AllofMP3.com May Hinder Russia Joining WTO

gitana writes "The New York Times is reporting that American trade negotiators may demand the shutdown of AllofMP3.com as a condition of Russia joining the World Trade Organization." From the article: "Music industry officials say AllofMP3, which first came to their attention in 2004, is a large-scale commercial piracy site, and they dismiss its claims of legality. "It is totally unprecedented to have a pirate site operating so openly for so long," said Neil Turkewitz, executive vice president of the Recording Industry Association of America, who is based in Washington ... AllofMP3.com says on the site that it can legally sell to any user based in Russia and warns foreign users to verify the legality within their countries for themselves. The site features a wide selection of Russian music, but is written in English with prices listed in United States dollars."

I knew it was illegal!

[Overzeetop (214511)]

"The site features a wide selection of Russian music, but is written in English with prices listed in United States dollars"

Goddamnit, how can we, as Americans, allow such a site to exist?!? Russian sites must be written in a native (or, at the most, european) language, and they'd better show prices in rubles. Well, I guess, euros would be okay as well, as long as they don't directly link to a currency conversions site.

I'd like to call, once and for all, for all sites not located within the US (or, um, England) to stop putting up sites in English.

Re:I knew it was illegal!

[Cyberax (705495)]

Actually, there's Russian AOMP3 site: http://account.allofmp3.com/shares/setencode.html? changeencode_mss=RUS [allofmp3.com]

That's not a different site

[Arker (91948)]

That's the same site, you're just instructing it to quit autodetecting your language preferences and use Russian.

You get the same thing from the beginning if your browser indicates it's in russian.

Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in

[Zeio (325157)]

This is egregious. Think about this. China belongs to the WTO. They use slave labor, actively kill and imprison union organizers. They allow massive pollution. They built the environmental holocaust the three gorges dam which now clogs itself with Yangtze river silt. They ban its citizens from owning firearms and use the military and as a police force. They use Yahoo and Google and Cisco technology, services and infrastructure to imprison and execute political dissidents. China executes over 10,000 people a year in an undocumented fashion with a maximum of two appeals.

China can barely call itself anything but a state holding its people hostage with fear and brainwashing. Recently someone in China who was being interviews by Nova or front line was shown a picture of "Tank Man" from Tiananmen square and they DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE IMAGE WAS OF! Maximum censorship OR total fear of even admitting that something against the government ever even happened. This was 4 students in the interview either feigning not knowing what "Tank Man" is or genuinely not knowing about the incident.

Russia who has valuable oil resources and a more European disposition and a moratorium on the death penalty sells a few MP3s in accordance with their local laws - something the pricks at Google (Schmidt) and Yahoo (Terry "Terrorist" Semel) say makes their anti-Chinese citizen policies in assisting the totalitarian authoritarian government with their persecution - and they cant join the WTO.

WHAT A JOKE. This is a total sick joke.

Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in

[poena.dare (306891)]

Yeah, I'm having trouble understanding why this is so "scandalous."

The WTO has already warned the US about outlawing online gambling, but congress is prepared to do just that. You think the WTO is going to kick the US out? I doubt it.

I guess it's just another NYT jourmammal being sensational. Nothing new here, move along.

Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in

[Jugalator (259273)]

This is egregious. Think about this. China belongs to the WTO. They use slave labor, actively kill and imprison union organizers. They allow massive pollution. They built the environmental holocaust the three gorges dam which now clogs itself with Yangtze river silt. They ban its citizens from owning firearms and use the military and as a police force.

But how many dollars do US lose on these activities?

This is about the World Trade Organization -- making money.

Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in

[snuf23 (182335)]

I'm sorry sir you seen to have an improper understanding of value in current American culture. Let me illustrate:

value of song copyright > value of human life

Now is it clear?

Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in

[Atario (673917)]

value of song copyright > value of human life

This is just a special case of the real formula:

(value of corporate profits) > (value of human life)

Re:I knew it was illegal!

[ronanm (92344)]

Hmmm. Too bad for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland and Northern Ireland (not technically part of England), the Republic of Ireland (definitely not part of England) and -- oh, let me see -- a good chunk of the Caribbean, no doubt a number of African countries ... I'm sure there are a whole bunch more I've left out ...


