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It's Never Done That Before

Posted by samzenpus on Wed Aug 09, 2006 02:08 PM
from the how-did-that-get-in-there dept.
Graeme Williams writes "I really need something that will help me diagnose and fix problems with Windows PCs. I provide occasional support for more than a dozen PCs at my local church, as well as the systems at home, and those that arrive in the wake of my children. I don't do it regularly enough to have a clear model of how I should go about it. I really wanted It's Never Done That Before to provide that clear model, but unfortunately I was disappointed." Read the rest of Graeme's review.


After reading It's Never Done That Before, I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm looking for in a book about PC repairs. The first part of my ideal book would provide background information about how a PC works. For example, if you wanted to diagnose a problem that occurred during booting, it would help to know what was involved in the boot process, from the power and power supply to the BIOS and MBR and ultimately to Windows, the registry and the desktop.

The second part of my ideal book would explain basic techniques, such as how to change your BIOS settings. These techniques would form a library which could be referred to later in the book without further explanation. The third part of the book would explain things you could do before disaster strikes, such as backing up your data, and writing down your network configuration parameters, and most importantly, making sure you can actually follow the recovery procedures you'll need when disaster does strike. If you can't change BIOS settings when your machine is stable, you're certainly not going to be able to do it when you're terrified that a hard drive failure has lost Auntie Edna and Uncle Norman's pictures. My recommendation would be to permanently set your BIOS boot settings so that your system looks for a boot CD before booting from disk, but if the extra delay bothers you, you can always change it back. At least you'll know what to do.

Evaluating It's Never Done That Before against my ideal, the real book does better on content than it does on organization. For example, it has a useful chapter on what you can do before disaster strikes, and it has a pretty clear explanation of how to change BIOS settings, but they're not in the same place.

The fourth and final part of my ideal book would explain how to diagnose and repair problems. One of the reasons this isn't trivial is that a book should necessarily focus on the most common problems, but has to leave open the possibility that something unlikely is happening. One of the problems I have with my laptop at work is that when I eat lunch at my desk, the touchpad will interpret dropped crumbs as a continual touch, which immediately makes the cursor uncontrollable. Touchpads are not mentioned in It's Never Done That Before – but that's not necessarily an issue. Many more people will, say, have a hard drive failure than will have crumbs on the touchpad, and the book has plenty of material on hard drive failures. But too much of the book assumes you know what the problem is, instead of systematically going through possibilities – and leaving open the possibility that something odd or unlikely is happening.

One of my systems at home is an old hand-me-down desktop from my son. He had installed a firewire card, which remains, and a sound card, which he removed. I put in a new disk, which I partitioned as a dual-boot Linux and Windows XP system, and attached a external firewire drive. The first problem I noticed was that when Linux boots, it changes the BIOS to disable on-board sound. Perhaps this is some kind of "phantom limb syndrome" for the missing sound card? Some time ago, the firewire card became less reliable – at least, if the drive is on, Windows will black screen during boot. This can be avoided by leaving the drive off until Windows has settled down after booting. Lately, when Windows boots it has started to reset the network file sharing settings for the external drive. I fear that the Windows system on this machine is disintegrating, perhaps in anticipation of Vista.

It's not that It's Never Done That Before doesn't cover any of these areas. For example, it has a considerable amount of material on boot problems, including black screens. The problem is that it's not organized as a fault tree, where you start with no knowledge other than the immediate symptoms and proceed to collect data and rule out possibilities until you're left with the precise cause. One of the benefits of doing this carefully is that you won't prematurely decide whether the cause is hardware or software. Unfortunately, It's Never Done That Before just isn't organized this way.

The lack of organization also manifests itself as unnecessary and sometimes irritating repetition. For example, you get to the Windows Advanced Options menu by pressing F8 during startup. On page 46, the instructions are "When the results of the POST [power on self test] appear on the screen, press the F8 key until the Windows Advanced Options menu appears". On page 48, the instructions are to "immediately press F8 a few times" POST is not mentioned. On page 60, the instructions are to "press the F8 key several times".

