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U.S. Classrooms Torn Between Science and Religion
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Nov 23, 2006 03:16 PM
from the when-the-man-has-an-agenda- dept.
from the when-the-man-has-an-agenda- dept.
Dystopian Rebel writes "A New Jersey public-school history teacher was recorded telling his students that they 'belong in Hell' if they do not accept Jesus. The teacher, who is also a Baptist Pastor, lied later when he was asked by the school principle what he said to the students. Unfortunately for this dodge, a student recorded the teacher's 'lesson'." From the article: "The student and his parents have requested that the teacher's anti-scientific remarks be corrected in open class, and that the school develop quality control procedures to ensure that future classes are not proselytized and misinformed. They have also referred the matter for disciplinary action. No apology has been forthcoming from the teacher or from the school."
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This isn't a clash between science and religion. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
Quite the contrary. Dawkins talks a lot about the 'moderate' Christians, as he considers that a large number of those have a 'soft' belief that is succeptible to rational argument. He describes the antics of the fundamentalists in an attempt to get through to the millions. And good luck to him.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Informative)
He and the fundamentalists need each other, so he treats fundamentalists as the essential definition of Christianity (rather than as a modernist group under two hundred years old, and a definite minority among Christians in general), and they treat people like him as the essential definition of atheism. Both get the bogeyman they need to have people buy their "cure".
There is a huge difference between reading about him, and reading what he actually wrote.
This is so wrong. Dawkins is British, and knows well the Church of England, a far from fundamentalist branch of Christianity. He has spoken at length about what he feels about Christianity and religion in general, even moderate versions. If you think Dawkins is only targetting minorities in religious, you really haven't read him in any detail.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
The church of England is a very weird thing. At one end you have the guys over in the US and Canada, who are so permissive they're just about to get kicked out. Then there are the churches over in Africa and other third-world countries that are rather conservative (maybe even what you call 'fundamentalist'). And then there's the part that's actually in England which is leaning towards the permissiveness of the US and the Canadians. If things continue as they are going right now, the Church of England might not exist in England anymore!
At any rate, the Anglicans are a rather diverse bunch and it's unfair to make a blanket statement about them. Even my generalisations were probalby too much.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
Wonderfully put! They feel kind of mildly skeptic or agnostic, but believe that a belief is a good thing to have...
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree completely. Further, there's no scientific evidence that giant flying spaghetti monsters don't exist. Nor is there evidence that underpants gnomes don't exist (in fact, given the rate of underpants disappearances, I would argue *for* their existance!).
Therefore, as a true scientist, I choose not to take a stance on these issues until evidence is provided that *proves* that flying spaghetti monsters and underpants gnomes don't exist.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
Moreover, it is a pretty invidious distinction to say "well, the god question is old, and so real, but the FSM is new and just parody." I mean, the Jesus hypothesis was pretty new at one point . . . .
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it mocks people who believe in invisible things for which there is absolutely no evidence, who then attempt to elevate their beliefs to the level of scientific fact, or alternatively, attempt to drag science down to the level of religion.
Similarly, if I met someone who still believed that disease was caused by demonic possession, I'd mock them, too.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Funny)
Mock me not! I have seen evidence of this! Someone showed me this little tube I could look through and there they were, swimming around waving their cilia in scandalous and unholy abandon!
Still, they did look a little Noodly, but they weren't the rightsort of Noodly. And there weren't any pirates, even though I was looking through a tube.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
"Evidence" is a word with a defined meaning. You can't just take it and claim that "having a warm and fuzzy feeling about something" also qualifies as evidence, because... it doesn't.
If you need a word to describe your personal feelings about the existence of god, then go and invent one by yourself, instead of misusing a well-known terminus in an attempt to somehow give your personal beliefs more credibility.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called counterexample. The fact that the counterexamples used are funny/mocking (or even rude, to some) doesn't make them any less valid. You're right that the question of gods existing is a central question in philosophy. And counterexample is a technique VERY commonly used in philosophy.
He was going up against this:
There is no evidence for or against X, therefore there should be no belief or disbelief in X.
