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Computer Science Students Outsource Homework
Posted by
samzenpus
on Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:08 PM
from the what-happened-to-putting-it-into-your-graphing-calculator dept.
from the what-happened-to-putting-it-into-your-graphing-calculator dept.
Carl Bialik from the WSJ writes "'If U.S. companies can go online to outsource their programming, why can't U.S. computer students outsource their homework--which, after all, often involves writing sample programs?' Wall Street Journal colummnist Lee Gomes asks. 'Scruples aside, no reason at all. Search for "homework" in the data base of Rent A Coder projects, and you get 1,000 hits. (An impressive number, but still a tiny fraction of all computer students, the vast majority of whom are no doubt an honest and hardworking lot.)' Some of the Rent a Coder users appear to be outsourcing their way through school, at low costs--probably less than $100 per assignment. The posting are, of course, anonymous, but Gomes traces one to a student at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, where an instructor tells him that Rent a Coder contributed to a problem of plagiarism last semester."
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Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
good experience (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:good experience (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:good experience (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:good experience (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:good experience (Score:5, Funny)
You work for Microsoft, right?
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because Universities have become the 13th grade, a prerequisite for even unskilled labor. A bachelors degree is worth about the same as a a high school diploma was worth 50 years ago.
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why bother? (Score:4, Insightful)
... see that's just it, that's the problem with college. It's become job training. Anyone with any SATs score can attend almost any university and obtain a degree in bullshit. But even the most apathetic student recognizes a degree in communications, business, marketing, multimedia design or basket weaving is worthless
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being a double major in compsci and psychology, having started in mechanical engineering, sampled electrical engineering and physics and philosophy and math, I'm comfortable (and qualified) to say that computer science, when taught at a reputable university, is very nearly as challenging and demanding as major disciplines in engineering, and quite a bit more demanding than the vast majority of liberal arts disciplines.
What you're probably bemoaning, however, is the lack of software engineering principles in corporate software development. That's a whole different animal than what classes you take in college (considering that a majority of professional developers today don't have college degrees in either computer science or software engeering, or indeed any relevant field).
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm curious how you experienced computer science that you think it's so easy? Where I attend, we are going through hell with late nights of writing elaborate programs which work correctly and efficiently, and read easily. And that was only first year, I've taken several algorithm design and analysis courses, theory courses, and practical courses. Also, even though I'm focusing my studies in software engineering, I've been taught how to create simple computer chips and how to program on the PDP-11 [pdp11.org] (which you may think is useless, but teaches us a wealth of stuff just by having to program in a low-level format). Furthermore, we get taught how to perform object oriented design and architecture on specifications.
With all that said (there is actually a ton more), I'm curious where you studied computer science that you think computer science is merely the act of clicking "Wizard" commands in Visual Studio.
I'm very insulted by your comment. You have made my four years of university sound like a joke and you've also insulted not only my education, but the education of every American and Canadian. I only wish you would have had to go through one PARTIAL course which I've taken...
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing here is that you're generalizing. The computer science degree you took might not be that hard, but the one I took made me take all sorts of math classes (calculus, algebra, statistics), all sorts of theory classes (algorithm design, algorithm analysis, numerical methods theory, data structures), as well as practical courses (operating system practical work with OS/161, principles of programming languages, recursive programming, artificial intelligence programming, object oriented programming, and linear programming).
First year alone there was a ~40%-50% dropout rate, and successive dropout rates of 10%-15%. The point is, there are places where they do teach you a whole lot (and I had several years of programming experience before I even set a foot inside the university I attend right now in Canada). Furthermore, they expect you to prove your knowledge of the subject very well by giving assignments that take more than a day to finish...
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Interesting)
The types of people who cheat in their CS courses are likely the types of people who'd cheat regardless of their chosen field. My wife teaches history (on the high school level, though), and there's just been an explosion of plagiarism in the last few years or so - it's just tremendously easy and tempting to CTRL-C CTRL-V some website into your paper.
Of course, what these knuckleheads don't realize is that the same developments that make it easy for them to cheat also make tremendously easy to catch cheaters - there have been course sections where literally half the class has gotten caught with a hand in the cookie jar, and it really, really makes me wonder what the fuck these kids are thinking. Forget about not learning the tools for your career - some of them are bound and determined not to learn a goddamn thing, period.
