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RIAA Balks At Complying With Document Order

Posted by kdawson on Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:28 AM
from the show-me-the-money dept.
Government The Courts Media Music News
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "When the RIAA was ordered to turn over its attorneys' billing records to the defendant's lawyer in Capitol v. Foster, there was speculation that they would never comply with the order. As it turns out they have indeed balked at compliance, saying that they are preparing a motion for a protective order seeking confidentiality (something they could have asked for, but didn't, in their opposition papers to the initial motion). Having none of that, Ms. Foster's lawyer has now made a motion to compel their compliance with the Court's March 15th order."
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Entertainment: RIAA Has to Disclose Attorneys Fees In Foster Case 193 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA has been ordered to turn over its attorneys' billing records by March 26, 2007, in Capitol v. Foster in Oklahoma. The 4- page decision and order, issued in connection with the determination of the reasonableness of Ms. Foster's attorneys fees, requires the RIAA to produce the attorneys' time sheets, billing statements, billing records, and costs and expense records. The Court reviewed authorities holding that an opponent's attorneys fees are a relevant factor in determining the reasonableness of attorneys fees, quoting a United States Supreme Court case which held that 'a party cannot litigate tenaciously and then be heard to complain about the time necessarily spent by his opponent in response' (footnote 11 to City of Riverside v. Rivera)."
[+] Judge Says RIAA "Disingenuous," Decision Stands 195 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Judge Lee R. West in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, has rejected the arguments made by the RIAA in support of its 'reconsideration' motion in Capitol v. Foster as 'disingenuous' and 'not true,' and accused the RIAA of 'questionable motives.' The decision (PDF) reaffirmed Judge West's earlier decision that defendant Debbie Foster is entitled to be reimbursed for her attorneys fees." Read more for NewYorkCountryLawyer's summary of the smackdown.
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  • I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Slightly Askew (638918) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:35AM (#18443989) Journal

    This is something I don't understand about the US judicial system, and maybe NYCL can help explain it. If a judge orders someone to do something, and they refuse, isn't it then the justice department's responsibility to enforce that judge's order? Why do we so often see a judge's orders ignored, challenged, appealed, ad nauseum?

    As an example, I heard on NPR yesterday President Bush's counsel inform the reporter that, should the House vote to subpoena Rove et. al., the White House would be refusing that order. He flat out told them, "No, we will not comply with a judge's order." Now, I understand there is a stickler here with Executive Privilege, but this seems to me to be a growing trend. What happened to the good old days when a judge would give an order, a person would refuse, and they would be thrown in jail for contempt until a) they complied, or b) an appeals court overruled the judge? Am I just naive in my belief that the judicial system was supposed to, I don't know, be able to actually enforce their decisions?

    • I don't get it either. I have a friend at Ropes & Gray - I'll ask him how such a situation is normally handled.

    • Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Informative)

      by tgatliff (311583) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:46AM (#18444155)
      The Bush issue is different. It is an Executive Branch versus the Congressional Branch issue. The Bush administrations , executive branch, is arguing that allowing the congressional branch to have access to the internal workings of the executive branch would undermine its "separations of powers". In the end, the Judiciary branch will decide if this is the case or not. In short, it will go to the US Supreme Court to decide... Keep in mind that no one branch has final say on anything. Each has their own special rights to balance the other... Read of the Separation of Powers to learn more...

      NOTE: This certainly does not mean I am defending the Bush administration... :-)

      • Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)

        by sconeu (64226) on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:07AM (#18444445) Homepage Journal
        Of course, this is the same Administration that, when we complain about the PAT RIOT Act, tells us, "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear."

        • Right... (Score:4, Interesting)

          by DeadCatX2 (950953) on Thursday March 22 2007, @12:35PM (#18446099) Journal
          Heaven forbid that the President's aides should be concerned that what advice they give to the man elected President of the United States ought to leak out into the public.

          I mean, as members of the Executive Branch, shouldn't they be, like, upholding the Constitution, and stuff? Why are they worried about their advice getting out? I would be PROUD to be an aide to the President, and I would tell everyone "Hey, yeah, that thing that he said? Yeah, that was my idea...." ...unless, of course, I was giving advice that I would be ashamed for the public to know...

        • Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Interesting)

          by dlapine (131282) <dlapine.ncsa@uiuc@edu> on Thursday March 22 2007, @01:37PM (#18447345) Homepage
          Of course, if the President didn't actually have a hand in this incident, that would imply that no "Executive Privilege" was at stake, se he wouldn't have consulted with these folks. And, of course, the president obviously didn't have a hand in the firing of these US attorneys, because that would mean that they were fired for political reasons. So why is the White House claiming "Executive Privilege" again?


          Of course, some scholars http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/20/215835 /227 [dailykos.com] don't believe executive privilege should even be an issue here.

          And the really fun part is watching the White House Press Secretary, Tony Snow, trying to explain http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_displa y.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003560724 [mediainfo.com] why this was bad for the Clinton Administration, but OK for the Bush Regime.

    • Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Informative)

      by Nimey (114278) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:48AM (#18444193) Homepage Journal
      A famous example of a court's order going unenforced is the US Supreme Court case Worcester v. Georgia [wikipedia.org].

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by coolmoose25 (1057210)

      The conflict stems from the fact that the Judicial branch doesn't have the ability to enforce the judgement - they have to rely on the Executive for that... for instance, "just throw them in jail" doesn't necessarily work, since the jail and the jailors are part of the Executive branch. If the Executive branch chooses not to enforce the law, they can be held in contempt - the President can be impeached, etc. But at the end of the day, even though both the Legislative and Judicial branches have the power t

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by GigsVT (208848)
        The executive is damn close to taking over.

        We have administrative agencies making new laws (CPSC, FCC, US Mint). The congress does whatever the president wants them to do. It's basically absolute authority.

    • Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Dynedain (141758) <{moc.nilcmynohtna} {ta} {2todhsals}> on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:01AM (#18444381) Homepage
      The Bush aide and District General issue is a special case.

      If the committee doing the investigation wants, they can issue a subpoena on their own authority. If the the subpoena is ignored by the Presidential administration, the committee can go back to the entire House of Representatives to vote on whether to hold people in contempt of violating the subpoena.

      At that point, they turn it over to the District Attorney of the District of Columbia to arrest the offenders and bring them to trial for disregarding a subpoena. That DA has the privilege of refusing to press the charges.

      So, those who would be responsible for bringing the offenders to court, are directly employed by the offenders that should be brought to court. Pressing charges against your own boss is not the kind of thing most politically-appointed officials are wiling to do.

      Now, as for the situation at hand. In a civil proceeding like the RIAA has been pushing, any party has the right to appeal or argue against a judge's orders. It's all based on whatever obscure precedents can be dug up to support your position. Whether or not the judge's order is overruled or rescinded is another matter entirely. Remember, this isn't the final outcome of the trial, merely one more movement of a pawn on the chessboard.
    • In a situation like this, it's not necessary to enforce an order that way. In these types of situations, if they don't comply the judge will just penalize them. If they don't comply with the order, the judge will just award Ms. Foster every nickel she asks for.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Aladrin (926209)
        I sense someone with an axe to grind.

        If everyone challenged EVERYTHING the judges said, as you are suggesting, the judges' rulings would have absolutely no meaning. So when a judge rules someone in contempt of court, they could just say 'I challenge that' and when that judge, or another, says 'denied', they just say 'I challenge that' forever.

        No, our system has plenty of checks and balances in place already. You always have the option of challenging a judge's ruling, of course, assuming that the judge in
  • Contempt of court, anyone?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by mwvdlee (775178)
      Because they're filing a motion, which they are legally allowed to do?
      I hate the MAFFIAA as much as the next guy, but what they are doing here is perfectly normal.

  • OH MY! Its so big! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MrShaggy (683273) <chrislight&gmail,com> on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:39AM (#18444053) Homepage Journal
    I think that they are afraid because its such an embarrassingly big amount of money.

    I don't know how much they were trying to get, but if they spent more then they were after, then thats a problem.