Well you forgot Wales, but that's ok everyone else does too:
Eurocrats leave Wales off EU map [bbc.co.uk]

if it seems too good to be true

[yagu (721525)]

If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

Long ago as Napster faded into the sunset (in its old form, at least) a friend turned me onto allofmp3. Promised me it was only $.10 a track and the selection was amazing. I went there, I signed up, I think I even may have purchased a few tracks.

But the more I looked at it, the more uneasy I felt about how legitimate it could be. This latest story confirms my hunch... they aren't. This other related article from Wired [wired.com] goes into further detail. Apparently allofmp3 is already offering downloads for the latest Red Hot Chili Peppers' as are tracks from the latest Shakira album (you can tell I'm from the vinyl age, still calling them "albums"). The prices are 1/10 the iTunes rates, and while the article doesn't say, it would seem allofmp3 has no contract or agreement to sell these tracks.

(From the Wired article: "..., World music downloading leader iTunes charges a fixed 99 cents per song, but the Russian site offers tracks for a 10th of that price. Songs from the Red Hot Chili Peppers' new double album, Stadium Arcadium, cost between 10 and 16 cents. The whole of Oral Fixation, Vol. 2, the latest album by Colombian pop star Shakira, can be had for just $1.40...., ")

I like what allofmp3 has tried to do, offer a vast array of music at much more reasonable prices than the rest of the world, but it does them, and the rest of us who would demand a more fair distribution model irreparable damage. The more "we" are labeled as criminals by our own actions, the more fodder for their argument. And, the more likely DRM becomes more onerous and intrusive and constraining.

Also interesting is the focus of the article, the barrier for Russia to enter into the World Trade Organization. I couldn't care less about that aspect, it seems a big stick and out of proportion that Russia should bear... but that's political schtick. I think the even bigger issue is this has put allofmp3 on everybody's radar, which of course means the RIAA, Congress, progress (i.e., the opposite of congress), etc. And if allofmp3 is selling rogue mp3s, it's bad for the anti-DRM community.

It's an eternal adage, and how true it always seems to be: "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is."

Re:if it seems too good to be true

[Kjella (173770)]

The prices are 1/10 the iTunes rates, and while the article doesn't say, it would seem allofmp3 has no contract or agreement to sell these tracks.

No, they have a compulsory license based on russian law. They pay a pittance to some collection agency and in return operate legally, not in violation of russian copyright law. Sure, the RIAA are getting their panties in a bunch and it's a pretty huge loophole, but currently it's not illegal. That's why they're changing the law this autumn.

Re:if it seems too good to be true

[by Anonymous Coward]

I don't really even see how this can be called a loophole.

They're complying with all applicable laws. And yes, contrary to the fud, the artists do get a cut. At least the ones that bother registering with the Russian authorities in order to collect do. Which is, you know, the law there. So how is this a loophole?

The RIAA doesn't like Russian copyright law, we understand that, but why should they think their opinion even matters here? The Russian Federation is a sovereign state, their laws are made by the Ru

Re:if it seems too good to be true

[mkro (644055)]

I like what allofmp3 has tried to do, offer a vast array of music at much more reasonable prices than the rest of the world, but it does them, and the rest of us who would demand a more fair distribution model irreparable damage. The more "we" are labeled as criminals by our own actions, the more fodder for their argument. And, the more likely DRM becomes more onerous and intrusive and constraining.

Okay, I'm having a bit of a problem with this one. People should stop buying this, show that we all are mature and responsible adults and get it from "their" sites, and then the restraints will slowly go away? How the hell is that going to happen? Isn't that like asking Rosa Parks to get to the back of the bus and behave so whitey can understand black people are civilized? In Norway homosexuality was forbidden by law until 1972. Activism and outright breaking the law changed it. If people had simply complied, nothing would have changed. Now, I don't want to offend anyone by saying this is more important than gay and black rights, but I think the analogy itself is valid.

Re:if it seems too good to be true

[brianosaurus (48471)]

Reading you loud and clear!

It is certainly not as important as civil rights. It is certainly not worth bankrupting families with ridiculous lawsuits. And its certainly not worth making the whole world bend over backwards to the whims of a few fatcats with an aging business model in a relatively small industry; compare the content industry to the technology industries that build devices for viewing/listening content, and they're a drop in the bucket. Its like a Flea barking orders at the dog.

With all the real problems in the world, it pisses me TF off watching a bunch of greedy millionaires complaining that they aren't able to screw over their customers like in the old days, suing kids and old ladies, and somehow trying to argue that piracy is robbing them of "potential revenue" that is orders of magnitude more than the total revenue of the entire industry.

