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Provider of Free Public Domain Music Shuts Down
Posted by
Zonk
on Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:55 AM
from the why-do-people-hate-the-word-free-so-much dept.
from the why-do-people-hate-the-word-free-so-much dept.
Mark Rogers writes "The International Music Score Library Project has provided access to copies of many musical scores that are in the public domain. It has just been shut down due to a cease-and-desist letter sent to the site operator by a European Union music publisher (Universal Edition). A majority of the scores recently available at IMSLP were in the public domain worldwide. Other scores were not in the public domain in the United States or the EU (where copyright extends for 70 years after the composer's death), but were legal in Canada (where the site is hosted) and many other countries. The site's maintainers clearly labeled the copyright status of such scores and warned users to follow their respective country's copyright law. Apparently this wasn't enough for Universal Edition, who found it necessary to protect the interests of their (long-dead) composers and shut down a site that has proved useful to many students, professors, and other musicians worldwide."
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Submission: Provider of Free Public Domain Music Shuts Down by Anonymous Coward
[+]
Your Rights Online: Project Gutenberg Volunteers Partial IMSLP Hosting 100 comments
bbc writes "Project Gutenberg has volunteered to host all it legally can of the IMSLP's catalog. The Canadian provider of free public domain music recently caved to legal threats from an Austrian sheet music seller. On the Book People mailing list, Project Gutenberg's founder Michael Hart wrote: 'Project Gutenberg has volunteered to keep as much of the IMSL Project online as is legally possible, including a few of the items that were demanded to be withdrawn, as well as, when legal, to provide a backup of the entire site, for when the legalities have finally been worked out.'"
[+]
Your Rights Online: Provider of Free Public Domain Music Re-Opens 142 comments
Chip Zoller writes "This community took note when the International Music Score Library Project shut down last October, and when Project Gutenberg stepped in to help three days later. I would like to alert you all that our site, IMSLP, has re-opened to the public for good after a 10-month hiatus. All the news updates in the interim can be found linked to the main page. We take great pride in re-opening as it demonstrates our willpower to make the masterpieces of history free to the world; and moreover to make manifest that we will not be bullied by publishers sporting outrageous claims of copyright in a country where they clearly are expired."
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I feel better about this decision... (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Copyright duration really needs to be chopped down to 10 years, with a total maximum of 15 possible after a 5-year extension. NO copyright at all would be a hundred times better than the crap we have now.
Not again.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I never went to the site but depending on how it worked, the labels could have had a strong argument to take the owner to court in the U.S. They'd probably use the importing the works into the U.S., "targeting" consumers that in the U.S., etc. I'm sure Canada and the U.S. have agreements to enforce judgments over the borders.
Re:Not again.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I never went to the site but depending on how it worked, the labels could have had a strong argument to take the owner to court in the U.S. They'd probably use the importing the works into the U.S., "targeting" consumers that in the U.S., etc. I'm sure Canada and the U.S. have agreements to enforce judgments over the borders.
You might be able to find a lower court judge stupid enough to rule that was initially (there are a lot of judges, and by definition, that means there are at least some really bad ones), but I can't imagine that it wouldn't be overturned on appeal.
I think the really sad thing here is that the operators of the site don't have either the will or the resources to fight this to its conclusion. So therefore, as usual, the case is not being decided on anything approaching the merits, but simply by the might of deep pockets.
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Re:Not again.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Isn't that the whole point with "harmonizing" copyright laws between nations - to make copyright law everywhere to be the superset of all copyright laws anywhere ?
Take the longest copyright duration anywhere, combine it with the widest scope, nastiest punishments, least consumer rights, etc. and you have the global copyright law the harmonizers are pushing for.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes. And no. Copyright harmonization between countries is always done in such a way that you still have something to harmonize towards. A harmonization round, at least in the perverted minds of the likes of WIPO and the large publishers, should always overshoot a little.
