Slashdot Log In
Google Using Pre-Katrina Imagery on Google Maps
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Mar 31, 2007 02:46 PM
from the errr-huh dept.
from the errr-huh dept.
Thirdsin writes "CNN reports that images of lands devastated by Hurricane Katrina have been replaced on Google's map service with pre-Hurricane Katrina imagery. Now a subcommittee from The House Committee on Science and Technology has asked CEO Eric Schmidt for Google's motivation behind the
imagery switch. '[Congressional subcommittee chair Brad] Miller asked Google to brief his staff by April 6 on who made the decision to replace the imagery with pre-Katrina images, and to disclose if Google was contacted by the city, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the U.S. Geological Survey or any other government entity about changing the imagery. "To use older, pre-Katrina imagery when more recent images are available without some explanation as to why appears to be fundamentally dishonest," Miller said.' It is worth pointing out that images from Google Earth have not been changed."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
We'll never know (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Google used to use newer (flooded) images, then went back to older (unflooded) ones. It's not that they're outdated that's strange, it's that they went backwards.
Isn't it fairly obvious? Images of land under 6 feet of water are largely useless for navigation. If the newest images they have are flood images, it stands to reason that at some point you'd want to get some images showing dry land, with streets, landmarks, etc. If all you have that shows that is pre-flood images, your only choice is to go back to the older images until the satellite images are updated.
Dependency on Google (Score:5, Interesting)
My guess is that one reason the senator cares is that his staff rely on Google to get their job done. It's interesting to see that throughout the federal government, workers are becoming dependent on various Google information services despite the fact that the govt. has put a lot of effort into building its own mapping services .
I wonder what other parts of government are dependent on Google's functionality, and what would happen if Google was interrupted.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My guess is that one reason the senator cares is that his staff rely on Google to get their job done. It's interesting to see that throughout the federal government, workers are becoming dependent on various Google information services despite the fact that the govt. has put a lot of effort into building its own mapping services.
I see this as a good thing. Lets have massive reductions in the government mapping department. Fire some unnecessary employees and make whatever raw photos and GIS data the government collects easily available to google maps and potential competitors.
Re:Dependency on Google (Score:4, Insightful)
Becoming dependent on a commercial entity for providing you with data important for the ability of your democraticaly chosen government to take decisions is extremely dangerous.
When you on occasion not like the actions of your elected officials you would take corrective action at the next election, something you can't do with a Google.
Parent
Re:Dependency on Google (Score:5, Informative)
Lots of the folks in the GIS group use google maps and google earth for quick and dirty stuff. We even use a google maps mashup on our main site for anything that requires a quick and dirty mapping application (voting locations, locations of sex offendors, etc)
That said, it is not a replacement for the GIS department, but it does help keep the size of the department in check. There are a few gotchas with the use of google:
1) Google earth is not free.
It is free for non-commercial use only. Everybody else has to pay.
2) The imagery is old
We do flyovers every two years minimum. The stuff on google is often 5+ years old for some parts of the county (the copyright date gets updated, but the images do not)
3) The data is not nearly as accurate
For quick and dirty work, google earth is ok. But we have had to work on areas where google only has 1m or worse. We have 6" resolution for the entire county. It is also been rectified and fixed and things like plot lines and street centerlines are dead on. I've played with image overlays before, and google can be 20+ ft off in one direction or another. That is simply not acceptable when you are trying to figure out where you are going to put a street.
4) Ever try and plot a 6' by 42" map using google earth at full resolution with plot line overlays and dozen of other custom features that the customer wants for a presentation? Didn't think so.
So, if all the gis department does is provide non-rectified 1 meter satellite photos from 10 years ago... yeah, time to ditch them and use google. For anything else, you are going to need a gis group.... It does not have to be large, but it better exist.
Parent
I find it hard to believe anything malicious (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory, but I'd be willing to bet it was simply decided based on quality/resolution of images, and some underling working on it didn't really think about the fact that it the imagery in question is significantly different from how it looks now.
Re: (Score:2)
If I do a map of my home, in far-from-Katrina-hit Florida, the imagary is also around two years old (at least.) It's not newly replaced either, it's been pretty much the same maps since I discovered Google maps.
