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Little Red Book Draws Government Attention
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Dec 17, 2005 04:44 PM
from the they-have-nothing-better-to-do? dept.
from the they-have-nothing-better-to-do? dept.
narcolepticjim writes "An unnamed Dartmouth student was visited by Homeland Security for requesting a copy of Mao Zedong's Little Red Book for a class project." From the article: "The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said."
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And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/083 512388X/ref=dp_olp_2//102-9865629-6948961?conditio n=all [amazon.com]
Re:And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Funny)
That's what all you bastards get for putting me on your "naughty" list!
Parent
Re:And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:And if you are lonely this holiday season... (Score:5, Interesting)
Even though it was voted against, Bush has stated that he will continue to authorize illegal phone taps and other forms of spycraft on US citizins. NYTimes article here [nytimes.com] He was, in fact, filled with rage at the tresonous liberal media who dared to leak the fact that he is authorizing such illegal activities in the first place, and that they may well have murdered innocent people through their deplorable actions. :)
This comes right on the heels of the use of torture being approved by the Bush-McCain agreement. Although on its surface it appears to ban the use of torture by US personnel, it in fact grants them 100% immunity from any problems that may arise from the use of torture, under the constraint that they must have reason to believe that such torture is an order. Standing orders are any and all means are authorised, therefore, this law grants immunity from prosecution or court martial to any US troops or CIA agents who with to torture or execute to gain information. Finally, the house and senate have both backed a measure that will make evidence gained through torture admisable in court, as well as holding people, both citizins and not, indefinatly without trial, and without access to a lawyer.
So there you have it. Bush is overriding the Judicial branch and issuing warrants himself, torture is legal, and evidence tortured out of a suspect is admissible in court, you have no right to a speedy trial, nor to confront witnesses. What a week! Ammendments lost this week: I, IV, V, VI, VIII.
Parent
Well, hey... (Score:5, Funny)
Thanks, I'll be here all day.
Re:Well, hey... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't be so sure of that.
Yours,
The NSA
Parent
Re:Well, hey... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Remember Kids... (Score:5, Insightful)
Freedom Is Slavery
Ignorance Is Strength
(http://www.studentsfororwell.org/ [studentsfororwell.org])
Parent
US college students starting peasant revolutions (Score:5, Interesting)
There's definitely a major major threat that college students reading Mao's Red Book are going to go out and start peasant revolutions - here in the US they'd need to learn to sing country music first, and then they'd find that most of the farms have been taken over by large agribusinesses like Tyson Chicken and Archer-Daniels-Midland, who've got other ways to be connected to power. I mean, sure, the Little Red Book was popular reading back in the 1960s, since the US hadn't had a Cultural Revolution and reading was still legal, but the Feds are starting to catch up with Mao.
At least they don't have to worry about anybody reading "Das Kapital" and believing Marxist economics - it's a really dull read and the economics are transparently bogus, unlike the Communist Manifesto which is at least short and enthusiastic.
Parent
This is unfortunately predictable (Score:5, Insightful)
government is given power, it is human nature to abuse it. What I
don't understand is why people fall hook, line, and sinker, for the
same techniques throughout history over and over again.
1) Instill fear in the population somehow, by either orchestating or latching on to
a catastrophic event,
2) Tell the population that you will take care of it, blame enemies of the state,
3) Go to war, claim critics of the war are unpatriotic, out of touch, part of an "elite".
This is all classic power grab politics, and yet it happens again and again in
history.
Why do people not learn from history? It is clear that those in power have a
vested interest in having a sheeple populace. A critical thinking, well informed
electorate, is the biggest enemy to would be dictators in a democratic society.
Start with the children. I guess fear really is the mind killer. And, at the risk of
pulling a Godwin, two quotes from Hermann Goering, leader of Hitler's Luttewaffe.
"Education is dangerous - Every educated person is a future enemy"
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
Finally, just a minor nit. The submitter claims the student was a "Dartmouth" student, whereas the article states that the student was from "U Mass-Dartmouth".