The book just isn't clear about how a PC connects to the Internet and how that can fail. One indication is that the material is split between Chapter 13, "Internet Connection Problems" and Chapter 15, "Dealing with Hardware Problems", when there's no way you can know a priori whether a problem is hardware or software. Or for that matter whether the problem is yours or your ISP's.

Figure 13-3 on page 147 is the first of two diagrams related to Internet connectivity. The diagram shows something called a Wide Area Network which you connect to that is separate from the Internet Cloud. I suppose this might refer to the BGP AS you're connected to, but that hardly matters to most people. And having introduced the idea that you're connected to some equipment at your ISP, the diagram doesn't make clear that if you're directly connected to the Internet (without a router), your PC gets an IP address from the ISP's DHCP server, but if you're connected via a router, the PC gets its address from the router, and the router gets its address from the ISP. How do you recognize when your PC hasn't got an IP address from the appropriate DHCP server? This is needlessly hard in Windows XP, because the OS "helpfully" defaults to something plausible and wrong, but the book offers no help in digging you out of this one.

Figure 15-1 on page 169 includes a DSLAM (a piece of equipment at the local telephone company), which is a fascinating detail, but not really something you need to know even if you have a DSL connection. At least in the US, the key thing to know is that DSL wiring problems belong to one part of the telephone company (because it's the same wiring as your telephone) but Internet problems belong to a different part. If you live in the inner city, you're quite likely to have wiring problems (based on my experience with a sample of two and a failure rate approaching one per year), but if you have a problem with your line and you're talking to the wrong group within the telephone company you'll be rebooting your PC and checking network settings until you're blue in the face.

The popularity of wireless LANs has introduced a whole new set of problems. At home, my POSSLQ uses a laptop with a wireless PCMCIA card. As the the wireless router got older, the wireless connection on the laptop seemed to get less and less reliable. After avoiding the problem for a while, I stumbled across the length argument on the ping command, and discovered that the packet loss rate depended on the packet length. I adjusted the MTU and things immediately got a lot better. It's Never Done That Before ignores ping in favor of traceroute (which I find confusing for basic connectivity problems) and so would never solve this problem.

Even a simple LAN requires several systems to be up and communicating in order to connect to the Internet. A short time ago I upgraded the wireless router in my home from 802.11b to 802.11g. By systematically going though all the incorrect combinations first, I was able to verify that the procedure given in the router manual was both necessary and sufficient: power off the cable modem, router and PC, and power up the cable modem, router and PC in that order. I also support a local church with a local area network of about a dozen computers, which seems to have an endemic problem with IP address conflicts. In this case, I leave the PCs on and power cycle the router. These rules and especially the reasoning behind them aren't included in It's Never Done That Before.

I'm a little mystified why the author doesn't recommend making a live CD of your favorite Linux distro. If you have a problem that prevents Windows from booting, it's an easy way to connect to the Internet to look for resources. It's also an easy way to confirm more serious problems. I recently had a computer with a motherboard problem go into a reboot loop with a live CD, which was sort of terrifying, but immediately ruled out Windows as the source of the problem

I guess it's clear by now that I don't like It's Never Done That Before. There's a lot of information in the book which many people may find very useful in understanding more about how their PC works and how it fails. The book may very well help people with simple problems. However, the experience I've had fixing PC problems suggests to me that the book is not structured well enough to lead you through the process of diagnosing and repairing an unknown failure."


You can purchase It's Never Done That Before from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
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  • Don't worry (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    it'll do it again when the review is reposted in 3-4 days.
    • #1 way to fix problems i would think www.google.com, for a list of comprehensive problems - with windows you just can't identify the problem all the time. Just put n a phrase consisely describing the problem and it'll see if anyone else has had a problem. however i'm not sure how this works for windows, i mostly run linux and use a compination of google searches, forum searches, and wikipedia. A very important piece of information no book can cover is hardware specific problems. If you believe your hard d
      • That works perfectly for Windows. It's how I fix most problems people bring to me.

