumers. Sure, early adopters will buy whatever hits the market... but not in droves.
This time around, if the hardware makers don't follow the wishes of Hollywood, prices probably won't decline, volumes will remain flat, and Toshiba and Sony both will be faced with a format that's dead right out of the gates.
However, without laying the DRM on thick, Hollywood won't play ball with the next generation of video players. Catch-22.
It's silly not to attribute a sizable portion of the success of DVD to the cracking of CSS -- like it nor not.
Of course, you can always buy from China (Score:3, Insightful)
Point-Counterpoint: I say let 'em crash (Score:3, Interesting)
That will give the rest of the entertainment community the chance to create smaller, niche forms of entertainment, while hollywood continues its downward spiral of making worse mass appeal crap. Same for music, TV, etc.
Re:Point-Counterpoint: I say let 'em crash (Score:5, Insightful)
It'll be worse, the retailers will get in on it. They'll be getting all sorts of returns from people who don't have an Internet connection. Parents whose player doesn't work after little Johnny unbeknownst to them tried to play a disc his friend at school gave him. People whose player got "self-destructed" because somebody at a content provider mis-keyed a serial number. And people won't be happy about having to pay restocking or repair fees when they didn't do anything to break the player. A few consumer complaints later, Blu-Ray players will be anathema to retailers who can't afford to eat the cost of all those returns.
Parent
Wow, phone home! (Score:3, Interesting)
- Users who don't have phone lines or Internet connections? (Yes, there are lots of them.)
- My Internet connection is down... Well, I can't surf the web, so I think I'll pop in a DVD, instead. ERROR - UNAUTHORIZED!
- Invasion of privacy - Please wait while your DVD player connects to Sony Headquarters to inform them that you're watching an illegal copy of Horse Humpers Volume 7.
- Warning stickers? WARNING: This device will stop working if an invalid disk is loaded. Yeah, that's good for sales.
- Headaches for retailers (dealing with returns/repairs of "self destructed" uints).
Not to mention that people just won't like the idea. And it's untrue to say that it won't matter, because the general public won't know the difference, because the first people who are going to buy next-generation DVD players are the tech-savvy crowd. And they won't buy this garbage. It sounds to me like the battle is over... They've showed their hand, and they've got nothing.Beta (Score:3, Informative)
Betamax [wikipedia.org] may have been a failure, but Betacam SP [wikipedia.org] was a big hit and is a defacto standard for professionals.
Re:self-destruct code (Score:3, Insightful)
Assumedly the means to destroy content is in case they think it was copied illegally. If that's the case, in reality, it'll most often destroy the discs of those doing nothing wrong. No matter how they try, they can't keep people from the raw data; it's essentially impossible. If it comes down to it, even if the video signal ends up analog straight out of the decryption
HD-DVD has already *GONE* down that road (Score:5, Informative)
Meanwhile to counterpart Blu-Ray's "interesting" copy control features, at least as the standard stands, HD-DVD discs MUST CONTAIN DRM in order to be played in an HD-DVD player AT ALL. [cdfreaks.com] This is not like DVD, where CSS was an option which disc creators could choose to follow or not follow and you could just freely stick into a DVD player a DVD-R you burned. An HD-DVD drive is not allowed, by the current compliance rules, to play ANY HD-DVD disc which doesn't have a digital watermark granted directly by the central HD-DVD authority. Interestingly these watermarks include a "banned" list-- HD-DVDs keep an internal list of watermarks that have been "revoked", and every new HD-DVD printed will contain an up-to-date copy of that "revoked" list which the HD-DVD player must update every time you put in an HD-DVD. If the HD-DVD player sees a disc whose watermark has been placed on the "banned" list, it refuses to play it.
Parent
Re:Blu-Ray? no thanks! (Score:3, Interesting)