Helping Other Big Brothers Go High Tech

Dino writes "BusinessWeek has an interesting article about the export of high-tech equipment to China's security forces, and the dilemma that it creates. On the one hand, there is the desire to increase exports to a country with which there is a trade imbalance. On the other hand, we face a situation in which the technology can be used to track dissidents and unauthorized religions. Restrictions have been enacted since the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre to prevent exports intended to the Chinese security forces. However, the restrictions have been applied narrowly, and effectively prevent only low-tech exports such as handcuffs, helmets, fingerprint powder, and tear gas, while DB software, two-way radios, DNA analysis gear, and video probes, are allowed."

THEY NEED THAT DNA ANALYSIS EQUIPMENT

[CmdrTaco (troll) (578383)]

They need to make sure blood on the bullet matches up so they don't bill the wrong family.

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[markana (152984)]

I though it was so they could match the transplant patients to the correct pris^h^h^h^h donor....

For what those people are payng, they want the best match possible.

Very Interesting Rewording

[by Anonymous Coward]

The actual headline in Business Week's article in the linked article is "Helping Big Brother Go High Tech ", yet the slashdot headline is slyly reworded to "Helping Other Big Brothers Go High Tech".

I wonder this was just an innocent mistake or if the submitter intentionally reworded this to imply there are other big brothers we are helping. If so, let's see the evidence, otherwise this slight modification of text comes out of the pages of Animal Farm.

Hmm..

Re:Very Interesting Rewording

[ajenteks (943860)]

Maybe the implication is that America itself is a big brother? The wire-tapping crap alone that's been going on lately sure makes it seem like that could be the case.

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[DrXym (126579)]

Maybe the implication is that America itself is a big brother?

But instead of Emmanuel Goldstein you have Osama Bin Laden. Now stand for your two minutes of hate.

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[kalidasa (577403)]

Unless your name is Khomeni, he was probably a former ally of yours, too.

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[Guuge (719028)]

For what it's worth, I think it's quite obvious that the change is supposed to clarify that the "Big Brother" we're talking about is not our "Big Brother" but another "Big Brother".

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[Ruff_ilb (769396)]

This is /.

The hats are welded to our skulls with a lead-based agent.

Perception & reality

[EmbeddedJanitor (597831)]

There is little evidence of companies caring much in the past (IBM & Nazis etc), and I doubt they will care in the future either. Very few will put ethics before a sale.

However, they do care about how they are are perceived to be acting because negative press can get in the way of other sales, so they might not sell to Chine etc if they think that might hurt selling to a more lucrative market. Don't for a minute confuse that with genuine ethical feelings though.

Re:Perception & reality

[vancondo (986849)]

However, they do care about how they are are perceived to be acting because negative press can get in the way of other sales, so they might not sell to Chine etc if they think that might hurt selling to a more lucrative market.

Yes, but even then they only care after there is an uproar about what they are selling and to whom. They don't seem so keen on detecting where they will get negative press, or else it's worth the risk hoping that no one will notice.

--
you give me beer, i give you condo. [vancouvercondo.info]

Re:Perception & reality

[smilindog2000 (907665)]

Worrying about exporting this stuff to China is dumb. We already export:

- Cash. We invest more in China than the rest of the world combined.
- Jobs. Our loss is their gain.
- Internet filtering, courtesy Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft.
- Chip manufacturing technology (indirectly through Taiwan)

SMIC, China's largest semiconductor manufacturer (built on US technology) is listed on the Nasdaq. For some stupid reason, politicians in Washington don't think the Chinese are capable of building advanced computers, r

Re:Perception & reality

[megaditto (982598)]

What the Communist China lacks is creativity. I am not talking about the Chinese people here, I am talking about the dictatorship supressing Free Though.

Hence Chinese grad students and scientists working abroad achieve wonders of creativity and invention, while those inside China, not so much...

Consumers? Hello?

[NineNine (235196)]

Oh please. You can talk about companies all day, but all of the corporations in the world don't begin to measure up to what consumer whores regular citizens are. You know those hundreds of millions of people shopping at Wal-Mart? You think any of them know or care where their money is going. I'd wager on "no". Hell, Wal-Mart didn't have even a bump in their upward trajectory when they quietly dropped their "Made in the USA" schtick. People just keep buying, and buying, and buying...

And I'm not talking about Wal-Mart, I'm talking about every little thing that regular people buy every day. Hell, I've seen people beat the shit out of each other like animals so that they could save $100 on a laptop computer.