I'd be surprised if Google has replaced anything, if they have I suspect it was a case of newer imagery being prematurely released and then removed, not anything aimed at New Orleans.
Re: (Score:2)
I dunno. The after pictures seemed to have as high a resolution as the before pics IMO.
Re:I find it hard to believe anything malicious (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to take you up on your bet.
If google regularly revises its images on google maps, sometimes rolling them back in time for reasons of quality or resolution, I'd believe it. I doubt that any American would mistakenly upload old images of New Orleans, no matter their seniority or expertise, given what a giant story Katrina was. If it was a simple underling's error, why hasn't it been rolled back yet?
One factor you are ignoring is that by using old images, they have made their maps less accurate. The idea of a map is that you know where you are and what the things around you look like. Imagine they had access to super hi-rez satellite images from the 1980s. Should they use them? They *do* have higher resolution
Of course not! Lots has changed and been built in the US since the 1980s. You would just be creating a very hi-rez, inaccurate map. Who needs that? Who cares if you have higher-rez images of the past? You don't want them on a current map.
The fact is that the fallout from Katrina, and the fact that very little has improved two years later, is a serious blight on America's image as a first-world-nation. You expect this kind of thing in Africa or South America. I don't have any evidence for my particular interpretation, but you certainly don't have any for yours.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
One factor that you ignoring, is the 'newer' imagery wasn't particulary accurate either. They showed a city deluged by water - which it hasn't been for over a year now.
Niether the old *or* the new is particularly correct with regards to current conditions.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thing is the current administration bears much of the responsibility, and I am sure they would like to have it covered up as much as possible. One way would be
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)
The simple explanation (Score:2)
What-the? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't we have... I don't know, something related to government services that they should be doing? Or, if it's going to be related to business, related to business that has a significant impact on consumers? Or poverty? Or taxes? Or services? Or the debt? We (as a nation) have a nine trillion dollar credit card debt, and we're worried about whether google's mapping decision was something we can get into a political scuffle about?
Re: (Score:2)
And I'm not sure I understand what you are implying they should be doing about credit card debt.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That is no doubt true, but the question still remains - what makes this an issue requiring the involvement of government? I fail to see how it's any of the government's business what kind of images Google posts.
Re: (Score:2)
Huh? (Score:2)
just use Google Earth (Score:2, Insightful)
Just use Google Earth if you're going to do anything GIS-related.
Re: (Score:2)
4-dimensional imagery (Score:2, Insightful)
Add add animation for changes over time and presto you've got a 4-D map!
Maybe this is the non-working mock-up prototype???
Googleearth and googlemaps the same for me (Score:3, Informative)
Thad
Google Earth has been changed as well. (Score:2)
It's fracking useless, guys. Nice going.
Visibility of streets? (Score:2, Interesting)
BTW, what about date tagging for each given area (whatever size would be best, I can't guess) you see in GoogleEarth? After all, the image data gets updated continuosly, but also irregularily. It would be nice to even have a history for comparison for each area.
It's a map. (Score:2, Funny)
How could they know? (Score:2)
We've got to be able to get some imagery on that area, old or new. Well how could they be changing them if they don't know we're coming?
I only get cached images. Are you sure?
Pull up! All Congressional subcommittee members pull up!
In other news (Score:4, Funny)
Interesting...
Re:Surprising mistake by Google (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed. Noting this, [Congressional subcommittee chair Brad] Miller was quoted as saying, "To use a straight line path across the map when greater circular paths are shorter without some explanation as to why appears to be fundamentally dishonest."
Parent
Google can do what they want, *but*... (Score:2, Insightful)
While Google can do whatever they want, *if* some government agency or official asked them to revert to older maps (not that anyone would *ever* try to whitewash their pathetic failures or anything), that would be something to investigate. (We have a long hi
This is bogus (Score:3, Insightful)
Google Earth/Maps are geospatial tools for navigation, data visualization, aggregation, etc. It is NOT a political weapon, and it is not an ELT for interpreting imagery. If you have imagery of flooded streets or debris covered areas, you DON'T USE IT for navigation. You use imagery that shows the streets and matches your vector data.
