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Open Library Goes Online With Public Domain Books

Posted by Zonk on Fri Jul 20, 2007 02:34 PM
from the shakespeare-and-company dept.
mrcgran writes "A competitor to Google Book Search emerges as the Yahoo-backed Open Content Alliance launches an 'open library' of its own. After several years of scanning and archiving, the Internet Archive and the Open Content Alliance this week unveiled the Open Library, their attempt at bringing public domain books to the masses. The Internet Archive has hosted texts for quite some time, but the Open Library makes fully-searchable, high-quality scans of books available, along with downloadable PDFs. It offers an experience designed to match paper: there's even a page-flipping animation as readers move forward and backward through the book. Ben Vershbow of the Institute for the Future of the Book says that when it comes to presentation, 'they already have Google beat, even with recent upgrades to the [Google Book Search] system including a plain text viewing option.'" We have previously discussed this project, though this is a bit more complete rundown on the initiative.
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[+] Technology: Open Library Project Takes Flight 126 comments
Aaron Swartz today announced the launch of the new Open Library project. The goal of the project is to produce the world's greatest library on the Internet free for anyone to use. Starting with the Internet Archive's book scanning project and organizing the insertion of new content via a wiki-type model the project seems to be off to a great start. The demo, source code, and mailing lists were all opened up today in hopes of drawing interest from the public at large.
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  • by moderatorrater (1095745) on Friday July 20 2007, @02:37PM (#19931385)
    Have they solved the actual problems that plague online book sites? You know, lack of portability, bulkiness, ability to read on the toilet easily, and the ability to lend to friends at the drop of a hat? Are those solved yet?
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      My Nokia 770 solved all of those for me...
    • The summary mentions PDFs and TFA article talks about on demand printing using Lulu.com (couldn't tell if that would be at a price and too lazy to visit Lulu right now :-). Maybe not the most environmental solution but it helps a little that these are full text pages and not small little paragraphs surrounded by ads. Printing a page or three here and there for offline reading is probably a decent compromise between portability and being wasteful.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      Well, since they allow you to download PDFs of the books, I'd say they've probably solved these problems just about as well as could be done without first mailing a free eBook reader to every person on Earth.
    • Have they solved the actual problems that plague online book sites? You know, lack of portability, bulkiness, ability to read on the toilet easily, and the ability to lend to friends at the drop of a hat? Are those solved yet?
      Yes. If you buy a Nintendo DS ($130) and a Datel Games n' Music adapter ($35), you can read text files while sitting on the toilet. Support for books with pictures in them is still spotty, but at least it works for Gutenberg releases [moonbooks.net].
  • Nothing incoming (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Applekid (993327) on Friday July 20 2007, @02:37PM (#19931389)
    Yes, very nice and all, but, how will they get new works? It's not like anything is entering public domain anymore.

    Where I can donate my real books to a library and they'll happily accept them, I can't donate anything to Open Library unless I own the full copyrights.
    • Yes, very nice and all, but, how will they get new works? It's not like anything is entering public domain anymore.


      There is enough stuff written before this madness started to last a lifetime. After that there is only another 60 years to go ... *cries*
      • by corsec67 (627446) on Friday July 20 2007, @02:49PM (#19931551) Homepage Journal
        Until in 59 years, when Mickey is about to go out of copyright, it is extended again.

        Copyright is just like gmail storage: they just keep on expanding.
        • Yes, but at least I can read my GMail. The number of works that are copyrighted, kept private, and never enter the public domain is the problem.
      • There is enough stuff written before this madness started to last a lifetime

        *shatter*

        That's--that's not fair. That's not fair at all. There was time now. There was, was all the time I needed... ! It's not fair!
      • Then I'm going to wait until I'm about 90 to read Harry Potter. No sense paying for it when you can get it out of public domain. Nobody tell me how it ends,... ;-)
        • You kidding? They're still going to be flogging that franchise for all it's worth in 60 years.

          (Besides which, I think copyright got extended to 120 years now, not 60; it's 60 until Mickey Mouse comes out of copyright -- if something was published in your lifetime, the way the laws have been bastardized, you won't live to see it go into the public domain.)
    • This is so telling, a whole lot of free information, classic books, many of the best ever written, are made available completely free, in an easy form and comment #2 is bitching about not having access to recent text. You could also write to your favorite authors and ask them to donate their texts. Instead you demand that artists and authors provide you with free entertainment. Maybe you should spend a year of your life writing a book, and providing it to the world for free. Or do as Rick Prellinger (Mo
      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        My internet poetry is freely available on my geocities site!
      • As a writer and a comedian of varying degrees of success, I feel copyright is way too long. I think a Physics book written in 1970 should be free by now. Mickey Mouse should be in the hands of independent cartoonists so they can make derivative works.