Remember, the only reason these companies are here is because people keep buying stuff from them.

Re:

[Yvanhoe (564877)]

Buy chinese goods, sell goods to chinese, make both economies interdependant. Make wealthy people in China, make the middle class grow. Leaving them poor and uneducated is surely not the way out of the dictatorship.

I don't see a problem

[Colin Smith (2679)]

Increased trade with China is a good thing for China, the chinese and the rest of the world. It creates a wealthy middle class who are no longer reliant on the government and who will want more political influence on how they are governed. This will have a far larger impact on the political reform than isolationism, which simply cements dictatorships in place.

 

Re-evaluate. Pretty please.

[TalkingWire (1002401)]

Another carrot proffered naively by the US in hopes that China will "come around" and re-evaluate its currency?

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[thegnu (557446)]

Another carrot proffered naively by the US in hopes that China will "come around" and re-evaluate its currency?

I think the US Government has been fostering this conception we have that they're stupid so we don't see blatant attempts to aid and abet their Big Bretheren as such, but as vast miscalculations. All Donald Rumsfeld will need to do in the future to dispel any thoughts that there may have been malice aforethought will be to spit out some more confusing nonsensical tirade about hot air balloons and

Doubt it

[Moraelin (679338)]

I don't think it's as much offering China any carrots, as just bending over backwards to please the local big corporations. Wouldn't want to let ethical considerations get in the way of big campaign contributions, now would we? The US policy and politics of the new millenium have dropped any coherent planning or pretense of pursuing the interest of the country as a whole, and just focused on giving corporations anything they wish, even if it means shafting society as a whole to do that.

Free market

[gethoht (757871)]

The free market attitude is what dominates us policy(except for huge subsidies to oil companies, tax breaks to mega corps, etc...)

Profit will always trump most other ideals in business today.

Video Probe?!

[lawpoop (604919)]

I hope I'm not randomly selected at the airport to be searched with a video probe!

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[creimer (824291)]

I heard that segment of the Chinese porn market is rather hot.

If you think about it . . .

[DrMrLordX (559371)]

. . . nearly anything could potentially be used in the repression of free thought and free religion in China. Dealing with the Chinese at all, under any circumstance, could easily be construed as indirect support for China's totalitarian political infrastructure. Why split hairs over database software and DNA testing equipment? If you're going to be dealing with them at all, you've got to accept the risk that something you sold them might eventually be used to track down, restrain, or even torture a political dissident or practitioner of unsanctioned religion. It's China, what do you expect?

Besides, if American firms don't sell them what they want, they'll either buy it elsewhere or rip off a foreign design and make it themselves.

US Big Brother

[mulhollandj (807571)]

It is interesting how much we blast China for not giving freedoms to its citizens. Do not US citizens realize the same thing is happening to them?

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[Xyrus (755017)]

Some do, most don't.

Keep the majority thinking that they're happy, and you could slaughter innocent civilians and get away with.

For reference, see Iraq War 2.

~X~

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[professionalfurryele (877225)]

The beauty of Western Democracy is that finally power brokers have a means to take rights from the masses, they simply ask for their consent. After all, democracy is the most important right, right? Oh no wait, democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself. But in the West we have forgotten that. It is better to have your privacy protected, to be able to enjoy your cultural heritage, to feel safe at home, to be able to defend yourself, and to have the power to determine your own future in a benevolen

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[dbIII (701233)]

Also China is nice to it's citizens in comparison to countries where they may on-sell this technology to like North Korea. Once you let the "top secret" tech out to the unscrupulous it ends up wherever it will end up - who would have thought that classified technology given to Israel would be put in tanks sold to China and then sold again to Iran within a couple of years of it's development?

I'm curious as to why people think this thing is worse than arms sales - selling mustard gas to Iraq in 1990 and anth

As it is written...

[MikeRT (947531)]

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and in the end lose his very soul?

If you need an argument against secularization of the culture (as opposed to the government), then look no further than capitalism completely unrestrained by any influence from the Protestant Christian tradition that gave birth to it.

Or, as the Communists used to say, "the Capitalists will sell us the rope we will use to hang them."

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[hitchhacker (122525)]

look no further than capitalism completely unrestrained by any influence from the Protestant Christian tradition that gave birth to it.

This is a ridiculous statement. Capitalism isn't something created by government or religion, it is the absence of both. It has been around way before Protestant Christian "tradition"... any civilization that relied on bartering... there's your capitalism.