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Interesting)
Cheaters are everywhere, that's for sure. I was a teacher's assistant several years ago. I graded all the programs and quizes. My personal policy was to report every cheater. Generally we had them put on academic probation and removed from the class. I've caught 4-5. I only had 30 assignments to grade normally, so I had a pretty good memory of what someone did. I caught two because they had the exact same comments for their program, and upon closer inspection, had nearly the same program. The professor was a bit gunshy, and didn't have them removed from class. However, after I caught one of the students cheating with another, I at least got one removed from the class.
You have to a zero tolerance policy, otherwise students will think that they can get away with it.
Parent
Teach your children .... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a great age to learn this - probably Jr High teachers should do that demo to each new incoming class - "I can catch you out - it's this easy"
Parent
Re:Teach your children .... (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember once a few semesters ago in a class we were assigned to give presentations on some area of computing that we chose. I ended up giving one on Quantum Computing. I was under the impression that everything went well- until I got a letter asking me to be in one of the meeting rooms at school. I showed up and there were a couple of professors and deans and an FA. My first reaction was that my presentation was that good (yeah, I got an ego). Well they told me they had caught me cheating- and I was like "wtf?". Apparently my professor had googled around on the subject and found my website (everything on my site is under a psudoname) and found some of the stuff that I had used in my presentation that I published on my website.
The professor assumed that I had simply ripped off stuff from a site on the net.
I did eventually get it worked out- but it's worth remembering that a lot of people publish work on the web now.
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
-jcr
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:3, Interesting)
For the book report, h
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Why bother? (Score:4, Insightful)
School is now, and has always been, a system which teaches you to get good grades, not to actually learn anything. The irony is that this is actually a useful skill in corporate life.
Parent
Bigger Fish to Fry... (Score:5, Insightful)
What really needs to be done is for instructors to wake up and realize that most people don't even need to outsource in order to complete thier projects. After all, who needs to pay a "Rent-A-Coder" when so many instructors provide obvious shortcuts via working examples of the projects right along the assignment, i.e., Java classes, etc... Why "outsource" when you can decompile Jad, change a few variable names and viola! Project Complete. [kpdus.com]
To really combat plagarism, instructors should focus more on theory, algorithms, deisgn patterns, etc.., and less on the actual solution to a particular problem in $programmingLanguage. If you really must assign projects, insert subtle flaws or traps in the assignment that would make the project all but impossible w/out direct interaction with the Professor to clarify requirments, etc... This would expose the weak students, the obvious cheats. and give a clearer picture of what's really going on in the classroom. Problem is there are too many instructors out there who just don't care, and aren't in it for the right reasons. In other words, they just don't care!
Design for Moral Erosion (Score:3, Insightful)
I look at this as a kind of moral erosion that will eventually lead to greater teaching discoveries.
I'm a programmer and I did all my own work through college. But thinking about this problem of cheating in a realistic light -- so what if they outsource? They should get some experience in outsourcing, and if they start early then they will be well ahead of other coders who work in a project management capacity.
That said, it's dishonest to pass work of
Re:Bigger Fish to Fry... (Score:4, Insightful)
If? Look, maybe I'm just dumber than the average engineer, but without projects, I don't think I would have learned a damn thing in my Computer Science courses. It's important to discuss the theories of CS, but you won't survive in the real world without some practical experience.
The projects also help reinforce what you've learned in class. Talking about object inheritance models is all well and good, but the benefit really hits home when you find yourself copy/pasting code all over the place. Talking about compiler theory is all well and good, but it's not a whole lot of help when gcc/javac has spit out some errors at you,and you've never seen them before.
In short, someone who hasn't written much code at the college level will have a very rude awakening once he's out of school. Those who have cheated their way through the projects should not make it past the technical interview at a decent company, and even if they're hired by a second-rate one will be exposed within a week.
Parent
Let them do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Go ahead and outsource your homework. When you graduate and get a job, your company will realize you don't know anything and outsource your job to the same people. I've seen it happen.
http://religiousfreaks.com/ [religiousfreaks.com]Re:Let them do it. (Score:5, Interesting)
I know a few consultants in my area that don't do any programming anymore. They have a team in Asia and a team in Eastern Europe working on their projects 24/7. It's not a complete retirement, because you do have to negotiate cultural barriers (such as what "I need it tomorrow" means), and you are not within ass-kicking distance of the people you are relying on.