Allofmp3.com is the best online music store. If they want to shut it down, all they need to do is bring up a "licensed" site with at least as big a selection, no DRM, and a fair price.

Fuck the WTO. Fuck them right in the ear. The W stands for "World", not "America" (and it definitely does not stand for that misguided retard in Washington...).

Re:mod parent up

[Jeff DeMaagd (2015)]

I don't see how oppression helps fight oppression. By not giving musicians their due, both the RIAA and AllOfMP3 are harming the musician's ability to use their skills as they see fit, especially if they see fit to make a career of it. I'm not the person to say that musicians should give their music away for free or at subsistence pricing. I wouldn't want someone taking my work and giving it away for free or a pittance unless I was getting properly paid for it and I don't see that happening.

And no, I am

Re:if it seems too good to be true

[TubeSteak (669689)]

AllofMP3 asserts its legality by citing a license issued by a collecting society, the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society.

In most countries, the collecting societies that receive royalty payments for the sale or use of artistic works need reciprocal agreements with overseas copyright holders...

According to Russia's 1993 copyright law, however, collecting societies are permitted to act on behalf of rights holders who have not authorized them to do so. Collecting societies have thus been set up to gather royalties for foreign copyright holders without their authorization...

The result is that numerous organizations in Russia receive royalties for the use of foreign artistic works, but never pass on that money to the artists or music companies

So, either the NY Times incorrectly summarized the way things work in Russia, or All of MP3 is doing nothing wrong & the RIAA should be going after the collecting societies.

On a seperate rant: I guess the third possibility is that Russia's copyright laws are morally wrong and need to be changed. Hmmm... how could the RIAA & their Euro counterparts accomplish this?

I know!!1 By inviting Russia to join the WTO!.

For those of you who don't know, the WTO is like one big Westernized cluestick handcrafted by corporations w/the support of their (large) governments.

The RIAA/MPAA/Software industry would love to get Russia into the WTO and Eastern European (former Soviet) Countries into the EU, later into the WTO. Once they accomplish that, they can use their handcrafted cluestick to beat the laws of those countries into a nice compliant & westernized form.

Those untapped 'markets' can only be tapped if the legal, political and enforcement landscape is appropriate for the making of large quantities of money.

Re:desirable scenario

[feijai (898706)]

In that way, Russia is far behind the US. Here in the states, business has purchased legilation so that their activites are no longer criminal. Don't worry, you'll catch up soon enough.

This degree of agitprop is so deceitful that it rises above the regular level of BS and does real damage to the conversation. It has to be stopped. Lobbying included, the US's level of graft, legal or illegal is not even remotely as massive as the graft in Russia, China, and most third-world countries. Russia is a tru

Re:Where does the $.99 of itunes song go?

[freedom_india (780002)]

Its like saying your local municipal water supplies saying, hey if you don't like my water, go elsewhere.

RIAA is a monopoly and should be broken up as such.

Why is it illegal for American Car manufacturers to combine together to conduct shared research, while it is legal for Music morons to combine together to sue a 90 yrs old grandma?

Just as well

[kimvette (919543)]

Russia is better off going isolationlist and not joining the WTO. Look at the mess we have here in America as an example. Our politicians have an incessent need to butt their noses in everyone else's business, despite the citizen base not wanting them to do so. We (meaning our government) has no right to tell other countries how to handle their business at all. Our influence should end at the border and tariffs, unless assistance is a) explicitly requested from others and b) supported/approved by citizens.

Don't listen to the US. Show a backbone like so few other countries have and tell Duhbya to fuck off already. Don't cooperate with the current administration one iota; wait and see what the 2008 election brings. Hopefully the next administration will be far less corrupt.

Re:Just as well

[Tweekster (949766)]

the next administration being far less corrupt?

you are adorable.

Re:Just as well

[Cyberax (705495)]

Why was the parent marked as a flaimbait?

I live in Russia and I don't really want my country to join the WTO, and it's a very widespread attitude here. WTO imposes too much unpopular restrictions (for example, we'd have to raise internal prices on gas and petrol).

Re:Just as well

[shutdown -p now (807394)]

Indeed, and the way Russian economy has been managed so far was by the Western recommendations. Especially in early 90s which brought the economy to what it is now.