    Especially because it went so far. But I'm sure that they could sue other people to make the money, or even drop out of litigation and get a paper route. I'm sure that someones Mom might be able to cover the court costs, until they can pay her back.

    Sweeeeeeeeeet!

  • Could someone explain? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Black Parrot (19622) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:41AM (#18444079)
    a) Why does the defendent care about the plaintiff's billing hours?

    b) Why does the plaintiff care if the defendent finds out?
    • The court has ordered the RIAA to pay the defendant's attourney fees in this case. They want the RIAA's documents so that they can determine what "reasonable attourney fees" are.

      • Re:Could someone explain? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by kalirion (728907) on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:10AM (#18444489)
        The court has ordered the RIAA to pay the defendant's attourney fees in this case. They want the RIAA's documents so that they can determine what "reasonable attourney fees" are.

        What difference does it make how much RIAA pays its own lawyers? Shouldn't the attourney fees be whatever the defense lawyers charged? Does that mean that as long as I can find a lawyer who works for free (or only gets paid a percentage of the settlement, etc) then I can file all the frivilous lawsuits I want without fear of being forced to pay for the defense attourney fees?
        • yes. But if the RIAA had silently paid what the judge had originally ordered, then the defendant's lawyers would not have asked for RIAA lawyers fees.
          However, RIAA refused to pay the bill presented to them stating it was too high. "Too high relative to what?" asked the judge. "Too high according to the fees we normally get" replied RIAA. Next the judge asked 'OK, if so what are your fees?"
          RIAA: Doh!"

        • Re:Could someone explain? (Score:5, Informative)

          by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:49AM (#18445185) Homepage Journal
          It should be what Ms. Foster paid her lawyer.

          But the lawyers for the RIAA are complaining that the amount of the fees is unreasonable. If they're going to make such a complaint, then their own fees become relevant.

          If the RIAA spent $100k on the case, they can't complain that Ms. Foster's attorneys' $55k in fees -- fighting them off -- was unreasonable.

          If they stipulated to the reasonableness of Ms. Foster's fees [which were, in my opinion, eminently reasonable, if not 'dirt cheap'], then this issue would go away.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Todd Knarr (15451)

          Because the RIAA is disputing whether the defendant's legal fees are reasonable. So the defendant said "OK, let's see what you consider reasonable then.", and the judge said "Yes, let's.". The basic argument behind that is that if the plaintiff spent 500 hours on the case, then the defense claiming 550 hours on the case isn't unreasonable. Similarly, if the plaintiff's lawyers are billing $500/hour, a defense lawyer billing $550/hour isn't unreasonable. After all, if plaintiff really thought times and rates

    • Re:Could someone explain? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Volante3192 (953645) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:47AM (#18444165)
      a) Why does the defendent care about the plaintiff's billing hours?

      The defendent doesn't care, the judge does.

      One of the arguments the RIAA is using to say they don't need to pay Foster's legal fees is that the cost of their legal team would have exceeded the amount Foster would have needed to pay them if the RIAA won. ( http://www.ilrweb.com/viewILRPDF.asp?filename=capi tol_foster_070221MotReconsider [ilrweb.com] , page 4)

      The judge is now saying "put up or shut up."

      b) Why does the plaintiff care if the defendent finds out?

      Two possible ideas I can come up with...(disclaimer, IANAL, so these may not even matter)

      1, it's a disgustingly high amount which is now released into the public record, which could bode badly in future cases
      2, it's a stall tactic, plain and simple.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by nomadic (141991) *
        Two possible ideas I can come up with...(disclaimer, IANAL, so these may not even matter)

        1, it's a disgustingly high amount which is now released into the public record, which could bode badly in future cases
        2, it's a stall tactic, plain and simple.

        Another party who is probably very concerned is the law firm involved. Law firms tend to be fairly secretive about what they bill, and how long it takes them to do things.

