Fluendo To Sell Proprietary Codecs For Linux

Several readers wrote in to tell us that the open source media software development company Fluendo has announced plans to sell native Linux implementations of proprietary video codecs such as Windows Media, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4. (Press release here.) From the article: "Currently, many Linux video applications facilitate Windows Media video playback using Windows DLL files and Wine, which provides suboptimal performance, particularly with streaming video. Fluendo's codecs could potentially provide better integration for streaming Windows Media playback in Linux web browsers as well as through GStreamer-based desktop applications like Totem."

Hmmmmmmmmn,

[Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289)]

1) I don't believe (for xine at least) that wine is neccessary for asf (wmv) playback (the windows codec dlls are required, but used by xine without wine's help)

2) I guess a native binary blob is slightly better than a MS coded binary blob.... but frankly, it's still just a binary blob. You have no idea what its really doing.

Good luck to Fluendo however.

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[John Betonschaar (178617)]

2) I guess a native binary blob is slightly better than a MS coded binary blob.... but frankly, it's still just a binary blob. You have no idea what its really doing.

I guess the vast majority of end-user couldn't care less what their video codec is doing, as long as it plays their damn video's. It's a bit like the NVidea Linux drivers: the free software purists see it as something awful to load a binary driver on Linux, but I for one am very grateful to have proper 3D accelerated drivers at all. Same goes for video playback... There will always be proprietary video codecs, just get over it. I don't see the problem anyway, if I'm want to run commercial software on Linux it is usually binary as well. Does that mean the software is useless or bad?

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289)]

It's a bit like the NVidea Linux drivers: the free software purists see it as something awful to load a binary driver on Linux,

Perhaps because of security fears? [rapid7.com]

"the NVIDIA Binary Graphics Driver for Linux is vulnerable to a buffer overflow that allows an attacker to run arbitrary code as root. This bug can be exploited both locally or remotely

Anyway, bringing nvidia into the discussion is a red herring, there is a huge difference between running a binary blob in ring 0 and userland. Let's discuss userland binary rather than kernel mode binary.

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[x2A (858210)]

I got hit by the file corruption bug in that's existed in recent 2.6 kernels due to race condition. Was burried pretty deep, took the experts a while to figure out what was going on. I had the source code, so did thousands of other people. The bug still caused lost files. The nvidia driver's a pretty complex piece of code, having to handle many slight differences and implement workarounds for many different cards and chipsets. Nvidia have paid people on the job, with the relevant experience. What makes people think that the oss community can do a better job than nvidia's own people, when they can't even keep their own codebases bugfree? Bugs happen, and with really complex code, it takes people with the most experience available to find and resolve the problem, properly.

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[Just Some Guy (3352)]

So hundreds of developers (and being kernel hackers, probably paid) took a long time to find a file corruption bug that would presumably affect a lot of people. And somehow you think that NVidia's little graphics driver team should be able to magically resolve your problems overnight?

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[x2A (858210)]

Noooo, missed my point - there may be those hundreds of developers that work on the kernel, but it took the very select few, that had the proper experience and knowledge of the code and design, to track it down and fix it. The team of kernel developers could have been 5000, or it could have been 5. Sometimes, it's not the hands and the eyes, it's the right hands and the right eyes. Experience is very important in a complex codebase.

Re:

[x2A (858210)]

"I think you over estimate the number of people involved in the Linux / BSD nvidia driver"

No I wasn't trying to make any assertions as to number of people involved, I was just using the numbers 5000 and 5 in regards to the kernel to demonstrate the idea that having loads of manpower involved in something doesn't mean that they can all solve these various problems, there may only be 1 in 1000 that have the experience and knowledge of internal design etc required to fix it. The linux kernel is huge, and bugs

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[x2A (858210)]

OMG!!! They could have been the one's who put it there deliberately in the first place!!! We all know that nvidia works with the government... they've probably put backdoors in the chipsets too! Damn I gonna rip out my nvidia graphics cards and not put them in until I have personally verified each line of code, and every single transister on the chip schematics, and every single transistor and wire and line of code that controls the machines that make them... THEN I'll know I'm safe. It's a good job I have as much experience with GPU design as nvidia and ati, as that means I'll definitely find whatever's there.