Parent
Re:Let them do it. (Score:3, Informative)
If that's your approach... (Score:5, Insightful)
Disgusting! (Score:5, Funny)
Cheating (Score:5, Insightful)
But what happens afterwards, when they're looking for a job and blow every interview since, well, they don't actually know what they're talking about? My guess, they blame the outsorcing trend for their failures...
Exams?? (Score:3, Interesting)
Going to a Java exam armed with a pencil and my brain was all the help I had, and by doing my assignments during the semester i learned everything i needed to know to pass my exam.
Cheaters will get found out eventually, if they manage to pass uni, they will not get very far.
You can only bullshit your way through something for so long before you hit the wall.
great idea! (Score:5, Funny)
Saw this on Elance too (Score:5, Funny)
Th better part was that the student also used his real name in the listing.
Some instructors make it too easy (Score:4, Insightful)
Entrepreneurship and "example" code (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, it is probably morally wrong for students to have "other" people do their work for them. However, sometimes it really helps to have some "example" code from which to start learning. I'm torn between the two teaching methods but I believe that a good balance is necessary.
As an Electrical Engineer I was forced to learn to code (despite that fact that I really don't enjoy coding that much). I found that sometimes when a student jumps feet first into something they have a really steep learning curve. If they start with sample code and then get weaned off of it then that would be effective.
Ironically, "some" of those idiots were blamed for plagiarism! Oh how sweet justice is when students learn "Quality Control" through cheating.
On the flipside, I've seen arguments here that those students wont get anywhere in the workforce. I could imagine a scenario where individuals outsource their "personal" assignments (in the workforce) to India
I know I'm ranting but its my style.... I feel that I'm at least semi-on topic and that, at a minimum, made an attempt to say something interesting...
Matt Wong www.themindofmatthew.com
Ethics of cheating (Score:3, Interesting)
It is obvious to all of us that cheating is unethical from the cheater's perspective. It only hurts yourself, it isnt' fair to the others, yada, yada, yada.
But, is the transaction unethical from the perspective of the industrious coder whom the cheater hires? Does the rent-a-coder have an obligation to look beyond the color of his client's money, and into the content of his character?
From the article, we see that Rent A Coder has "tried but failed to curb the practice before." Is Rent A Coder obliged to try to stop the practice? Are they obliged to try harder?
Wrong Major, obviously (Score:5, Funny)
Questions (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Horrible public university student-teacher ratios making assistance in the learning process not only non-existent, but also frowned upon. Said student achieving the boiling point in frustration and failing to have help, seeks aid, even if paid.
2. TAs teaching all the material, oftentimes in fields they have 0 training, with another person's lesson plan/material. I have endured too many upper division security courses now, with TAs that I rated between toilet paper and turd.
3. Onerous assignments by some professor that can barely speak english and instead should be enrolled in ESL 101, where merely deciphering the assignment requires a 10 year background in cryptanalysis and NSA supercomputers. "ha, I'll just give this to some indian coder, he'll understand my professor for sure!~"
4. Rote assignments that are equally dull, unchallenging and time-consuming
5. True students seeking more elegant/better/high-graded solutions. How many times have you cobbled together something that was ugly, functional, but practically a monstrosity. Spend a few more hours on it, with 0 forward progress, or outsource the work, then analyze the solution to see a better algorithm and incorporate it? Why get a C, when you can outsource some superior work, get a better grade, and learn more in the process?
I tried this once (Score:3, Funny)
It's not the CS students that are cheating.. (Score:5, Interesting)
From an employer's perspective... (Score:4, Insightful)
The students who aren't interested enough in the -science- of a computing project might bet better off majoring in Business Administration and, yes, doing the outsourcing. Leave the architecting, the design, and (maybe) the coding to the real future computer scientists.
A Professors Perspective (Score:4, Informative)
The sad fact is that when you cheat, you are really only cheating yourself. If you do not gain the knowledge that is taught in a course, it is your loss. You paid for the course, and did not get the benefit (the knowledge) that was there for the taking.