    • Re:Could someone explain? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Skye16 (685048) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:50AM (#18444223)
      a) Because the plaintiff complained that the defendant's billing hours weren't reasonable. Apparently when you are suing for attorney's fees, if the other side claims they are not reasonable, it is apparently allowable to take the defendent's billing hours and hold them up against the plaintiff's billing hours to see if they are reasonable. If the plaintiff spent 3 hours on a case, but the defendent spent 3000, then that would probably be considered "unreasonable". But if the plaintiff spent 3000 hours and the defendent 4000, it would probably be considered reasonable. Basically, the RIAA lawyers sued a lady and was rejected (or whatever) with prejudice. She then sued them for attorney's fees (since it was thrown out with prejudice, this is allowable). The RIAA then claimed the attorney's fees were unreasonable. It is apparently common practice for the courts to judge the reasonableness of a defense by the amount of hours the (former)plaintiffs had put in, so the judge ordered the billing records turned over. b) Because either the plaintiff DID spend 3 hours on the case, making it look like they weren't doing due diligence, or they spent 3000, which makes them look crazy (and not like a fox). So they probably don't want this getting out - and it will, becoming part of the public record. Which means their anti-RIAA foes will have a field day with their spending on these law suits. - - - - - Keep in mind, most of this I gathered from *seemingly* respectible slashdot posts. On the one hand, it could all be right. On the other, it could all just sound right, but be horribly, horribly wrong. So take it with a grain of salt. Or an entire salt shaker.

    • Re:Could someone explain? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by UnknowingFool (672806) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:55AM (#18444303)

      a) Why does the defendent care about the plaintiff's billing hours?

      As I understand it, the court ordered the RIAA to pay for the defendant's legal bills. The defendant presented the plaintiff and the court with a detailed invoice. Then the plaintiff complained that the bill was "unreasonable." The defendant then responded with a motion for the plaintiff's bill pretty much saying "if it's unreasonable, how much did you spend?" Basically if the RIAA never made the argument that the bills was unreasonable they wouldn't have to be forced to prove what is reasonable. The court granted the motion agreeing with the defendant and is only trying to determine what is a reasonable settlement. There is precedent that a party to a court case cannot spend as much as they want on a case and then complain about how much the other side spent when they lose and have to pay the legal bills.

      b) Why does the plaintiff care if the defendent finds out?

      Normally the plaintiff wouldn't care . . . if they didn't have something to hide. My best guess is that these suits en masse would show that their lawyers are not spending enough time on each case and just filing against people without really researching the details. In other words, they are abusing the system.

    • (a) it's relevant to the 'reasonableness' of defendant's fees that the plaintiffs were spending money like there's no tomorrow on the case (b) only the plaintiffs can answer (b)..... what are they afraid of? i don't know.....

      • Re:Could someone explain? (Score:5, Informative)

        by eam (192101) on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:04AM (#18444413)
        > The Plaintiff(the riaa), was found to have no case.
        >
        > The defendant was allowed to get the legal costs.

        The defendant asked to get legal costs, but the plaintiff said the defendent's costs were unreasonable. The judge ordered the plaintiff to reveal *their* legal costs to see what the plaintiff considers reasonable.

        Then the plaintiff replied with, "Um,...what?"

  • Is a class-action lawsuit possible? (Score:4, Informative)

    by G4from128k (686170) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:49AM (#18444199)
    IANAL, but I wonder when the class of people harassed by RIAA will grow so large as to constitute a class for suing the organization. If RIAA is indeed making extortionate use of barratry, then falsely-accused consumers would seem to have just cause for legal action.

    Of course, if they do win, RIAA will probably try to offer an in-kind compensation -- discounts for music downloads.

  • Man they've got balls (Score:5, Insightful)

    by realmolo (574068) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:54AM (#18444289)
    The RIAA's argument against paying "attorney's fees" boils down to this-

    The defendant should've just let the RIAA win. She didn't *have* to go to court, and hire a lawyer. And so, they shouldn't have to pay her fees. Even though the judge said they *did* have to pay her fees.

    Unbelievable. If that isn't enough to get the Feds to start investigating the RIAA for RICO violations, I don't know what is. They really *are* trying to blackmail people.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by locokamil (850008)
      From what I can tell, sadly, RICO only applies when you've committed two or more "racketeering" crimes... in this case, it's just extortion. But if the RIAA and its ilk were to diversify into, say, the protection business while keeping their core competencies (extortion), an enterprising plaintiff could cite RICO.