Re:

[Dr. Manhattan (29720)]

There are many cases where oss does seem to be providing us with better software, many many cases, no argument there. But when you start getting more specialised, what matters is experience with the specialised target, not brute force manpower.

You'd think that, wouldn't you? Designing and implementing the software - you're right, in general. But in terms of finding bugs, frequently an outsider does better. It's practically a cliche in programmer circles that the bug you've been fruitlessly hunting for two

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[doob (103898)]

Perhaps because of security fears?

"the NVIDIA Binary Graphics Driver for Linux is vulnerable to a buffer overflow that allows an attacker to run arbitrary code as root. This bug can be exploited both locally or remotely

You say that as if it were a current problem. This has actually been fixed in the last 3(4?) driver revisions, including a bugfix only release to a previous branch of the drivers.

Re:

[piranha(jpl) (229201)]

NVidia sat on their hands for years with that security problem, didn't they?

Re:

[Ded Bob (67043)]

Does this patch [nvnews.net] in the FreeBSD nVidia forum fix it for you? It helped me on a 6-STABLE system with the 9631 driver even if the patch said it was for 7-CURRENT and the 9746 driver. I recommend it.

Re:

[pipatron (966506)]

Because it's better for the public good if the drivers are open.

Fluendo = "Streaming Penguin"?

[Kadin2048 (468275)]

I guess a native binary blob is slightly better than a MS coded binary blob

It's significantly better, actually. Not because it's technically superior (although it may be), but because it can legally be rolled into a commercial version of Linux. Right now, you can't legally distribute a Linux distro with multimedia support (at least not in the U.S.), because they depend either on MS DLLs (obvious copyright problems) or patent-encumbered free implementations (which can't be distributed with the distro for legal reasons).

This makes Linux into a second-rate desktop OS, even if you're willing to pay for it, because it means key features don't work out of the box. There have been exceptions to this from time to time (Xandros, Lindows), but they weren't well accepted by the community, possibly because they tried to leverage their use of proprietary codecs as an advantage over other Linux distros, rather than against Windows -- not a good way to make friends.

A company which wasn't involved in the actual production of a distro, might be in a good position (assuming it dealt with everyone on the same terms) to produce codecs that could be incorporated into (a non-free, pay-per-copy) version of any distro. E.g., someone could take Ubuntu, add the codecs (paying Fluendo, obviously), and sell the result as a package, suitable for pre-installation. I don't think this would violate GPL either, if the codecs were built in a way that didn't require linking or otherwise producing a "derived work."

In short, Fluendo could be in a position to be ESR's "Streaming Penguin." [catb.org] In that paper, he discusses some of the major problems facing Linux as a marketable desktop OS, and the lack of modern multimedia capabilities are a real deal-breaker. In fact, the lack of multimedia capabilities are more of a weakness, than simply being free-as-in-beer is a strength; people are obviously willing to pay for an OS that works, but one that doesn't work out of the box (or works only after fiddling around with some shady instructions involving PLF mirrors) won't fly, even if it's free.

While people here on Slashdot may not regard having to manually install LAME, Xvid, Flash, and the Win32 codecs as a significant problem, it's one of the many reasons why you can't go out and buy a Dell pre-configured with Linux as a home computer. Even if there wasn't Microsoft trying to torpedo it before it gets going, I'm not sure customers would accept anything that didn't work right, right out of the box. Fluendo could, if they play their cards right, be a big benefit to the adoption of Linux.

Re:Hmmmmmmmmn,

[MartinG (52587)]

2) I guess a native binary blob is slightly better than a MS coded binary blob.... but frankly, it's still just a binary blob. You have no idea what its really doing.

A few things:

a) It is infinitely better than a windows dll because it works (my machine is x86_64. windows blobs won't work there)
b) I don't have windows. How can I get windows binary blobs without buying windows or breaking the law?
c) True, I don't know what it's really doing, but it comes down to trust. I have personally met spoken to some of the fluendo/gstreamer folks and I trust them a hell of a lot more than some unknown devs at MS who I'll never even know the names of let alone meet and talk to.