Re:This is unfortunately predictable (Score:5, Insightful)
Human nature wants someone to protect us, we want to believe the world is a happy place and all will be well. Because if we look in the mirror we see someone we don't like and a world we can't stand.
It works the same way religion does. If you look at something else, you don't have to see the real world. It's the same reason so many body builders work so hard to get great bodies. They often hate the person inside so much they want to change it.
People believe what they are told.. because if they don't, they end up broken..
Parent
Re:This is unfortunately predictable (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they think of themselves as the "good guys", and the history they are taught (by school, Hollywood, the media, etc) portrays bad things being done by "bad guys". In reality, there is no good and bad, just a mixture of greys.
How often is it that a movie about Nazi Germany includes the democracy that Germany had beforehand? How often do you hear about how Osama bin Laden called for jihad against Iraq for invading Kuwait? How often do you hear about how Saddam Hussein reformed Iraq into a secular state instead of a theocracy, or how he increased equality and women's rights?
As long as people are taught that some countries are good and some countries are evil, so long as their enemies are demonised, the majority of people will continue to think of themselves as the "good guys", and therefore immune to committing atrocities and war crimes.
Parent
This could never happen in America (Score:5, Funny)
Where at least I know I free...
Re:This could never happen in America (Score:5, Funny)
Where at least I'm told I'm free.
I won't forget the third-grade class
that ingrained it into me,
and I'll proudly stand up,
next to you, though I don't know what it means.
Oh, there ain't no doubt who runs this land.
God Bless the bourgeois.
I wrote that in my head when I had to work at K-Mart the day after the 9/11 attack, telling people constantly that we were out of flags (what, you didn't care about them a week ago?), and hearing patriotic music blaring on the radio.
Parent
hand me that handbasket, please... (Score:5, Funny)
Memorize this phrase... (Score:5, Insightful)
-jcr
Re:Memorize this phrase... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Memorize this phrase... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should they bother? It's so much easier to simply disappear you.
Parent
down load it here (Score:5, Informative)
Time for some critical thinking here (Score:5, Interesting)
Nevertheless, I find the details fishy:
- Why would a student have to write down a SSN for a book loan, but not have to write down the class for which he is requesting the book?
- If he *did* have to write down his class, then why would the NSA waste resources on this case?
- Why would a book by Mao be on a watch list? Surely the NSA isn't having flashbacks to the 1950's!
- Why does it seem just a little too convenient that this unnamed student is being investigated by the NSA while doing research for a class on "fascism and totalitarianism"?
- Why are none of Robert PontBriand's classes [umassd.edu] (the professor in question, according to TFA) listed as "fascism and totalitarianism"?
No doubt there are good answers to these questionsFrom a UMass alum... (Score:5, Informative)
The UMass system when I was there asked for your SSID/student ID and the various other pieces of information, but not what class you were doing it for (you could include it as optional information). The reason is that they really don't care if you're reading it for a class, multiple related classes or for your own personal improvement.
2. If he *did* have to write down his class, then why would the [DoHS] waste resources on this case?
See 1
3. Why would a book by Mao be on a watch list?
The article mentioned that the student had been abroad for a significant amount of time; it was probably a totality of the evidence. (Note: not justifying the situation, just saying how it probably came about)
4. Why does it seem just a little too convenient that this unnamed student is being investigated by the NSA while doing research for a class on "fascism and totalitarianism"?
The course is Ideologies of Power, as has been pointed out. Fascism and totaliarianism might be part of the course or an Honors' Colloquium, which typically takes part of the course and creates a focused presentation, research paper or discussion group for an extra credit plus honors credit in the area of the course. This would also explain why a course text was not available in the UMass Library system.
5. Why are none of Robert PontBriand's classes (the professor in question, according to TFA) listed as "fascism and totalitarianism"?