        Step 0 : Google for anything preventing me from getting to step 1.
        Step 1 : Virus scan
        Step 2 : Malware scan
        Step 3 : Google for anything that's left.
      • Re:Don't worry (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Rob T Firefly (844560) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:53PM (#15876185) Homepage Journal
        Googling is useful, but not the sort of thing you'll find in a how-to book. For one thing, why buy a book that just tells you to go online and research the problem your damn self? No publisher wants to sell you a book that admits it's not necessary.

        Additionally, the main reason most seasoned geeks try to keep some hard copy reference material around, especially if you're in a single-computer situation, is there will eventually come a time when the whatever the problem is stops you from getting onto the Internet to find out what the problem is that is keeping you from getting onto the damn Internet to find out what the freaking problem is that.. etc.
  • by Durrill (908003) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:15PM (#15875932)
    I was once looking for something similar and instead came across the book (Format C, Install Linux) which saved my life!

    /sarcasm
      • That's what the man said. Linux.

        Ubuntu or Slax would do the job, and Slax would install in minutes.

        But, hey. If you're looking for 'Just Works', try Linspire. It's costed, but it's pretty clean, so far as distros go.
  • by Dareth (47614) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:16PM (#15875938)
    Buy my book, but do not open it right away. Put it on a shelf somewhere, or even in a cardboard box. Go use,break,fix, work on computers for about 3 to 5 years, then come get the book, if you can find it.

    You will find the book to be completely worthless, same as if you had read it the first day you got it. But it will not matter, because more than likely the experience you got from owning it, and the years of working with computers will have given you the best "experience" possible.

    • by andrewman327 (635952) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:24PM (#15875992) Homepage Journal
      I agree that experience is the best solution. I troubleshoot lots of computers and I have certain tools based on my own experience. I carry memory key full of anti spyware software, an Ubuntu Live CD, a small cheap circuit tester, and other things depending on the need. There is a reason that A+ textbooks are so large: there is an awful lot to learn! You cannot hope the learn everything you need to know through one book. As you research different computer problems, you will learn more about those problems. Just remember to keep an open mind, look things up, and stay grounded when working on the guts of a computer.
      • Whenever you work on computers, it does not hurt to take notes of interesting problems/solutions. This is even more true if you are working on Linux boxes and still a relative newbie. While relearning is sometimes necessary, the time to do it is not when you have a dead/dying machine to get back up.

        Document what you do, and later with a little more experience under your belt, go back and see if you can improve upon what you did before.

        And for those of you who are utter genious and have excellent memory, j
    • My perception of what the reviewer wanted was a book on How to Troubleshoot.

      Maybe he didn't mean it this way, but it seemed that what he wanted the book to do was teach him basic critical thinking and troubleshooting skills. If anyone knows of such a book, please let me know.

      (P.S. I already have pre-algebra through graduate math texts, they don't count.)
      • Despite many objections, said textbooks are not worthless. I have a few myself, that I keep around for various things. A desk that is not quite level, needing to site in a scope on a rifle, mounting motherboard you do not have the right case for... all good uses of these books.

        Though I have to admit, as I get older, sometimes I find math a bit more intersting than when I was required to take the courses. If I had to take them again, doubt I would do it voluntarily, I might well learn more the second ( ok
    • I was just about to post this. First of all, it's true that in most topics, fixing computers included, there's no substitute for experience. But especially when it comes to troubleshooting Windows.

      I'm not on a mission to bash Windows here, but I've been fixing Microsoft Windows systems since Windows 3.1, and there's just no sense in it. A service pack might change where settings are located. The registry is a mess if you're looking for a specific setting. And in Windows, more than any OS I've ever dea

    • Truth be told, I learned 95% of what I know about computers from hands on at a local computer store. The other 5% was me trying to get games to play on a old POS computer which I slowly upgraded over time.