        Why not?

        Even in the best case scenario where the artist owns his or her work, long copyright terms reduce the pressure for the artist to continue to create. In reality, companies hold most of the copyrights and profit off them with little or no compensation for
      • by Reziac (43301) * on Saturday July 21 2007, @12:27AM (#19935807) Homepage Journal
        The old stuff, the dime novels and pulps of a previous century, classics that have fallen out of academia's sights, antique reference books and manuals... THOSE are the things most in danger of being completely lost. And no wonder, when the current generation can't see any value in preserving them, let alone reading them. Do they likewise see no value in other artifacts of history??

        It's the old stuff I can't find ANYWHERE else that interests me about the Open Library project. Obscure? Maybe now, but not necessarily in its day. And regardless, that doesn't mean it should be thrown on the scrapheap of history. What is ignored today may well be tomorrow's classic.

        Oh, there's already Project Gutenburg? A commendable project, and all well and good for plain text. But what about stuff like the very first book I ever looked at from the Open Library .... it had dozens of lovely drawings that would naturally be lost without the full-page scans (and for all we know, may not be preserved anywhere else).

        The big advantage of such projects is that if enough people worldwide make copies for their personal archives, that's a hedge against the material being lost (via natural disaster, civil disorder, or whatever). We don't have to suffer another burning of the Library at Alexandria -- we have the means to spread preserved copies far and wide. Let's take advantage of that, not denigrate the archivists' efforts.

      • I've never understood why libraries are allowed to lend out copyrighted works to anyone without reprisal from the *IAA.
        Because brick-and-mortar libraries buy and lend existing copies, rather than reproducing them for each patron, their activities fall under the protection of 17 USC 109 [bitlaw.com] and foreign counterparts.
      • The RIAA or MPAA probably wouldn't care about books, since they're not recorded media. I guess if some public libraries loan out CDs, videocassettes, DVDs, or even books on tape, they might try to get involved.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          I guess if some public libraries loan out CDs, videocassettes, DVDs, or even books on tape, they might try to get involved.

          Most do loan those items out. But they pay for them first. And don't make a new duplicate for each patron.
          • But that is where some difference comes in and I have heard rumblings about the CDs and DVDs in libraries. When someone borrows the 400 page book, he is unlikely to make a copy for him self. But when someone borrows the CD or DVD, he very well may make a copy. I remember reading a year or two ago that the MPAA or RIAA was wanting to look into their options with public libraries. That is part of the impetus for copy protection.
      • Re:Nothing incoming (Score:4, Interesting)

        by realmolo (574068) on Friday July 20 2007, @05:09PM (#19933423)
        Oh, trust me, the various book publishing companies HATE libraries. They're constantly sending lobbyists to Washington in an effort to extract some kind of fees from libraries. So far, the various "library associations" have successfully fought them off. But it's a never ending battle.

      • Well... I'm sure that if libraries had never previously existed up to now, they would be considered illegal in the current climate of, "All ideas belong to someone (but that sure as hell isn't you!)"
        • Don't kid yourself - the RIAA/MPAA don't care if the original owner of the media is or isn't using the media at the time someone else is using it. They just want money by any means they can get it.
  • Hey... (Score:2, Interesting)

    The more, the merrier!

    I can't wait until all printed books have been scanned into public sites. I'm really into arcane mythology and religion and it is very hard to find original sources, and when you do you can't even check them out because they are so old!
  • Gutenberg Project (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Bananatree3 (872975) on Friday July 20 2007, @02:41PM (#19931459)
    Project Gutenberg [gutenberg.org] has been in the business of hosting public domain books and other literary works for many years, long before either Google or this new thing. Gutenberg is much more of an "Open Source" project in that it is more distributed to volunteers. I wonder if there has been any coordiation between Gutenberg and these "big boy" projects?
    • Gutenberg is the actual text of the book, this is the scan of the orginal print.
    • My first thought when I saw this.

      With my second being 'will they support downloading in .txt/.rtf formats like Gutenberg does?'
    • Project Gutenberg [gutenberg.org] has been in the business of hosting public domain books and other literary works for many years, long before either Google or this new thing.

      True, a Gutenberg release preserves the text. But don't too many existing Gutenberg releases change the typesetting and remove pictures? Even those that do have illustrations, such as #8789 "Hell" from Divine Comedy by Dante [gutenberg.org], need a new coat of CSS badly.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      Well, PG and DP (Distributed Proofreaders) have had various working relationships with Brewster Kahle of the Internet Archive for a LONG time. Nothing specifically about this open library (though they will/do have PG stuff in their library).