To give you an example: recently (late 1990s?) the US harmonized its copyright
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
they are suing that the scores are copyrighted
for 70 years after the authors death in Europe and 50 in Canada,
that he is responsible for any infringement because he the admin, that because it's possible to implement a IP address filtering system to restrict access to persons based on their countries of origin, he responsible to do so in order to restrict access based on the country of origin's laws and that they are going to sue him in Europe and Canada will enforc
Re:Not again.... (Score:4, Informative)
In fact, it's happening a lot write now in Britain where people who don't like books that are written about them are suing the author in court in Britain for defamation, even though the book was never sold and never intended to be sold in Britain. The people bringing the suit simply go to Amazon and buy a few copies. Read about it here. [nytimes.com]
The reason I said "it depends on how the site works" is because the Supreme Court has already looked at the issue of personal jurisdiction and websites in the Pavlovich case, the guy who made the LiVid website that dealt with DeCSS and DVDs with Linux. There was no jurisdiction in that case but the court said if the website was more interactive and targeted people in California then there would have been. So, if this site had targeted Americans, then yes, they could have had PJ in the U.S.
With all that said, i think it's pretty shitty to do that to this guy.
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Re:Not again.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Not again.... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Not again.... (I'm so sick of this happening) (Score:4, Insightful)
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In whose name? (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess dead people don't put all that much emphasis on money loss due to copyright violation.
Re:In whose name? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a bit fuzzy about the difference you're trying to make between composers and artists. For me a composer is a bona fide artist. Must be a weakness in my English language skills.
As to the distinction I'm trying to make, well, it's pretty simple.
I write music. A String Quartet or an Orchestra will (hopefully) perform it. It may even get recorded. When it's released, it will be titled something along the lines of "unfunk's second symphony. Performed by the Suchandsuch Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Whatshisname"
Britney Spears, on the other hand, performs music (and I use the term loosely) written by somebody else. It's always Britney's song though, and not the-person-who-wrote-it's. That person got paid their songwriting fee, and that's that (I think).
The point I'm trying to make is that the Classical Music world is like the reverse of the pop music world, and that Pop Artists aren't really 'artists'...
Having said all that though, I'd be pretty pissed off with a corporation making decisions on my dead behalf.. especially as I've been giving my scores away to anybody that will play them for as long as I've been writing music.
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Re: Composers get their share (Score:5, Informative)
No, that person gets paid quite a bit for performance rights and music-publishing.
'Probably much more per track than Ms. Spears gets for doing the vocals since in addition to royalties on the album and online music sales the composer also gets paid for radio-play where Ms. Spears does not.
What makes Ms. Spears' arrangement more advantageous than the composers' are the payments from other sources such as advances against sales, concerts, merchandise, appearances and publicity, commercial advertisements -- and of course the free stuff that she gets just for showing up at awards ceremonies, bars and parties.
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Fixed .... (Score:4, Funny)
There, fixed it for you
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Re:In whose name? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, your kids (and grandkids) are lucky bastards, because I know of no other line of work where your kids are getting paid for something you did when you were alive, while the kids are doing nothing themselves to earn it (besides being your kids).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as they're concerned, it's no different from any other type of property. You may think it has deleterious effects on society, but that's a separate point (and some would argue that other forms of property are socially harmful, e.g. land ownership, ownership of companies etc).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In whose name? (Score:5, Insightful)
Too bad that, unless you're in the top
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Re:In whose name? (Score:5, Insightful)
I write and perform music too. I normally do so for free because of the joy it gives me, but I often get offered free beer and sometimes money to perform.
I'm also part of a team who are building a railway and port (for iron ore). The port will be providing a service to the West Australian community and generating income for decades at least, and probably hundreds of years. It'd be nice if someone offered me part of the profits of the facilty for the next 70 years.
I don't expect it though, any more than I expect people to give me money for my music.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which has been dead longer? (Score:3, Insightful)
Doing it wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Modern global society is doing it wrong. The current regime of patents and copyrights is completely outdated and old-fashioned. Global digital communication has made copyright irrelevant, and it's absurd to think you can patent an idea.