Re:Just as well

[billoday (853912)]

Seriously... I remember complaining about American IP laws and being told, "if you don't like it, move somewhere else." The US has already subverted most of Europe, Eastern Asia, and pretty much every other developed country (at least on the books). So where should I move?

A one world corporate government

[bigsexyjoe (581721)]

The WTO, the World Bank, and the IMF are much bigger threats to self-determination and national sovereignty than the U.N.

Our copyright system is very peculiar, but very good for business so it will be imposed on the whole world.

"It is totally unprecedented to have a pirate site operating so openly for so long," said Neil Turkewitz

It is only piracy according to our intellectual property laws, which have very little philosophical or pragamtic basis.

Dear US citizen,

[by Anonymous Coward]

Who is running your country?

Perfect fit.

[Znork (31774)]

"The result is that numerous organizations in Russia receive royalties for the use of foreign artistic works, but never pass on that money to the artists"

With the way a lot of the music industry works, it looks like they'll fit right in.

"These collecting agencies are thieves and frauds because they accept money while pretending to represent artists", said Eric Baptiste

Yeah, well, pot, meet kettle, you two will get along fine.

communism

[wwmedia (950346)]

this is a country where for 70 years everyting belonged to the public domain, this whole american copyright stuff is a bit alien

anyways russians can always play the energy card, switch off gas to whole of europe and watch the shit hit the fan ;) by that stage WTO will be begging the russians to join

Re:communism

[HardCase (14757)]

anyways russians can always play the energy card, switch off gas to whole of europe and watch the shit hit the fan

Yeah, and they could also cut off their noses to spite their faces. I don't think that allofmp3.com is going to replace the lost revenues of Russia's number one export.

i have to say as russian

[skyfi (978768)]

we use us dollars in a big amount of places. So it is just called as "Standart Unit" in price lists (mostly in internet and computer hardware shops), in russian (Uslovnaya Edinitsa). So about piracing mp3's, not to much people use such sites (mostly called bydlosites). There are a lot of free sources and home networks

China

[alfs boner (963844)]

One way China is ahead of the game is their artists / music industry have given up on CD sales revenue. The artist makes money, or tries to, by selling concert tickets and with marketing tie-ins. In India bootlegs are available the day they are released. It won't come as much of a suprise to \.ers that, as the US moves toward this model, it is corporate profits and support staff who seem to be taking the heat / losing the livelyhood.

As a career sideman, I feel no pain for the old industry passing (especially the lawyers), but the job of recording engineer is going the way of the hatmaker. Actually that analogy breaks down: The job of recording artist and recording engineer are being merged and will not pay very well. There used to be more work for painters, too.

OT: There's a bigger issue here about labor and specialization - the best singer I've ever knew (hits in the 60s) was taking an occasional plumbing job in the 80s and wasn't bitter: The way he put it was: $30 an hour. This while commanding $2-$4k for 20 - 40 oldies shows a year. I didn't quit playing during the 90s net boom and still work a lot now. I also stay buzzword compliant - this year: AJAX(ugh) and psych-folk(cool).

Why RIAA cannot demand closing this site

[zpodcaster (951497)]

Everybody's opionion is that all this site sells is pirated music from the US. This is wrong. This site sells completely legal Russian music and audio otherwise unavailable in the United States or Europe: to 10 to 30 million Russian diaspora abroad. The problem with RIAA demands is that they demand a closing of a completely legitimate resource for such content for all of us, Russian speakers forced to look at empty shelves of RIAA storefronts and desperate to find hits of Russian music. The model of selling songs by burning them on bulky things called DVDs or CDs is completely dead, when you look at it from the prospective of a Russian speaking teenager trying to find a Russian 2005-2006 hit in the stores owned by RIAA in the US. There are none. Typically this stores sells some junk from the last century, so the only place we can get that music is from the sites like allofmp3.com. Russian showbusiness is booming now: have you seen any Russian movie from 2005-2006 in the stores owned by MPAA/RIAA? If Hollywood can't make decent movies for the last 5 years, it doesn't mean it's like this everywhere in the world. So, to cut it short: no: Russian courts are right, ignore RIAA.