And he filled in X with FSM instead of God. The fact that one is a "central question in philosophy" and the other isn't is exactly the purpose of counterexample.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't be fooled by the rhetoric that atheism is inherently more rational. Neither the belief that God exists nor the belief that God doesn't exist have any scientifically admissible evidence behind them. A real skeptic would therefore believe neither. Dawkins, however, has a ton of faith in the latter.
This is a rather strange definition of skeptic.
Let's try an analogy.
The Earth is filled with custard - lots of it, hot and molten.
What do you mean, you don't think so? Surely a good skeptic should neither believe or not believe in that?
It is hard to be a skeptic by your definition - all those (possibly infinite) number of things to neither believe and also not believe!
All Dawkins is doing is being a true skeptic, and saying that he doesn't believe in anything without evidence.
Being a skeptic does not mean you have to be agnostic about everything.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Funny)
What do you mean, you don't think so? Surely a good skeptic should neither believe or not believe in that?
Well, that's a silly example. There's evidence the Earth isn't filled with custard. It has a magnetic field.
*However*, if the earth were filled with *magnetic* custard...
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Funny)
Of course atheists haven't resorted to some tactics used by people to proselytize their religion...
[Knock][Knock]
Homeowner: Yes, hello?
Atheist: Hello. Have you considered not believing in God?
Homeowner: Um, I hadn't really -
Atheist: Perhaps you would care to read some of these pamphlets!
Homeowner: That's okay I -
Atheist: They clearly explain the benefits of not believing in God. Not believing in God changed my life, and it can change yours too.
Homeowner: Uhuh, whatever -
Atheist: Don't you see what not believing in God can do for you? If you don't not believe in -
[SLAM!]
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
You obviously don't read many of his books (such as the latest one, The God Delusion [amazon.com]), nor listen to many of his speeches (most of which can be found on YouTube or at RichardDawkins.net [richarddawkins.net]), because Dawkins has made that seemingly benign group of people the target of many of his criticisms.
In The God Delusion, Dawkins examines how he thinks these people are able to compartmentalize their lives in such a way that makes belief in God possible while also having a natural and healthy skepticism about other, non-religious claims. For instance, most people scoff at the idea that idea that there should be evidence of God's existance before they believe in him, yet would demand just such evidence if I were to claim I had a dragon in my garage [godlessgeeks.com].
While Dawkins certainly loves picking the low hanging fruit (the right-wing religious wackos), he is more than happy to address what he views as the hypocritical moderates. In fact, he has said numerous times that he almost has more respect for people who are steadfast in their religious beliefs than those who are willing to blend modern life with religious dogma.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
They're not really so benign, because they give religion its power. Without them, fundamentalists would have a much more difficult time with their trash-talking and hatred.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians...who acknowledge Jesus with their, then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That, is what an unbelieving world, simply finds, unbelievable."
Bad #1 - Preaching hellfire and brimstone in a school classroom about science. The two ARE NOT mutually exclusive. Sure, saying you'll go to hell if you don't accept Jesus may very well be a fact, it has been well established that you are supposed to seperate church from state in a public classroom. To try to get away with it was stupid.
Bad #2 - Lying about it. He acknowledged Jesus with his lips, THEN turned around and denied him by his lifestyle. What are those very students going to think now?
If you feel justified in defying established rules and try to preach the gospel openly in a public school classroom, you have to walk the walk, and accept the consequences. You can't do this halfway. Either way he was stupid to try it, but lying about it makes it even worse.
Gives Christianity a bad name on every front.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Informative)
I'd probably say something like: "Easter was originally a Pagan festival that celebrated the end of the dark nights of winter and the coming of new life to the world in spring. That's why we have the eggs-and-bunnies thing. Some time later, the Roman Catholic Church thought that the best way to convert the Pagans to their brand of religion was to hijack all of their festivals so they tied in with Christianity. So they moved Jesus' birthday to Midwinter and his 'deathday' to Eastre - an ancient word for spring. Which is why we have all that hot-cross-buns-and-going-to-church thing."