The most important thing that you gain from a college education is learning skills. By learning a variety of subjects, you gradually develop skill at learning new things. Learning is the only professional skill that really matters during the longer term (20-40 years) of your career. If you don't develop skill at learning, your career will plateau or fail very early.
The other observation that many seem to miss is that the easiest way to get an 'A' in most courses is to actually read the text and learn the material. Reading most undergraduate computer-science textbooks only takes a few days, even if you are unfamiliar with the material. (The math books take a little longer, of course.) Then, if you actually know the material, writing a programming assignment normally only takes a few hours.
The fact that cheating seems to be common has had an effect on the courses, though. I now give exams. It is amazing how a 3-hour exam can separate the people who know the subject from those who don't. I try to design the test so that I can write it in about 10-15 minutes. The students who really learned the material usually write it in less than an hour, and thank me for the easy test on the way out. But some of the students take nearly the whole three hours, and turn in messy piles of disorganized scribbling. I almost don't have to grade the papers -- I could just note the time that each student turns in the test and leaves the room.
Re:Likely not a problem overall (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a pretty big divide between utilizing some code someone else created to help solve a problem and outright getting someone else to do your work for you. Let's face it, there's enough easily accessible code out there that someone can cobble together a program in relatively easy fashion. Of course, it would take effort to actually assemble a bunch of "free" code to make it work. Is it any wonder that so many script-kiddie
Re:Likely not a problem overall (Score:5, Insightful)
Many, many, *many* are in it for the money, or because people keep telling them computers are the place to be. I'm in computer engineering myself, but I've had to take up through jr level comp sci courses, and in each and every one I see people who fail to exhibit basic programming knowledge, or only a middling skill level in using the computer in general.
Parent
Re:Likely not a problem overall (Score:5, Insightful)
And a lot of them are just mildly ok at math and figure you have to major in SOMETHING. I mean a lot of them wouldn't feel passionate about anything, but you have to pick a major, so why not computer science? Why does everyone here think that computer science is a field of study so noble, so exalted, that it and only it should escape the mediocre masses that muddle along in any other field? I mean, plenty of those English majors don't read books outside of school, and plenty of those engineering majors never even looked at a schematic they weren't assigned in class, and plenty of those astronomy majors don't even own telescopes. Just have to learn to deal with the mediocre people instead of urging them to go infest another field.
Parent
Re:Likely not a problem overall (Score:5, Insightful)
If you aren't passionate or competant enough in any field offered anywhere, well, you're better served getting started on your french-frying career, because if you can't pull it together enough to get a degree or trade certificate, you're not going to be able to do it for a living.
Parent
Re:You're only cheating yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
No. It's everybody's loss. These losers devalue the degree of Computer Science. Employers are starting to realize that a lot of these dolts don't really have any clue at all, and this alters their perceptions of CS graduates in general. I put in the long hours and hard work to really earn my degree, but many do not. Employers are not blind -- they realize that a lot of CS "grads" are total nitwits. This might lead them to believe that I am as well.
"You're only cheating yourself" might be true in high school but certainly not at the collegiate level. These sorts of people piss me off.
Parent
Re:Not a major concern (Score:5, Interesting)
You had 100 points to split up between everyone in the group and he'd add up the seperate 'grades' for each student and then multiply the final grade by that number.
So if the group paper was worth a 74% and your group 'grade' was a 94%... you'd get a 70%
It gave you the opportunity to penalize the asshats who weren't pulling their weight. And the people who did outstanding work could get a grade higher than 100%.
Parent
Re:My experiences with rent-a-coder and cheating (Score:4, Interesting)
I have done that before. I was bored one day, wandering around usenet, when I found a posting that was asking for an assignment to be done. It wasn't just the usual "I have to do X" but it was "here's my assignment, can anyone do it for me?" Well, I was young and brash, still in highschool and here was a university level programming assignment...
I initially just did the assignment for myself -- could I do it. When it was done, I decided to send it out to the guy with a note: "I'm only in highschoo, but this is how I might do it." What he didn't know was that I BCC'd his professor on the e-mail. A few weeks later I recieved a note from the professor thanking me for my honesty, chasting me for my dishonesty, and praising me for the quality of my solution.
Parent