See 4
Parent
Mao? That's nothing... (Score:5, Informative)
Why in the hell are we paying (taxes) for ... (Score:5, Insightful)
<sarcasm>I'm so comforted that a noticable portion of my paycheck gets usurped for such important security concerns.</sarcasm>
If you are a taxpaying U.S. citizen, I advise you to see how your contributions to the government are apportioned and spent [natprior.org].
Feh! (Score:5, Interesting)
Within minutes, I was hassled by a very hot and loud bitch cop (120 dB of pure bitchery and 120 pounds of hot chick). Within minutes I was surrounded by 6 cops and transit security.
During the ensuing shouting match, none was ever able to say what illegal act I had committed. I eventually gave my (cellphone) number to the bitch ;)
6 months later, a "national security division" cop of the RCMP [rcmp.gc.ca] calls me on the cellphone and wants to talk to me.
- This is a cellphone.
- Oh. Sorry. Well, call me at 555-555-5555.
Not being stupid, I make sure I don't call him from $ORKPLACE. They're the police, so they surely can find my home number in the phone directory, no? And if they check google with my name, they can find I'm a transit buff, no?
Well, I guess not. And if they are doing "national security" investigations, 6 months later is pretty fast, I guess...
Looks like he found what he was looking for... (Score:5, Insightful)
What better way to learn about fascism and totalitarianism than to live under 'em, eh?
Yes, I'm feeling sardonic today.
Not to spoil the paranoia... (Score:5, Informative)
Not that this excuses the utterly retarded HomeSec nonsense, of course.
Parent
SSNs as College Student ID Numbers (Score:5, Informative)
There are way too many US colleges that routinely violate the privacy of their students and expose them to identity theft by using their Social Security Number as a student ID number, because it's ostensibly unique and they sometimes also need it if the student's an employee or has a government loan. Fortunately neither school I attended did that, but it's extremely common. Similarly, many US states use the SSN as a driver's license number, and all of them collect the SSN in keep it in their databases. And many medical insurance companies use SSNs as a customer ID number (HIPAA's changing that a bit, but Medicare's still based on SSNs so they usually need it anyway.) And too many companies use SSNs as an employee ID. It's appalling, but get used to it.
Parent
Re:SSNs as College Student ID Numbers (Score:5, Interesting)
In Canada the equivalent of the SSN is the SIN (Social Insurance Number). In any case a few years ago it became law that you cannot be refused a service because you refuse to give out your SIN. The exception to this is that it has a valid use (Pretty well the only valid uses are ones that deal directly with taxation, for example you must give it to your employer so they can report income tax stuff correctly).
That being said companies can ask you for your SIN but you are not obligated to give it to them. For me that meant waiting 3 weeks longer for a credit card, but at least VISA doesn't have my SIN
The main reason why I am so paranoid about my SIN is I actually had mine stolen a while back. A company I used to work for outsourced their pension stuff. About a year ago the place got broken into and computers containing my SIN along with 30000 or so other people got stolen. The process of making sure that no one can apply for credit in my name is something I do not want to repeat.
Parent
Re:Wait, WTF??!?!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Wait, WTF??!?!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
The governments are paranoid of anything with knowledge, scared they'll lose their grip around the publics neck. A book or a bomb.. in the right hands a single word can change the world..
Parent
Re:Wait, WTF??!?!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Wait, WTF??!?!?!? (Score:5, Funny)
MacGyver. Season 4, episode 3.
Parent
Re:Wait, WTF??!?!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
To the Powers that Be, a single book is far more dangerous than any weapon of mass destruction, real or imagined. As was once said (Henry Peter Brougham),
Let the people start to read, to educate themselves, and how the hell are you going to rule them?
Parent
Re:Wait, WTF??!?!?!? (Score:5, Funny)
I missed the part where requesting a copy of Karma Sutra triggers a visit from Kenneth Star
Parent
Re:quick (Score:5, Funny)
Not yet, but if your plan works the DHS will get increased funding for more agents to investigate the "epidemic of thinking".
Parent
Re:not a free county (Score:5, Funny)
I think you have a few bits loose :-)
Parent
Re:Now you know (Score:5, Insightful)
To quote Will Rogers, "Be happy you don't get all the government you're paying for."