Disturbing Trend

[Mateo_LeFou (859634)]

**AA have obviously decided to go full speed ahead, push the envelope a bit. See if their interests can be made to trump even national sovereignty. I put it at 50/50 whether the "civilized world" will accept this.

english&dollars

[Keruo (771880)]

English is well understood in russia, atleast among computer literate people, and dollars are as valid currency there as rubie. Claiming that only reason www-page using english and dollars as currency and located outside uk/usa just to ease piracy is bad excuse.
Russia has over 30 official languages, so maybe english(although its not one of official ones) is used just for compatibility reasons?
Perhaps dollars are used just to ease the price comparison against iTunes et al?

Maybe the US...

[abigsmurf (919188)]

Should stop imposing illegal tarrifs on goods from other countries before it starts making demands?

Re:Maybe the US...

[zippthorne (748122)]

But treaties are also an enumerated power of the combined executive/legislative branch, on equal footing with the constitution. WTO is a kind of treaty in the same way that NATO is. It just doesn't have the word "treaty" in the name.

Allofmp3: Completely Legal and Licensed

[zpodcaster (951497)]

Is it legal to download music from AllOFMP3.com? The availability over the Internet of the ALLOFMP3.com materials is authorized by the license # LS-3?-05-03 of the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society (ROMS) and license # 006/3M-05 of the Rightholders Federation for Collective Copyright Management of Works Used Interactively (FAIR). In accordance to the licenses' terms MediaServices pays license fees for all materials downloaded from the site subject to the Law of the Russian Federation "On Copyright and Related Rights". All these materials are solely for personal use. Any further distribution, resale or broadcasting are prohibited. The works available from ALLOFMP3.com are protected by the Law of the Russian Federation "On Copyright and Related Rights" and are for personal use of a buyer. Commercial use of such material is prohibited. Recording, copying, distribution on any media is possible only upon special consent of a Rightholder. The user bears sole responsibility for any use and distribution of all materials received from AllOFMP3.com. This responsibility is dependent on the national legislation in each user's country of residence. The Administration of AllOFMP3.com does not possess information on the laws of each particular country and is not responsible for the actions of foreign users. http://music.allofmp3.com/help/help.shtml?help=on# top [allofmp3.com]

The only competition is in lossy formats

[Overzeetop (214511)]

Let's take a look at a sample album (randomly picked - I'm not a DC fan):

Dixie Chicks: Taking The Long Way
#tracks: 14
Cost to purchase in crappy/lossy 192kb MP3 or AAC: $1.87
Cost to purchase in good lossy 320kB MP3 or AAC: $3.12
Cost to purchase lossless (flac, in this case): $8.78

Cost to purchase from Amazon, (lossless), with case, disc, and liner notes: $9.98

The difference between lossless at AllofMP3 and buying a physical disc is very small. It's not much of a bargain, quite honestly, to get the product from AllofMP3. It would make sense that to get a digital copy of the album from a US supplier would be less expensive than the physical article. Except, for some reason, it isn't. Somehow, the degraded quality copies cost more than the physical version here in the US (I'm assuming that iTunes is still 99c/track, or $13.86 for the whole album). They should be noticably less expense. That's what we were told when CDs were more expensive than cassette tapes: the CD, although less expensive to produce, provides a higher quality sound and therefore commands a premium price.

Once again, the RIAA seems to be paranoid that they might lose a stranglehold on the distribution system (i.e.: would have to compete).

I'm not saying that AllofMP3 are totally innocent here - they are just as guilty of exploiting the system as, say, the oil companies are of exploiting the increase in demand for oil, or small business owners buying a $50,000 Ford King Ranch pickup truck and writing it off on their taxes.

Wow

[nicklott (533496)]

The RIAA is now influencing US foreign policy! Scary country...

World Police at it again

[BestNicksRTaken (582194)]

"American trade negotiators may demand the shutdown of AllofMP3.com as a condition of Russia joining the World Trade Organization"

WHAT THE F**K?!

I think America is getting too big for its boots lately, I won't mention Iraq, but they basically told the Swedes to shut down The Pirate Bay and now they think they can blackmail Russia too - and over such an important thing as the WTO?

OK then America, you shut down Microsoft or we'll kick you out of the UN.

Priorities?

[vertinox (846076)]

I dunno... You'd think if they would deny Russia entry to the WTO... It would be... I duno... Say... Their support of Iran's nuclear program and their threat to veto any resolution against them?

Although, maybe pirated MP3s are much more of an existensial threat than nuclear weapons.

Is It Or Isn't It?