I can only hope we'll look back on these early decades of the 21th century and laugh at how silly our laws were.
I'm going outside now to watch the Orionids. Good thing you can't copyright an experience.
Re:Doing it wrong (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
One Argument for Patents (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, is the patent system as presently constituted anywhere close to an ideal solution to this problem? Not on your life. Th
Re:One Argument for Patents (Score:5, Insightful)
Clearly the real "schematics" of software are source code. If English could capture software's function as well, we'd all be out of a job. So to adequately do their job, software patents would need to include full source code and accompanying documentation. But since source code is indisputably covered under copyright law, the patent system would thus become more of a source code escrow system, mandatory for copyright protection. The real question is whether the trade secret nature of proprietary source code is a big enough problem to warrant the incredible added overhead of such a system. I don't think it is.
In short, copyright serves the industry well enough, with minimal overhead. Patents cause more problems than they fix, and their overhead excludes basement coders, the modern equivalent of garage inventors. The best way to fix the patent system is to push it back into physical realms where it can do some good. The tech industry can do just fine without them, thanks.
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Re:Doing it wrong (Score:4, Funny)
Dear Quokkapox,
Your experience of the Orionids is clearly derived in part from one of the movies either produced, being produced, or considered for being produced in light of this experience, and is thus infringing on our copyrights somehow. We insist that you cease and desist in your observations immediately and buy a stackload of crappy and expensive movies instead.
Yours insincerely,
The MPAA Division of Inquisitors, a CIA Interrogator Production
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Why take the site down? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't understand why the site is being taken down. The publisher's demands would be satisfied by removing the scores still under copyright in the EU. As I understand it, the copyright status of these scores is noted, so presumably it wouldn't be a difficult job to identify and remove those just those scores. And since, according to the article, most of the scores on the site are out of copyright everywhere, removing those still under copyright in the EU, while regrettable, would not destroy the utility of the site. The cease-and-desist letter is annoying, but I don't see that it should require taking down the site.
Re:Why take the site down? (Score:5, Informative)
http://imslpforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=3082#3082 [imslpforums.org]
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Re:Why take the site down? Model wrong for size. (Score:3, Insightful)
As has been noted, maintenance of the site became overwhelming and the second C&D was only the straw that broke an already overloaded camel back.
I see no reason for the site to not come back, but under a different maintenance model along with user agreements/registrations to access
works not worldwide public domain, effectively making reasonable effort to provide restrictions where needed.
Public
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Reasons:
1. If they don't act immediately, it could be argued later in court they acted in bad faith delaying taking down the offending materials. The site will be off temporarily until all offending ma
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You think? Hmm, what would be the point... "Come to our site. It's down". "Now you know about our site... which you can't visit".
Dunno.
Re:Why take the site down? (Score:5, Informative)
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Seems like he caved to an empty threat (Score:4, Informative)
No good deed goes unpunished (Score:5, Informative)
Allow me to quote someone named Carolus [imslpforums.org] on the IMSLP site's forums:
This was just one person providing a public service... uh, sorry, competing unfairly with the copyright cartel.
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The site took too much work to maintain (Score:5, Insightful)
I never heard of the site or the operator before this story, but a quick read of his forum makes it pretty clear the guy was already worn out from the workload of maintaining the site. He would have walked away sooner or later. The cease and desist letter merely hastened the inevitable.
Fan sites and other labors of love nearly always evolve into large and larger doses of labor with decreasing amounts of joy and love. The sites days were numbered long ago.
-DaveU
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Prior Art (Score:3, Interesting)
They are suing for 12 sequence notes these days- I think it is likely that many 12 sequence notes are already public domain. All it needs is some computer crunching between still copyrighted songs and public domain songs to compare them.