Parent
Re:Mixed feelings (Score:5, Insightful)
But a *book*? And what's more, a book that contains nothing but *quotations*? It's not even the anarchist's cookbook or something - just a collection of quotes. Sure, it was Mao who wrote it, but seriously - this is no more justified than McCarthyism was. You could just as well advocate paying someone a visit for trying to obtain a copy of, say, de bello gallico (Julius Caesar was a dictator, too, and not exactly squeamish when dealing with his enemies).
Parent
Re:Mixed feelings (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
You're full of shit, sorry (Score:5, Interesting)
First, what "pro-terrorist cranks" do universities "enjoy hiring"? Even Al-Arian in Florida, who is hardly in any way representative of the kinds of professors hired at most universities in the US, was acquitted of any wrongdoing. But he lost his job as a result of the controversy, and you can bet that professors likely to cause such controversy are going to be passed up by most hiring committees.
More importantly, however, can you please tell us what "dots" can possibly be "connected" to terrorism based on a professor checking out a book of quotations from a library? You make a big deal out of the fact that this guy wanted the right version of this book - as if a concern for accuracy makes one a terrorist suspect. This is ludicrous. I have no problem with the Feds monitoring purchases of large quantities of dangerous chemicals, but books? Full of quotations? By dead Chinese dictators? Come on.
As a professor who writes and teaches about war and terrorism (among other things), I often find myself checking out and buying books about terrorism, al Qaeda, and other things far more "threatening" than Mao's red book (not to mention visiting websites, etc.) My research interests have caught the attention of the feds before [slashdot.org], but never from just checking out a book from the library. The idea that certain books are flagged simply for ideological content is a sign of significant problems in terms of academic freedom and freedom of thought generally.
The fact that a forty-year old book of vague quotations about "people's war" that is also the second most popular book in the world [wikipedia.org] (second only to the Bible) is on that list just shows how surreal and absurd this war on terrorism has become.
Parent
Re:Mixed feelings (Score:5, Insightful)
What if their duty is to make a list of all the {Jews | Japanese-Americans | Communists | Bourgeois Capitalists | Anarchists | Muslims | Armenians | crypto-Christians | Quakers | students reading Mao} on your block?
Will you answer "Jawohl, mein Polizei, Herr Kohn in apartment 103 is one?"
It really amazes me that so many "good Christians" believe in always helping the cops. I mean, their Christ was executed, according to the law of the times, after being seized by the cops for being a troublemaking radical. You'd think they might remember that.
Sometimes, the only decent thing to do is to not help the cops.
Ihre Papiere, bitte!
Parent
Re:A little skepticism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of enforcing constitutionally protected freedom of speech, its better for you to choose what people can read. Your constitution doesnt really matter.
yup, there's no chance that anyone could possibly read the book and not come away a devout communist. Yup, no one has ever read the writings of such figures purely to try and figure out how they think, with the understanding that it will lack a true representation of what happened to the people.
If you choose this repression, then you are simply walking down the same path that Mao himself followed.
Parent
Re:A little skepticism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your repression is the act of trying to substitute another book in the place of what a FREE person CHOSE to read.
He was not looking for a historical perspective, he wanted to read the actual propaganda for himself.
But yes, you are right books are not harmless, they are bad bad dangerous things because they make you think. I'll see you at sunday's book burning.
Parent
Re:A little skepticism? (Score:5, Informative)
Unless you're living in a void and not critically evaluating what you read, Mao's little red IS harmless.
Mao certainly caused a lot of deaths, but contrary to leaders like Stalin, Mao was more a flawed leader that screwed up badly than someone whose core ideology involved mass murder, and if you read the little red book you will see that reflected in a lot of what he is saying.
Most people reading it will find themselves agreeing with a lot of it, either because it is vague enough so as to be more or less apolitical, or because it plain makes sense. Most of those same people will probably never like Mao, nor will they they ever become apologists for what he did. Even the Chinese Communist Party readily admits that Mao had many flaws and that many of his policies should never have been carried out because they were disasterous and caused vast numbers of deaths that could have been avoided with better leadership.