Lots of people were crucified in Roman times. To non-christians (who don't believe in the resurrection) there's not much point in 'celebrating' Jesus' crucifiction in particular as he was just another bloke nailed to a bit of wood.
I say teaching about religious beliefs should be left to the RE teachers. I don't bang on about Atheism in my ICT lessons, why should this idiot be allowed to bang on about Christianity in his history lessons?
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Funny)
Mod parent up.
Don't. It's propaganda pandering to the oppressors.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
That duty requires them to teach the children in their care in the manner the community and government define, this is clearly not what happened in this case. Thus the teacher is in breach of their duty of care. T
It's as simple as that.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Every teacher passes on values to their students. Usually this is a combination of their values, and society's values. If you were cynical, you could call this a form of indoctrination, but really, that's what education is to a fair degree. It can help keep society stable, as it prevents a total re-evaluation of society's foundations with every new generation.
The problem here seems to be that this teacher's values are more in line with a minority (of religious wackos) rather than those of greater U.S. society (more pluralistic), and he appears unwilling to teach according to society's values rather than his own.
Parent
Free speech is not an absolute (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
-uso.
Parent
Re:This isn't a clash between science and religion (Score:5, Interesting)
Atheists on TV? I see plenty about evolution, which is basically atheist preaching.
Evolution isn't atheist at all. Even John Paul II, the last Pope, stated evolution was correct. He said something along the lines that "God" used evolution to create life. Of course the new Pope may very well change that. As for myself, I strongly believe in evolution but I am not an atheist. What I am is agnostic, "a", without, and "gnostis", knowledge. I am without knowledge on the subject of whether there is or is not any supreme diety, soul, or spirit.
You don't choose the things you believe in, they choose you!
FalconParent
Looney Tunes (Score:5, Interesting)
This guy shouldn't be teaching, particularly not history. Any loon who tries to tell a bunch of kids that (a) Noah's ark was real and (b) There were dinosaurs on it should have their license to teach revoked.
Marx was right, it is an opiate, because there certainly seem to be a fair share of the users acting like they're on something.
Re:Looney Tunes (Score:5, Funny)
Doh.. use some common sense. Of course the dinosaurs didn't get on the ark: That's how they becamse extinct!
Parent
Re:Looney Tunes (Score:5, Funny)
Marx is the opiate of the stupid.
Looks like he found your button.
Parent
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I just don't understand why people can't accept that others can believe different things than they do. If the whole world was just more accepting of others and respected others' beliefs even if they disagreed, the world would be a much, much better place. Not to mention that millions of innocent people wouldn't have had to die in ages past.
Because (Score:5, Insightful)
Because that's what God told them, and you don't argue with God. If God says "believe in me or else spend eternity in hell," then who the fuck are you, to use your puny humanoid intellect -- a brain so small that it can't even conceive of 1% of the Lovecraftian aweful truth -- to try to talk God out of his ultimatum?
Now let's say you're a caring, loving person to whom God has told his message. You don't like what God has done, maybe you even hate him for it. You don't understand its seemingly infinite evil, but you also know that you'll never really understand why God has done this, and you just have to accept it. And the thing you have accepted is this: you believe it is a fact that if someone doesn't do what God demands, they will suffer infinitely. It's not something you have chosen; it is the reality imposed upon you.
Is it responsible, given this undesirable situation, to stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist? If some hippie says that he understands the universe better than God does, and that "Be good to one another," is a perfectly acceptable policy (and it's certainly a pleasant one!) does that make what the hippie says, be true? Or is it deceiving, taking the easy way out?
Might you be willing to commit a relatively minor atrocity, for the "greater good?" Isn't it really worth it, when you get right down to it, to torture people, put them on the rack or burn them alive, writhing in intense agony -- even doing it for a decade if only a person could actually burn that long without dying -- if it might result in that person doing the right thing? What is a few minutes, or even a century, of suffering, compared to the eternal timescales described in religious dogma? You might not personally have the stomach for it, but "rationally" (please don't explore this too closely ;-) you know that it's a good policy to break a few eggs to make that omelette.