      The unique benefit of working at a small shop computer repair shop is that you get all sorts of computers coming in with all of them having mostly different problems. One of the games I loved to play is (and our motto of the store was) "Never format!"

      Believe it or not, many windows problems can be solved b
    • And to add to what you said (and I don't understand why they marked you as a troll) is that people often ask me what books I used to study or what classes I took and I often shock the people that ask by telling me "I never took a class on computer in my entire life nor do I read books on them!" (Ok... I took intro to C++ and Unix basics in college but we are talking about windows and reparing home PCs not programming)

      To learn computers, you need to get one and mess with it without fear of breaking and again
  • [url=http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/]BartPE[/url] is the Windows equivalent, pretty nifty. Although something like Knoppix is infinitely more useful, BartPE is still neat.
  • Someone who basically knows what they are doing doesn't like a book targeted at the clueless masses. Well color me surprised.
  • Linux (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rob T Firefly (844560) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:21PM (#15875973) Homepage Journal
    I'm a little mystified why the author doesn't recommend making a live CD of your favorite Linux distro.
    I'm just guessing, here, but that might be because it's "A Guide to Troubleshooting Windows XP." Cheezy "lol, Linux" replies to Windows problems are normal here on Slashdot, but they're not as common in print media these days.
    • I think (s)he meant so you can boot up your linux CD and diagnose/fix problems with windows.

      It's a handy thing to have when Windows refuses to boot even into safe mode.
    • Re:Linux (Score:2, Insightful)

      Maybe if you read just a sentence further, you would find out that the Linux CD was meant to help boot the system in case of Windows refusing to start at all (and maybe twiddle with system from there). Not as a replacement of Windows. I do this often even in cases of obvious hardware problems, because Linux often runs (be it with complains) in cases when Windows refuses to.
      • Re:Linux (Score:3, Interesting)

        No honestly windows cannot be safe in any fashion because of exactly what you said:

        You have to use it right.

        Ubuntu is a far better desktop than XP will ever EVER be. Because it lets you do some things and not everything. People dont need to be able to do every task a pc is capable of because they mess things up by doing so.

        Your average person needs restrictions and limits and a lack of options and the PC will run just fine for years.

        The average person doesnt even play games on their computer...they do IM,
  • I really need something that will help me diagnose and fix problems with Windows PCs.

    Just take the red pill: install an open-source OS. The answers will be revealead to you :P
  • by saboola (655522) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:25PM (#15876000)
    I need a It's Never Done That Before: Bodily Functions. I can't go into detail.
  • by David Horn (772985) <david@@@pocketgamer...org> on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:28PM (#15876017) Homepage
    "I provide occasional support for more than a dozen PCs at my local church"

    Can't you just leave them switched on overnight and let God take care of things?

    I'm SO going to get flamed for this... ;-)
  • From the article:

    Evaluating It's Never Done That Before against my ideal, the real book does better on content than it does on organization. For example, it has a useful chapter on what you can do before disaster strikes, and it has a pretty clear explanation of how to change BIOS settings, but they're not in the same place.

    Not in the same place?!? Aren't these two different topics? Yes, it helps to know how to change BIOS settings when doing disaster prevention, but why would it logically be in this chap

    • Yeah, that stuck me as wacky, too. "The book isn't well organized because it doesn't mix everything I might want to see all in the same place." is using some definition of 'organized' that's rather different from my own....
  • by pandrijeczko (588093) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:41PM (#15876106)
    Practice, dear boy.

    It's the same with fixing Windows PCs also and it's not something a book can tell you.

    My advice to anyone with a Windows PC is to get it right from the word go. I still cannot believe PC vendors will sell a PC with a 300GB drive in it with just ONE (C:) partition - educate users to use D: and E: drives for their personal programs and files, then when Windows needs to be reinstalled, the process is less painful.