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[istartedi (132515)]

Communists? In China? Where?

Fascists, on the other hand...

Who is Scarier?

[Skewray (896393)]

Really, is high tech scarier in the hands of China's gov't, or the USA's? I bet most people in the world think the American gov't
is pretty scary right now.

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[MightyYar (622222)]

I think it's safe to say that anyone who finds the U.S. government scarier than that of China is either uninformed or stupid (or both). I like the Daily Show as much as anyone else, but the picture painted by it is not really fair - it's a comedy, and unlike in China it is legal and common to criticize the U.S. government on national T.V.. I'm not saying that the U.S.'s image hasn't taken a hit internationally, just that - jeez, perspective, people.

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[MightyYar (622222)]

Well, despite your assumption, I have also traveled quite a bit in Asia, but that is irrelevant.

I did not say that I disliked China or the Chinese. I did not say anything bad about the culture, people, or even tendency to throw anything that crawls, swims, or flies into the night's dinner.

However, if you think that you are safer living under the authority of the Chinese government than you are under the American government, then you are not informed. Either that, or you are so consumed with all things Chi

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[MightyYar (622222)]

I thought we were talking about which government was scarier? How did you get the impression that safety while traveling was linked to that? Or were you thinking that your wife is safe(r) because of her benevolent government? And in my mind, "rotting in jail" because I said something not on a government's safe list is not part of "safe". Tell you what, go into Beijing and start handing out bibles or human rights literature - see where that gets you. Then come to New York and start handing out government con

Real useful law

[Dan East (318230)]

However, the restrictions have been applied narrowly, and effectively prevent only low-tech exports such as handcuffs, helmets, fingerprint powder, and tear gas

I'm sure that really makes a big difference. You know, since China is such a small country with few resources, there's just no way they could manufacture stuff like that domestically. Yeah, I know, it's the principle of it all (or, in other words, a bill a politician could sponsor to make them appear moral).

Unfortunately far too many laws are created so politicians can simply be seen doing something. Sort of like in our town, where a lady was killed in a car accident a few years ago (because her cat was loose in her car and she was messing around with it and pulled out in front of a truck), so the town quickly changed the intersection to a 4-way stop. Now hundreds of drivers are inconvenienced daily just because the local government wanted to do something the newspaper could write about.

Dan East

Dual use technology

[Introspective (71476)]

while DB software, two-way radios, DNA analysis gear, and video probes, are allowed

And these items could also be very useful for disaster response and relief - in other words, humanitarian aid.

The poster seems to be struggling to make a political point where there is simply not enoungh evidence which clearly defines what these things will be used for.

Sadly there is only one world religion...

[i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379)]

and it happens to be money.

What I really fear is the torture that Tibetans are going to endure before the Olympic games. They're gonna be looking for a platform and China is probably just gonna round 'em up.

Yet, the more you get China hooked on the milk from the capitalist tit the closer you are going to come to something resembling revolution and the ousting of Communism. It's moving pretty fast now.

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[dbIII (701233)]

Yet, the more you get China hooked on the milk from the capitalist tit

I've never been to China, but from talking to a several Chinese people it appears that China is already the most capitalist country on earth. People will buy and sell anything in China as distinct from the more regulated west.

Re:Sadly there is only one world religion...

[Denial93 (773403)]

>What I really fear is the torture that Tibetans are going to endure before the Olympic games. They're gonna be looking for a platform and China is probably just gonna round 'em up.

You underestimate the Chinese. They're going to run a huge campaign where happy Tibetans in traditional-but-clean garments smile into cameras before magnificent Himalaya skylines and say how much better their country is after the Chinese helped them electrify it, and how the Dalai Lama and his guys are really just a bunch of old theocrats who want their dictatorship back. There'll be local representatives ready for interviewing, guided tours through Tibet (with really helpful translators so journalists can converse with the locals freely) and all sorts of helpful press maps/video clips/etc. After all, this is the perfect opportunity: the Chinese will, temporarily, have all the media in the World to press down the Party's version of the story in everyone's minds.

Unruly Tibetans aren't going to be rounded up before the games (because the World could find out), but will be temporarily arrested "to prevent violence" during the games, to be seriously rounded up a bit later when the World has grown tired of China for a while, and looks somewhere else.