Think about it: is there any conceivable thing, any possible evil, than any puny human can possibly commit with their tiny limited means and impotent nuclear weapons (or even planet-destroying Death Stars), that even compares slightly or is anywhere nearly in the same league, to the infinite eternal suffering that a person will endure if they are not saved?
Killing people? Geez, everyone dies eventually. The long-term question is how many people are going to be saved and enjoy the afterlife forever, versus how many people will be utterly destroyed forever or be tortured forever by the devil's minions.
I think that once a fundamentalist really accepts religious dogma -- if they really believe it -- their seemingly-cruel decisions aren't really all that cruel or evil. They are executing the best policies they can, given a rather nasty premise.
My question to mystics is: What causes you to believe that? What do you see, that the rest of us don't? How did God's message get into your head? That's what's really baffling, not the things that they do as a consequence once they have been given The Aweful Truth.
Parent
Transcripts (Score:5, Informative)
Public school teacher tells class: "You belong in hell" [blogspot.com]
Transcript: A look at what was said in KHS class [theobserver.com]
Parent
Simple Solution. (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, learning and study are on the opposite end of memorization and faith. It's not just a simple difference of opinion among some "teachers". It's a fundamental difference between logic and reason, and blind retardation.
No person espousing any type of religious dogma should be considered a teacher by the simple definition of the word. They are not in fact a teacher at that point, but a malignant propagandist for a religious agenda that, 99% of the time is ignorant and bad for humanity, and the rest of the living things on the planet.
If there is debate between religion and science, it is no longer a class room but a seminary room involving a lame argument devolved between two parties where one side uses reason and logic, and the other side says, "The bible says so!".
It's stupid and pointless and if YOUR tax dollars are paying for it, you should be damned pissed off.
I certainly am.
God can go hang out wherever he wants, but not where my money is getting wasted by morons.
rhY
And fundamentalists claim to be the victims... (Score:5, Interesting)
This kind of crap happens ALL THE TIME. It is a given for any fundamentalist Christian sect that they will take whatever forum where they think they can get away with it and use it to give the hard sell. (And I do mean "sell", because it's not benevolence they're offering, but a product.)
Another Baptist preacher once used my uncle's funeral as an opportunity to try and convince the non-Christians in our family that we had better accept Jesus before OUR time was up. This jerk didn't even know my uncle, but just wanted to exploit the situation to try to get more people into his church.
Here, another typical instance of high-pressure salesmanship from a fundamentalist preacher, only this time it's not just you he's trying to sell his product to... but it's your CHILDREN.
So he tells your kids that they are going to burn in hell if they don't buy his shtick. That's damn close to child abuse.
He is a liar and should be fired for that (Score:5, Insightful)
Which Hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Which Hell? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Which Hell? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Fortunately (Score:5, Funny)
Happy to be one who doesn't need a religion to accept to go to hell. Finally a warm place to relax.
Parent
Re: Buddhism & Hell (Score:5, Informative)
1. In the earliest classical orthodox variants, if you committed an gross aggressive act against another person, you would wind up reincarnated HERE, but as a less advanced form of life. Thus after descending to being an understudy of a reality show film double, you would come back the second time as the particular molecule of virus that scientists rip apart to make the hollow double used to prevent the spread of virulent AIDS. Thus through your immediate torment and suffering for your action, you would help save another's life, and thus begin your climb back up the chain of karma.
2. In the teachings of Nichiren Buddhism, you experience a subjective emotional hell right here, right now. You know, that blinding screeching rage against the machine, and Bogombo Snuff Boxes. (Ask Kurt Vonnegut about that last one. Sorry, Kurt Vonnegut short stories are not available through P2P.)
3. In fact, you do not go anywhere. All you have succeeded in doing is making a minor conceptual mistake, for which Buddhism is quite lenient. You are hereby sentenced to another lifetime of approximately the qualuity you are experiencing now, to further study the error of your ways. Sound dull? That's the point. None of that artificial excitement of Christianity.
Parent
Re: Buddhism & Hell (Score:5, Informative)
What is reincarnated however is the negative karma, the suffering you have caused yourself and others is recincarnated into the cycle of birth and death. The good karma is 'absorbed' into the Cosmic Buddha.