[itmfsshasl (978998)]

I have seen a few of these stories and NOWHERE in any of them are there any statements from any controlling legal authorities; just a bunch of FUD from the RIAA and it's cronies. Is it or isn't it legal? No one seems to know and if they do, they aren't saying. It does seem pretty cut and dried as to whether or not it is legal there. I have used it and plan on using it again.

The arguement that it is illegal or should be illegal because the Russian equivalent of the RIAA is NOT paying the artists does not make me a bad person for buying their products. If they aren't paying them...and nobody has produced any evidence that that have or have not...how does this make me in the wrong? I have no idea whether any store I have ever been too has justly compensated everyone back up the supply chain adequately if at all. If my job description is to include researching these things then the RIAA owes me a fortune for doing their work; and you had better believe I charge a fortune for my services.

Let's look at it from a different perspective. Shopping at this place is like going to the mall. It is out in the open. It operates like every other store in the mall. It has been there for several years. AND!...it even provides what looks to be like pretty legitimate documentation allowing it to be open. If I go down the causeway and eat at a restaurant that has done the same thing but has forged it's business license...is that something I should be taken to jail for? If I go into a clothing store and buy a couple of shirts and a pair of jeans...only to find out later that they are counterfeits, should I go to jail or be fined exhorbitant amounts? Here is another funny perspective on this. Over the years more and more companies have been offshoring..why? It is cheaper...not a little bit but bunches and bunches cheaper. We are told time and time again that it is WISE to patronize these other nations as they have a superior product to offer. In this case of MP3's, they are 100% correct. So what is the problem here? It would seem that they need to better police the Russian RIAA there.

Remember the time about 2 years ago when Chevy didn't pay the steelworkers for making the screws that hold radios in place in their cars and everybody who bought a car from Chevy between the dates of January and June of that year went to jail? Neither do I. Do you remember last year when the American cattle farmers didn't pay for the corn in the cows feed and everybody who bought beef last year had to pay a $25,000.00 fine? I don't either.

Now, if the site is legal, if I were the guy, guys, gal, or gals running this site I would sue the RIAA in court till they bled. Since the only thing it seems to understand is lawsuits...I would sue them, the people in it, any supporters of the RIAA and any others I may have forgotte right out of existence. The RIAA would become the multimedia version of SCO. A small little shadow of it's former self.

They, the RIAA, are screaming for this site to be shutdown. It is still up. I imagine it is legal and THAT is the whole problem here as far as they are concerned.

MADNESS!!

[by Anonymous Coward]

So wait - selling Cold War NBC leftovers doesn't even muster a UN slap on the wrist, but pirating trivial pop culture content is a showstopper?

Please explain to me how it is a recording industry group concerned about its monopoly could hold up a former world superpower, a nation of significant landmass, natural resources, goods, services and consumers, from joining the World Trade Organization?

While the WTO itself is a seperate subject of discussion, what part of reality did world leaders abandon to put such significance on any one single market as to exclude an entire nation's industry?

What a supereme coup these guys and their ilk have pulled off - the world now cow-tow to the notion owning and controlling ideas, instead of not just preserving and protecting, but fostering the creation of new ones. How shameful, and how disappointing, I see so little concern for this insane set of priorities.

Sorry for the bad spelling and words - I only started learning English 3-4 years ago. Ironically I started to learn so I could come to America, after reading my country man Alexis de Tocqueville and listening to my Dad's old college stories of how independant and voiceful Americans where - so why have not Americans been the first country to say no to what is clearly short sighted greed?

Re:MADNESS!!

[RLiegh (247921)]

We're getting around to it; right after The Apprentice and Survivor is over, oh wait, then there's Big Brother isn't there?

Well, shit; we're getting around to it, ok? maybe we can work a little during the commerical breaks.

He, that little gecko sure cracks me up...

Re:Cannot legislate morals...

[EvilFrog (559066)]

Stop being pedantic. You know what they meant. Semantic nonsense over what is and isn't theft doesn't change the argument, just the verbage. Take every instance of "theft" and replace it with "copyright infringement" and the arguments will all be the same.

Besides, "theft" is a fairly wide definition that applies to more than just larceny. In US the theft of services is indeed considered theft and charged as larceny. If something as non-tangible as services can be stolen, surely the definition can extend to

Re:Cannot legislate morals...