      IANAL... would a real lawyer care to comment?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by CodeBuster (516420)
      Alright, but this does not answer the original question of the parent. If the judge issues an order how can the RIAA or indeed any organization or individual "refuse" to comply with that order once their appeals and motions have been exhausted (i.e. they have played all of their cards and they lost). In the case of an individual I suppose that they could imprison them for contempt of court until they comply with the order or in the case of a corporation some sort of fine would probably be in order.

      It was

      • Re:Man they've got balls (Score:4, Insightful)

        by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Thursday March 22 2007, @12:18PM (#18445721) Homepage Journal
        They have really overstepped their bounds. The RIAA lawyers are not thinking clearly at this point. They're so desperate to keep the client (and the fee revenue), and so blinded by the humiliation they are experiencing in Oklahoma, that they've lost sight of the constraints within which a lawyer must conduct him or herself in order to continue being a lawyer. The judge has previously pointed to an instance in which they 'flouted' his order, and to do it again, and flout another order issued by the very same judge, is truly insanity.
  • Can't she claim more than the attorney's fees ?
    • For troubles and having her name cited as a pirate ?
    • For the time spent
    • For being sued without solid proofs
    • For bad behavior in the court from the RIAA attorneys (i.e. trying to spread false information or playing on words)

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by AK Marc (707885)
      Can't she claim more than the attorney's fees ?

      Yes, she can. She'd have to file a countersuit. She did not, she is just seeking fees for the one suit. Let her win the fees on this one, then someone else, after this case sets fee precedent, can also file a countersuit. It is best, when faced with so many suits being filed, to tackle one and only one legal issue with each case. It's easier to focus on the single issue and win.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by guruevi (827432)
      Sure, but she'll have to sue for:

      1) Damages to the persons reputation and possible loss of income/opportunities/jobs/...

      2) Damages because of loss of income or jobs (because the time she has to be in court, she can't work)

      3) A little more difficult for a person, but certainly an argument in 1). The court however can decide to pull the BAR license for the lawyers if it's really obvious that they're suing just because they're a**holes or just want to take the courts time and consideration from other cases.

      4)

  • One big fishing expedition (Score:3, Informative)

    by Volante3192 (953645) on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:23AM (#18444697)
    Oy, the words are English, but the way they're put together hurts my head... but after going through the RIAA's responce ( http://www.ilrweb.com/viewILRPDF.asp?filename=capi tol_foster_070314Oppos [ilrweb.com] ) noticed something interesting on page 5...

    Plaintiffs' current counsel invoice Plaintiffs in accordance with alternative billing arrangements that they have negotiated with Plaintiffs. As such, Plaintiffs' counsels' invoices do not provide any information about the hours spent on any cases. Though counsel track their time for individual cases, that tracking is not part of the invoices.

    Sounds to me like this is being funded as a giant fishing expedition. I gather all RIAA's counsel has to do is say "We spent X man-hours today on Y cases." Doesn't matter how many cases or how many hours, just that there's X and Y. Based on what the RIAA is claiming, they don't even have any way of actually verifying their counsel's hours or case volume is accurate even since they're not getting itemized receipts.

    I'd figure with all the money problems the RIAA has, they'd want accurate records that someone can be held accountable to. This is like just throwing money to the four winds.

    • Re:Slow news day? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by iago-vL (760581) on Thursday March 22 2007, @10:56AM (#18444309)
      A link to a Slashdot article that was referred to. A link to a list of PDFs for all the motions and whatnot. And a link to the pdf for the specific motion. Are you complaining that they didn't link to a biased news story?

    • Re:Slow news day? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NewYorkCountryLawyer (912032) * on Thursday March 22 2007, @11:36AM (#18444905) Homepage Journal
      -there was 1 link, not 2, to the original article
      -why do you refer to the collection of litigation documents as a "link farm"? some people actually have the brains to want to read the documents so they can know first hand what is going on...
      -the whole article and all of the links relate to the title
      so all i can ask is: who do you work for?

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