The power of choice... (Score:3, Insightful)
I fully intend to avoid shelling a single dime to any of these asshats for as long as I shall live. They're obviously not playing fair, so why should I?
Time to change copyright ... (Score:3, Interesting)
"where copyright extends for 70 years after the composer's death"
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Somehow, though, we've never viewed Copyright in this same light
Copyright originated from this manner of thinking. May I suggest you read this paper [ssrn.com] about the origins of copyright, particularly in the US. I enjoyed it a lot. I would also fight very hard against life+18. For some works, 15 years is far too long. A modest quantity of very short terms (e.g. 1-2 year t
request seems reasonable (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason he shut down was because he considered that too much work. I'm sorry, but downloading a geolocation database and using it to filter requests is not a lot of work. In fact, from his remarks, it sounds like running the server was just becoming too much work in general and this was simply the final straw.
It think it's stupid that they the publishers still hold the copyright, but that's an issue to be taken up with the legislatures. The fact that they have these rights in Europe is clear, and it's reasonable for them to try to enforce them.
Not again ... (Score:3, Informative)
Life plus 70 is much too long (Score:3, Insightful)
Under copyright, these works belong to the public, that is, all of us. To lock them away for multiple lifetimes is, simply put, stealing
from the public. It is a corruption of the original intent, brought about by a few people beholden to industry negotiating international treaties
largely in secret. Unless the rot at the center of the current copyright system is fixed, eventually the public will turn away from copyright, which will be a shame.
Expert Opinion (Score:4, Informative)
As for a European infringement, if UE is correct, then the public domain becomes an offline concept, since posting works online would immediately result in the longest single copyright term applying on a global basis. That can't possibly be right. Canada has chosen a copyright term that complies with its international obligations and attempts to import longer terms - as is the case here - should not only be rejected but treated as copyright misuse.
U.S. & E.U. should go back to old Copyright sy (Score:3, Informative)
The original Copyrights were like patents: 17 years. That was to give incentive to the creators of original works, who could sell them for a limited time, before the work became public domain. But copyrights were put there to encourage creators to create works for the public good, because it eventually did pass to the public. The problem was, if the public just took original works, then there was no incentive for the creative types to create. Thus Copyright law.
And the concepts of Fair Use allowed the public and schools to use even copyrighted materials in certain circumstances, again for the public good.
It was never intended, originally, that all rights to works should be held, essentially forever, by private parties. That is a complete bastardization of the whole concept.
It was designed to be only temporary, just like patents. Then greedy people got it extended to the life of the creator. And then more. And now, life plus 70 years! Which in many cases is more than the lifetime of a member of the general public. And the DMCA has been used to even stifle university research if that research would endanger someone's copyright! What a crock!
How can that possibly be in the public interest???
If we went back to the old system, 17 years or even compromise and say 30 or 35... a whole lot of these "problems" surrounding copyrights would just GO AWAY!!!
Re:morally right, legally wrong (Score:5, Funny)
True. There must be a better way of changing the law than poisoning politicians.
Parent
Re:A few duties. (Score:4, Insightful)
You didn't RTFA, did you? They (or rather, he, as it was only one person (a student), running a non-commercial site out of his own pocket) were only providing music that was out of copyright... in Canada.
The problem here, and the thing that makes it outrageous, is that publisher (Universal Edition) threatened to obtain a "judgement" against the guy in Europe - which then (according to UE's version of Canadian law, which may or may not be entirely accurate) would be enforceable against the guy in Canada. I don't know about you, but I find that kinda fucked up.
The other part, however, is more simple (and more familiar) - a large organisation with effectively infinite resources launches a "legal" assault on a single person with none. The guy had absolutely no time, funds, or any other resources to fight this. The publisher could probably have threatened to sue him in Canada, where they'd (presumably) have absolutely no case at all, and he'd still pretty much have to give up.
So well done, Universal Edition - you fucknuts. Why don't you go find a few newborn puppies you can kick, if you really want to feel like big tough men.
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