Everyone is a Buddha, no matter how "bad" or "wicked" they are. It is a matter of realizing your true Buddha nature, the perfection of yourself and others sans the delusional thinking.
Doing Zen meditation (maybe koan study) and following the ten precepts is the only way to realize your true Buddha nature. The ten precepts are not too different than the ten commandments intrestingly enough.
Buddhism doesn't believe in any higher power or god. It doesn't really matter, everyone is responsible for themselves, God/god(s) or not.
As a side note, if you are thrown into a Buddhist hell, according to Buddhist pantheon seems like a far worse place to be than the Christian Hell. But in Buddhist hell you can be reborn into another realm by doing virtuous deeds and saving and helping any sentient being.
Parent
Re:Dark Ages (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Dark Ages (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet.
Parent
Re:Dark Ages (Score:5, Insightful)
They were filled with people with hopes and dreams, making discoveries and learning new things just like people do today. Just because they didn't have computers to post on Slashdot or the wealth of scientific knowledge we have today doesn't mean they were "dark."
Science was progressing, albiet more slowly, and for different reasons. Many "natural philosophers" made scientific discoveries while they were looking to prove the bible, or learn more about the nature of God and creation.
The Scientific Revolution roughly 300 years ago was when people started doing research for the sake of expanding knowledge, not for anything else. Yes, scientific knowledge increased and technology became more advanced, but to assume that everything before that point was just darkness and ignorance is arrogant, uninformed and shortsighted.
I have a strong interest in science, which people should remember is not working closer and closer to a definite answer but to a broadening understanding. Scientific study often enough doesn't definitively answer questions, it just raises more questions. For example, quantum physics. 100 years ago scientists thought they could close the physics books. Then Quantum physics came along. Now every new discovery raises more questions. I think that's pretty exciting.
As for creation "science," which is deservedly flame bait, I wish people would distinguish between people who are fanatical about the politics of "Christendom" building ridiculous museums when the millions of dollars should have gone to house the homeless and feed the hungry, and those who are followers of Christ. I consider myself the latter -- simply, a Christian. I believe God created the universe. How he did it is a matter for science to explore.
And I'm more interested in the why.
Parent
Re:This religion is just out of favor (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually it isn't. Science demands proof, evidence for every assertion. Atheism is the the lack of belief, so it isn't a belief system either.
Parent
Re:Guilty of copyright infringement for recording? (Score:5, Funny)
How can you be subject to the law of gravity, if you never studied law? (It may have worked for the roadrunner, but don't try it at home, kids.)
Parent
Re: Yes they are really Christians (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't get to decide who calls themselves Christians! Christianity isn't a trademark. It is what ever someone says it is to them.
The idea that people will to hell if they don't accept christ as their personal savior is, to my understanding, fairly mainstream Christianity. It is very hard to try and prove that one person's irrational belief is ridiculous and radical whereas your irrational belief is completely reasonable. How do you prove a difference? Trying to claim that your religion is demonstrably "truer" or "more Christian" on rational grounds is going to be a bit of a stretch. I'd say that most Christians aren't very Christian in the sense of following the teaching of Christ which centered primarily around caring for the poor among us. By that standard, the idea of a rich "Christian" preacher is an oxymoron.
Also, your analogy is bunk. Science is a system which praises reason over bind faith. It adapts its theories as more information is learned and tested. It is a system of separating what appears to be true from what is true and it slowly changes and adapts. Religion is a system of irrationality which praises blind faith over reason. It is designed to stay stagnant and never change no matter what we learn. It starts out with an inalienable premise and praises people for sticking with it in spite of evidence against it. A person could not be a scientist and still believe in a flat earth because Science is about Empirical Evidence. A person can be Christian and disagree with the parent poster because Christianity isn't a system based on facts and there is no way to prove a person's Christian beliefs to be "right" or "wrong."
Parent
Re:It's not a question of science... (Score:5, Interesting)
Turns out that the teacher was sitting in the classroom by himself, since the rest of the class took the cue from us and all bailed as well. He got suspended, not the students.
Parent