But you will also likely find that many of the things in Maos little red book are things you can agree with exactly because it contains admonishions of how to act that the Chinese Communist Party really ought to be learning from.
A few examples (NOTE: There are certainly far more controversial quotes too - particularly regarding the Leninist concept of democratic centralism - I'm not trying to whitewash Mao, just to show a side most peopke don't know - for the other side, read the book):
"A proper measure of democracy should be put into effect in the army, chiefly by abolishing the feudal practice of bullying and beating and by having officers and men share weal and woe.".
And: " With regard to economic democracy, the representatives elected by the soldiers must be ensured the right to assist (but not to bypass) the company leadership in managing the company's supplies and mess."
And: "We must not be complacent over any success. We should check our complacency and constantly criticize our shortcomings, just as we should wash our faces or sweep the floor every day to remove the dirt and keep them clean."
And: "We should be modest and prudent, guard against arrogance and rashness, and serve the Chinese people heart and soul. . . ."
And: " Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected -- that is what being responsible to the people means."
The biggest "danger" the little red book constitutes is that it might make some readers see the difference between communist ideology and what has been practiced in the name of communism in totalitarian states - the greatest bulwark against support for communist ideas today is that most people still think of countries like China, North Korea or the old Soviet Union as representative of communist ideology, rather than as dictatures that flagrantly abuse it's symbolism and phrases. How many people today consider the Inquisition representative of Christian ideas (I don't, and I'm an atheist), or for that matter consider Hitlers support for the church as proof churches are evil?
However, the Chinese Communist Party is really the organisation that should worry most about people actually reading and understanding Mao and realising just exactly how far from the goals of the Chinese revolution they have moved.
They better hope the Chinese people don't start taking to heart quotes like the ones above, or the following one, and start expecting for them to be followed:
" Every comrade must be brought to understand that the supreme test of the words and deeds of a Communist is whether they conform with the highest interests and enjoy the support of the overwhelming majority of the people."
If you'd like to see for yourself what it actually says, all of Mao's little red book is available online [morningsun.org]
Parent
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
But that's the american way
But that's just inside your borders. It's far worse if you include the atrocities your country commits outside your borders, pretending that you don't need to uphold your own values when its not US soil, and not US people, as if they are any less human than you.
Parent
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
-- Leon Poliakov, Harvest of Hate, quoted in Kornberg, "Kristallnacht and the Politics of Anti-semitism Nazi Germany"
-- Albert Fuchs, My Experiences From November 9th to 16th, 1938 [concordia.ca] (Written on November 19, 1938 on the way from Strasbourg to Paris)
Now I'm not saying the situation in contemporary America is anywhere as bad as the situation in Nazi Germany. What I am trying to point out is that beliefs like yours, that, it "can't be that bad", have consistently been disproven.
Will things become as bad here as they got in Nazi Germany? Like you, I doubt it. But it can happen here. Just ask any Japanese American who sat out WWII in an American internment camp. Hell, ask any black person over age 40 who grew up in the American South, or anyone caught up in the anti-Communist hysteria of the 1950s.
Was Soviet Communism a real threat in the 1950s? Definitely, just as terrorism is a real threat now. But just as in the 1950s, it's also an excuse for government excess and the curtailment of personal liberties in the name of "security".
You can't belive governemtn agents are tracking people who check out books? This has all happened before, rght here in America.
Parent
Not so scary (Score:5, Informative)
It's called an "Army Field Manual"
They've got How-To's on everything from training insurgents, fighting a counterinsurgency battle, improvised explosives/munitions/booby traps/guns/silencers/, code breaking, psychological ops, interrogation... the list just keeps going. And that doesn't include Marine field manuals.
The U.S. Army has put into print enough information that terrorists don't need any other sources. And when I say "For Dummies" I really mean it, those field manuals are written for the lowest common denominator.
Parent