    Also keep a recent Ghost image to hand - then if a problem persists more than half-an-hour, just reinstall the whole thing within an additional half hour.

    And in the interim, install a virtually automated virus checker like AVG Free, put Spybot and Ad-Aware on, and make Firefox the default browser.

      • Performace - try comparing a 60 GB vs a 200 GB NTFS partition. Read and write performance, as well as tendence to fragmentation or file system errors, are so much different between the two scenarios.
        Besides, do you just slap / on your only partition on your disk? Don't use at least keep /home separate? That would be very good practice.
  • by smooth wombat (796938) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @02:42PM (#15876124) Homepage Journal
    One of the problems I have with my laptop at work is that when I eat lunch at my desk, the touchpad will interpret dropped crumbs as a continual touch, which immediately makes the cursor uncontrollable.


    Patient: Hey dod, my arm hurts when I do this (swings arm back and forth).
    Doctor: Then don't do that!

    Seriously, if the problem is that your touchpad doesn't like having crumbs on it, don't eat over your touchpad/keyboard. Problem solved!

  • by Anonymous Coward

    It sounds like something you might hear in the same conversation as "It happens to a lot of men, honey!"

  • It sounds to me like what you need is a broad, basic grounding in computers, and that means A+ and N+ classes. To be honest I haven't taken the N+ class but I took the A+ one for easy credits and it turned out to actually be a pretty comprehensive look at computing. I suspect N+ is more or less the same.

    You could just buy the workbooks and study them, but to be honest, with the objections you in particular give to this book, I think actually taking the courses would be valuable.

    The simple fact is tha

  • I don't know if they still make them but I remember a place I was at for a while which was an IBM Business Partner or something like that had tons of troubleshooting manuals that let you go through the troubleshooting process one step at a time until you found the broken part and also explained either how to fix the problem or where to find further information on fixing it. And I have to say, in a way it was wonderful because all you had to do was go through all the steps until you had a working computer/pr
  • The extensively cross-referenced content of a true "how to fix it" encyclopedia may be desired, but the market for Windows PC's are a bit large for such an undertaking. Any author is going to approach with the "here's some background, check these categories" and leave you to discern the details.

    From TFA:"How something connects to the internet..." is by no means a simple process, when actually debugging connections.

    Overall, this review may be a bit negative because the reviewer did not have
  • by dpbsmith (263124) on Wednesday August 09 2006, @03:17PM (#15876368) Homepage
    ...I think it was Computerworld, possibly Datamation... circa the early eighties.

    The caption was: "So, how are your company's PC users doing?"

    The picture shows a guy in a suit behind a desk. In front of him is some kind of PC which has more or less exploded; there is smoke coming from it, the top of the case has a jagged hole in it, there are fragments of something or other all over his desk.

    He is showing not a sign of emotion: just a dispassionate poker face. There is a thought balloon over his head, and he is thinking "It's never done that before." No exclamation point, no italics.

    IMHO it is very likely that the jacket illustration was, uh, "inspired" by that old Computerworld cartoon... which in my opinion, was funnier.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    A book that would fit this guy's criteria would have to come in volumes, and be encyclopedia sized, and have updates every month to keep up to date. Its unrealistic.
    For example, he talks about BIOS settings, and "not in the same place." I don't know if he means the BIOS settings aren't in the same place as his BIOS, or they are in a different section of teh book than he'd like. BIOSes are all different, settings are probably in different places. You can't expect to have a rundown of every single BIOS layout
    • Do you know what "jump the shark" means?

      It's when you go way over the top to try to maintain interest in your content. Like having Fonzi jump a shark on his motorcycle. Or having a main character die (even if only in a dream sequence). Or getting stars of other shows to be on your show.

      I had no idea that having a book review posted in the middle of the day was so... extravagant.