Unauthorised religions

[raahul_da_man (469058)]

I really disagree that supression of religions is something that the Chinese government does wrong. You only need to look at at America with its far greater level of violence to see that religion can bring a society to its knees. Or Zimbabwe, with its great religious tolerance record. Religious tolerance is an inadequate measure of freedom in a society. Iran is also a society with great religious freedom, where Muslims can practice their faith without limit. Is that a society that should be emulated?

Religio

What about the 'other big brother?

[houghi (78078)]

What about the comapnies who help the US governement spy on their people? Are the bad, or are they patritic?

I don't have a problem with anybody selling anything to China. I do have a problem with the Chineese policy and politics and I would love to see an embargo that forbids any country doing business with that country.

Yet an emargo needs to come from the country, not from the company.

Re:Unauthorized Religions

[creimer (824291)]

An "unathorized religion" would be the Catholic Church instead of the official Chinese Catholic Church or small Christian groups that meet in people's home. These are not fruitcake organizations that you find in the United States, although I'm sure the Chinese have plenty of fruitcakes in the Communist Party. Any social group that requires people to gather is considered an "unauthorized religion" in China since they might overthrow the Communists someday.

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[Marxist Hacker 42 (638312)]

Falun Gong = Islam (the radical, extremist, shooting out missiles that have no guidance system variety)?

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[shutdown -p now (807394)]

<offtopic> Is shooting missiles with guidance system any different?

I thought what really matters is whether you deliberately aim at civilians or not. </offtopic>

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[Marxist Hacker 42 (638312)]

Is shooting missiles with guidance system any different?
I thought what really matters is whether you deliberately aim at civilians or not.

Well, Hezebolah was doing both, so I guess that works (now whether or not they were hitting the civilians they were aiming at or not, is highly quesitonable- one would assume that their intent in attacking civilians in Israel was NOT to hit civilians in Palestine).

I doubt it

[Moraelin (679338)]

These are not fruitcake organizations that you find in the United States, although I'm sure the Chinese have plenty of fruitcakes in the Communist Party.

Actually, I somehow doubt that China or any other country is 100% composed of 100% sane and wise people, who'd _never_ be fooled by a cooky New Age cult. It's the kind of "in the Orient they're wise and do _everything_ better" idea that got us saddled with cooky pseudo-oriental cults in the west in the first place.

People are people everywhere. Some people a

Re:Unauthorized Religions

[Chris Burke (6130)]

David Koresh's cult didn't get in any trouble until it was thought that they were breaking laws. The existence of the cult itself was not illegal. If you rape children, force people to commit "suicide", or don't pay your taxes, Uncle Sam will come after you. Other than that, they don't really care. Sure, you can say there may be some aspect of some religion that is illegal and that it shouldn't be -- multiple wives, use of mind-altering substances, whatever -- but it isn't the religion itself that is illegal. Raeliens, despite being considered a cooky cult, have not been arrested simply for being Raelien.

That's the difference. In China, being a member of a certain religion, regardless of not having committed any other crime, is illegal.

Now I'm not one to appologize for the U.S., and I think "better than China" is damning with faint praise, but this really is a fundamental difference between the two nations.

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[zacronos (937891)]

Wasn't that what got Koresh's cult into trouble? Because he thought that he was God, and could do anything he wanted, including having sex with his own daughters?

No. Don't be ridiculous. Did you even read what GP said? (Seriously, am I just feeding a troll here?) It wasn't thinking he was God that got Koresh's cult into trouble. They could have thought he was God all they wanted. And Koresh could have thought he was God all he wanted, too. But if you break an incest law, you get in trouble, regardl

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[Al Dimond (792444)]

If your highway traffic-blocking religion grew from its humble roots to one day have a number of followers substantial enough to rewrite the rules of society such that standing in the middle of the highway blocking traffic was accepted, encouraged, and considered a Fundamental Right of Man, surely your far-future followers would condemn the actions of the present-day police as persecution.

OK, sorry for this blatant troll post, I need some sleep.

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[professionalfurryele (877225)]

Trying to think of a religion which doesn't try to isolate it's members from non-believers... does Buhdism do this? I don't know many Buhdists. Likewise, is there a major world religion that doesn't encourage tithing? Almost all religions are cults by your definition. I'm not going to disagree with you if thats what you think because I have a hard time coming up with a better definition, but that kind of validates the original posters point.

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[hotdiggitydawg (881316)]

Exactly. And it's not like PostGRESQL or MySQL cost a hell of a lot either, what with being free and all...