[babbling (952366)]

It's not a crutch to ignore the issue, it is a clarification of what we are discussing. There are important differences between copyright infringement and theft. There are entirely separate laws dealing with each of them. In sensible countries, one (copyright infringement) is a civil offence, and the other (theft) is a criminal offence. You cannot seriously claim that they are the same thing without dismissing a whole slew of important differences.

You stated that you have copied music before. Does that mean that you consider yourself a thief? Is the only thing that is stopping you from robbing stores the increased risk of being caught?

No it would not be the same.

[plasmacutter (901737)]

Why not just replace the word republican with "nazi", democrat with "commie", "homosexual" with "fag", white with "racist", or black with "nigger" too. oh yeah, that is unacceptbile.. how hyppocritical.

what they meant was to slander the idea of fair use and imply that it is immoral to do what the AHRA allows us to do in copying music with home recording devices and handing the tape off to friends. Just because it involves silicon and wires instead of dual cassette decks and magnetized ribbons doen't make it any different.

They continue to use this term to slander and demonize vast swaths of innocent people and innocent actions in their greedy pursuit of control, and do not have a right to use such slanderous language.

I Disagree

[Famatra (669740)]

"Take every instance of "theft" and replace it with "copyright infringement" and the arguments will all be the same."

Um, no. Depriving someone of their property seems very immoral, copying information not so much. In fact I argue that using the government force to prop up the business model that is scarcity of information is the behaviour that is immoral - unless you (anyone) have an arguement justifying the morality of using that force.

"Copyright infringement is still illegal, whether it's theft or not."

Yes, an since when is legality equilivant to morality? Since you bring legality up, I remind everyone that the copyright act could be repealed tommrow. Suddenly what was immoral yesterday would be totally ok today?

"The whole 'copyright infringement isn't theft' thing seems to be a crutch of an argument people fall on to ignore the issue."

Not so much as a crutch as they are very different things. As I said above, I think the concept of copyright (i.e. using government to enforce a scarsity of information business model) is itself of dubious morality when applied to individuals (which is a recent phenomenon). I have near nil hesitation over copying information, i have large hestitation over taking or depriving someone of their property - that is the difference and it is huge.

And this is what I'm talking about.

[Belial6 (794905)]

This is what I'm talking about. The "IP" nutcases throw accusations and threats at anyone who isn't also a nutcase. They see 'Pirates' and 'Theives' behind every tree. I simply point out that AllOfMP3.com (to the best of my knowledge) is a legal business, and that calling them theives is liable. What happens? I get accused of commiting a crime, and a threat that I will end up in jail is made.

Given that I have never purchased anything from AllOfMP3.com, I certainly have not broken any copyright, and I certainly will not go to jail for it. (Well... given the current political climate, the lack of commiting a crime is no guarantee of not going to jail for copyright violation.) But, somehow the "IP" zelots seem to think that recognizing Russia as a soveriegn nation makes you a criminal.

Seriously, until the "IP" folks can start to carry on conversations without seeing the boogie man around every corner, they cannot be taken seriously.

Re:Cannot legislate morals...

[servognome (738846)]

In economics, things have value because they are scarse. Bits are not scarse.

Original bits are scarce. The problem is there is no good economic method yet to reconcile high costs to create with low cost to reproduce.

So the RIAA puts special limitations to make it scarse.

No the government elected by the people makes special limitations to create artificial scarcity of reproductions. You can say the politicians are in the pocketbook of the RIAA, but that is more a reflection of an apathetic voting po

Re:Cannot legislate morals...

[cliffski (65094)]

The economics surey dictate that everyone should pay for what they consume. By this system we encourage artists to produce content that people like. If the people who make content arent paid, even if they are wildly popular, then the market cannot react to demand. Thats not good news. I'm glad Half Life 2 made money, that sends a signal to game makers that this is what gamers want.
If we had been able to download high quality DRM-free copies of the first ever series of star trek, and none of us had paid a penny for them, then the show would have made a huge loss. No series II, no Next Gen, No Voyager. Apply this to whatever music / movie / book you really like.

DRM sucks, but people enjoying content they dont pay for also sucks. In a capitalist system, its the payment in dollars from the consumer to the producer that enables the market to function. Take that away and the system will mean no more production.

Until now, its been academic, because with physical goods, free-riding wasnt possible. Now we live in an age where it IS possible for people not to pay for what they consume in some industries. There has to be a solution. I think DRM is a crap solution, but unfortunately I can't think of a better one that actually works, and removes the free-rider problem.