      The majority of their stuff is the scanned image sets, which dovetails nicely with DP and PG, in that it can be converted into a nicely proofed set of text by the folks over there (www.pgdp.net). Scans are pretty and useful in their way, but having the proofed text mak
    • Brewster Kahle (Mr Internet Archive/Alexa) was (and probably still is) a big supporter of project Gutenberg, this is an expansion.
  • by slashd'oh (234025) on Friday July 20 2007, @02:44PM (#19931493) Homepage
    They didn't mention the demo site [openlibrary.org] - check out the About the technology [openlibrary.org] page for a summary of ThingDB their new database framework - "a database that could hold tens of millions of records, that would allow random users to modify its entries and keep a full history of their changes, and that would hold arbitrary semi-structured data as users added it. Each of these problems had been solved on its own, but nobody had yet built a technology that solved all three together."
  • by zarkill (1100367) on Friday July 20 2007, @02:56PM (#19931663) Homepage
    I'm usually not a fan of on-line things trying to faithfully mimic their real-world counterparts. Interface designers do it because they're convinced that their users will be able to seamlessly transfer their real-world skills into using their on-line application, but most of the time the artificial restrictions that are imposed in order to stay faithful to the metaphor limit the actual usefulness of the application.

    That said, I kind of like this, page-turning animation and all.

    Maybe it's because it's intended to display scans of actual books, and so having them mimic the actual books they're based on makes sense. Plus the addition of search capability is something that a real book doesn't have, but it uses the tools available as an on-line application. I also like the subtle things, like the thickness of the pages on either side changing, so you can judge your position in the book, and the little tabs that help you find your search terms.

    It's making me re-think my stance on real-world metaphors in an on-line setting.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Quite impressive indeed.

      I think the problem is usually a combination of 2 things...bad metaphors implemented badly.

      A well chosen and suitable metaphor combined with quality execution usually seems to work well.

      In this case, the metaphor is sound: Present the user with a book to...read a book. Good metaphor. Next is the execution, which is very good. Click a page...page turns. Very intuitive. Page flipping animation makes it totally obvious what is happening, whether flipping back or forward. Stacked page th
  • Booo! (Score:3, Funny)

    by TodMinuit (1026042) <todminuit&gmail,com> on Friday July 20 2007, @02:58PM (#19931701)

    Only Internet Explorer 6+ and FireFox are currently supported. You should download Firefox or use Internet Explorer to properly use the Flipbook viewer.
    So us Opera users are left in the cold, without public domain books to read? Fine. *searches for porn*
  • Bah (Score:3, Insightful)

    by B3ryllium (571199) on Friday July 20 2007, @03:14PM (#19931883) Homepage
    Page-flipping animations are a complete waste of time. Gimmicky interfaces are rarely good interfaces.
  • From one of the articles

    With the backing of some of the groups opposed to the Google Library project, the Open Content Alliance should experience smooth sailing.

    In other words, the group trying to tie up Google in the courts is off doing something very similar on it's own. Typical outcomes for such efforts is to plod along offering competition to the product being litigated and in the process try to make the venture unprofitable for the target organization. Once case is settle out of court (or in) competi

    • Re:Translation... (Score:5, Informative)

      by MushMouth (5650) on Friday July 20 2007, @06:16PM (#19934019) Homepage
      The Open Library is a Brewster Kahle project. Brewster envision, built, and funded the Internet Archive. He has been scanning books for a decade (with Raj Reddy of CMU) this project predates Google's by several years. He approached Google when he started expanding the Text Archive beyond the Gutenberg collection (which the Internet Archive was hosting), but Google wanted to do their own thing, one that would be more profitable to them, so he got funding from other sources. He invented WAIS, which was one of the first internet searches (it indexed FTP, Gopher, and early HTTP sites). In 95 he donated a relatively huge and expensive hard drive to the project which saved the only copies of the earliest usenet postings which were on rapidly deteriorating tapes. He has repeatedly challenged the DMCA and Sonny Bono copyright extension in partnership with Lawrence Lessig. He is a member of the Board of Directors of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Unlike Google, there are no ads on any archive.org hosts other than the ones that were originally in the pages that are archived. As for what is wrong with Google's approach, they make gobs of money and never once offered any of it to the people who pay (either in money or time) to create the content. Brewster's goal is "Universal Access to all Knowledge", he doesn't need to say "do no evil", as he believes that goes without saying. He has done all of this while asking for nothing in return. So trust google if you want, I know Brewster and trust him.