Re:Congress: STFU. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
your sig (Score:3, Funny)
Do I get half a point for being tortured at a turkish bath in Istanbul?
Re:Congress: STFU. (Score:5, Informative)
"Wal-Mart has given $17 million in cash, the largest corporate cash contribution to date, in addition to $3 million in products.
{USA Today] reports there are advantages to donating products instead of cash. The Internal Revenue Service allows a tax deduction greater than the products' costs..." Corporate Katrina gifts could top $1B [cnn.com] September 13, 2005
FEMA provided about $6 billion dollars in aid directly to Katrina victims Katrina fraud cases [katc.com]
Parent
Re:Congress: STFU. (Score:5, Informative)
"Why should my tax dollars go to people who have chosen to live in disaster-prone areas?"
Why should my tax dollars go to people who have chosen to live in areas that DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH WATER TO SUPPORT THE POPULATION except through federally funded water projects?
http://cals.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/janfeb07/feat
STFU, really.
--
BMO
Parent
Re:Congress: STFU. (Score:5, Funny)
You both need to GTFO and STFU. Give me money for not deciding to live somewhere people shouldn't be living.
And with that money, I will invest in plywood sales in Florida.. yesss..
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I won't even comment on your racist "non-white people who survive on government assistance", it's a bullshit argument that can not be supported by any real evidence. As far as Florida relying on income from the federal government, I'd point you here [url]http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/2 6 6.html[/url] in 2004 Florida received $1.02 in federal spending for every $1.00 collected from it in 2004, putting it at #30, New York, California, and New Jersey
Re:Congress: STFU. (Score:5, Insightful)
You're failing to look at the big picture. The reason is because New Orleans is one of the busiest ports in the world. All of the goods we send down the Mississippi river enter the ocean through the port of New Orleans. Of course, the port is more than just long docks and loading cranes. Part of the infrastructure of the port are the human workers who actually make the thing go. All of the people who live in New Orleans provide the human infrastructure to keep the port running. That's the reason they live there -- the port needs human laborers to keep the cargo coming in. Those human laborers need places to sleep at night, places to eat, places to buy groceries from, etc. You get the idea.
The problem with ports is that they have to be on the water. We can't build ports in the middle of Montana so that they will be safe from hurricanes. Ports, which hopefully I don't need to explain are a vital part of our infrastructure, will periodically be threatened by flooding and hurricanes. As a society, we have to band together to create massive projects such as ports so we can import our morning coffee from South America and send our DVDs to Europe. You won't personally be conscripted to work on the port itself, like in the pyramid-building days of ancient Egypt, but you will have to pitch in some money in the form of taxes. Or, we could just let our ports be destroyed, one by one, after each flood or hurricane. We don't really *need* bananas from Brazil, or rice from China. But I don't think you'll find much to eat in the middle of your desert.
As a society, we did fuck up the New Orleans situation. We had a horrifically inadequate levy system. Politicians at all levels failed to bring them up to par for decades. As a society, we didn't plan ahead to protect our infrastructure, and now we are paying for it.
I do agree that if people are taking risks, such as building million-dollar beachfront homes in California or Florida, we don't need to subsidize them through taxes. However, we do need a port on the mouth of the Mississippi, and we need to make sure that that port will be manned no matter what natural disasters threaten it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
True, however (Score:3, Interesting)
While I agree that tax money is well spent rebuilding infrastructure I think it is reasonable to
Re: (Score:3)
Judging by your lack of empathy, you are quite possibly Autistic. It's quite simple really, "no man is an island", however your post lends weight to the argument that you are "no man".
"Where's my government check for not being a burden on the rest of the country?"
On the contrary, the illogical, whinny, callous expressions of greed and selfishness so eloquently portrayed in your post is definitely a burden, not only for your fellow contrymen but for humanity as a whole.
Re: (Score:2)
For all we know it was just because imagery taken earlier made a nicer mosaic next to the other satellite imagery they had and scored higher on some resolution vs. lack of clouds vs. temporal accuracy metric and were automatically subbed in.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You have a very straightforward way to tell Google your opinion: stop using their products.
Welcome to the market. Enjoy your stay.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)