      As for searching, the text of the books is indexed and searchable, if you want to do a general search inside the book, you can use google, who usurps the rights of the authors, or you could use Amazon who only surfaces the texts that the rights owners have allowed to be indexed.

      BTW A major coder for google while it was google.stanford.edu, was writing much of that code while working for Brewster at Alexa. There are rumors about the cleanliness of that code, but Brewster was never concerned about any of this, nor the fact that egroups, which started on another machine on the Alexa network, sold to Yahoo for $500 Million.
  • by MushMouth (5650) on Friday July 20 2007, @03:31PM (#19932155) Homepage
    Brewster (IA) and Raj Reddy (CMU) and others have been working on this for almost a decade now, the Internet Archive bookmobile has been printing/binding books on demand at schools across the world for more than 5 years. They actually approached google about joining them before google launched their own project. While Brewster has made attempts to overturn the Sonny Bono copyright extension law (a couple made it to the supreme court, but ultimately failed), he generally doesn't like to push the envelope when it comes to copyright infringement, so much so that he has been accused of being a patsy. Which is really sad, as he has spent a whole lot of his own money and hours making more data freely available than probably anyone in the history of man!
     
  • Having page turning animations is just silly. It makes about as much sense as raggedly tearing the edges of books or rolling up the pages to make them look more like scrolls. The point of putting books online is so people can read them not to foist irrelevant and distracting visuals from the physical world onto electronic books. If this was merely a waste of time I wouldn't mind so much but given the poor responsiveness of browser animations for many people this seems like a distraction to serious readin
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Did you try it? If so, fine.
      If not....pick one and go read a few pages. The page turning ani does not get in the way, nor is it hitting you over the head. Click/flip. Since this is a scan of the actual book, the animation pretty well represents the actual feel of the book. Or as close as you can get onscreen. I've tried reading books on the computer that were mere straight text copies, and this feels far better. (Not that I like reading novels tied to the computer)

      unless you have one very, very, very lon
  • The same way I don't want my parchment to reproduce the feel of letters chisled in stone or my book to reproduce the crinkled, rolled scrolls. Pick a way to present the material that plays to the strengths of the medium and avoids the weaknesses. Spend your time optimizing books for easy searching and display on laptop screens not reproducing an interface that works well for paper. It's not just pointless reproduction of the past it's actually a bad interface for reading on the computer.

    A book has the wonderful property that it is easy to flip back and forth between pages. It's easy to estimate where you are/were in a book by the thickness of the remaining pages in your hand. You can perform what amounts to a binary search for a specific page with minimum of fuss. None of these are yet true with books displayed on a computer. However, computers can search the entire book in an instant, combine complex boolean expressions and display snippets from each result. A good book interface should play to these strengths.

    Unfortunatly this interface doesn't manage to do this. While quite pretty the page animations make flipping through pages quickly even harder than normal on a computer. The search interface doesn't let you see all the results at once nor do I see any options for a more complex kind of search. However, I really like the tabs on the side of the book that give a sense of where in the book the results are located. That should just be combined with a flat list of results.

    Of course reasons of cost and time mean that it is easier to present books in their original form but in 10-15 years this is going to look as silly as the early cars that offered reins instead of steering wheels.
  • "We have previously discussed this project, though this is a bit more complete rundown on the initiative."

    Congratulations on the world's first publicly disclosed open source dupe!
  • I went there http://www.openlibrary.org/toc.html [openlibrary.org]. All I can see is maybe 20 book covers, most of them too small to read. There's no search tab or way to search the entire library (which AFAIK could be only 20 books anyway). The 'Table of Contents' tab is a list of sponsors, not books. There is a link to upload books, but that's it. This is how *not* to design a web site. If this is all they have, forget it. If this is a 20 book technology demonstrator, they're about to learn the 'Marimba' lesson: You only get one chance.

    You'll do far better with Project Guttenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page [gutenberg.org] has thousands of books, and (WOW!) the ability to search by author or title. If only OpenLibrary.org had thought of that...
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      I'm skeptical about the usefulness of that. There's nothing I hate more than having to wait for some animation before I can read more content.

      You could stop complaining and actually go try it, you know. It is free.
      The page flipping thing is pretty instantaneous. Backwards and forwards.

      Gutenberg is the raw text. This is actual scans of the pages, incl illustrations. Looks far more like a real book.
    • Yeah, I have seen this before and never understood why anyone would want this "feature".

      Does it include audio of rustling paper for every turn of the page?-) *shudder*

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      No DRM, just fancy-ass AJAX page-turning effects. You can still download a version of the book or grab individual pages with no problems (they're scanned pages).