Re:

[Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289)]

Saying "wine" is an overstatement. Some code from Wine is used,

That makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

Re:

[h2g2bob (948006)]

FFMpeg does MPEG1/2, MPEG4 (aac, divx, etc), WMV1/2/3, H.263 (flv6), VP6 (flv8), and frankly god knows what else.

Who in there right mind would think that releasing proprietory codecs for exactly the same to linux to do the same thing is in any way a good business plan!? If it was encoding these video formats, there may be some merit (eg: better encoding techniques), but playback!? The only possible advantage is it can be used in non-GPL'd programs.

Re:

[k8to (9046)]

Agreed, ffmpeg has the ability to decode these same formats, and on alternate arches to boot. The difference is that the use of ffmpeg may not be legal in your jurisdiction due to the lack of patent licenses. This is most likely to matter to, say, broadcasters.

Personally, I'm not very excited about paying money for essentially patent licenses. I supposed I'm resigned to being a patent license transgressor rather than monetarily supporting the patent holders. (Of course I also have the option of eschewin

*makes popcorn and pops open a beer*

[by Anonymous Coward]

and settles back for a nice round of productive but gentlemanly discussion over the need for massive deployment of closed source modules in Linux.

Re:

[RotateLeftByte (797477)]

At 07:48 In the morning? Can I have some of what you are smoking!

Oh, well, back to bed. :-)

Correction:

[geminidomino (614729)]

"Fluendo to TRY to sell proprietary codecs for Linux."

Look at all the flak NVidia's binary-only drivers take from the GNU-types, and those are FREE.

Don't troll.

[by Anonymous Coward]

NVidia's lamented product is a binary only driver with a binary only kernel component. A codec is application software. The nvidia software runs on the bare metal, interacting with your machine in god knows what ways. The codecs are fairly self-contained. It's not really compariable.

Correction: Leaked codecs.

[by Anonymous Coward]

""Fluendo to TRY to sell proprietary codecs for Linux.""

The "your codecs want to be free" crowd will take care of that problem.

Re:Correction:

[x2A (858210)]

I can choose between open and close source drivers for nvidia... feels pretty free to me.

I can write software and choose to release it open or closed source... that feels pretty free to me.

Erm... nvidia can too.

"Freedom to disagree" anyone? Oh no... it's YOUR way only, that's freedom!

Re:

[x2A (858210)]

It's a good job there's never been any security flaws in any open source software, otherwise that'd make your argument look really stupid!

but?

[tomstdenis (446163)]

Aren't there native OSS libs for mpeg4 playback already? Might need a binary for wmv but not for mpeg4.

Tom

Yes, they're part of ffmpeg

[by Anonymous Coward]

The three major video players for linux: mplayer, xine and vlc all use the ffmpeg library by default for playing mpeg4 video. Recently, ffmpeg added support for Windows Media 9 (WMV3) as a native codec, so you don't even need the windows binaries for that anymore (although it's probably in "alpha" status).

Re:Yes, they're part of ffmpeg

[Pecisk (688001)]

But ffmpeg can't be distributed legally in all countries. These codecs are for sale for those people who want be legit - usually companies - common crowd will still stick with gstreamer apps/plugins or mplayer/vlc/ffmpeg combo. I see this Fluendo step as very contributing to choice I can make on Linux system - I can say boss that these codecs can be easily installed in public terminal which aim to provide video serices for example. Just buy a license and vola, you are set.

And kudos to ffmpeg team. I use Totem with gstreamer bad/ugly/ffmpeg combo and I can say - hats off to you guys. Quality is very good.

Re:Yes, they're part of ffmpeg

[Shawn is an Asshole (845769)]

The FFMPEG devs have always done an excellent job at bringing Free video support to Linux. Thanks to them most video can be played on Linux without propreitary codecs. There is a downside, though: patents. FFMPEG isn't licensed, so it's not legal for distributions to distribute FFMPEG in countries dumb enough to allow software patents (USA, Japan, others?).

The Fluendo stuff could be a good thing if distros would ship with it. Then video would finally work "out of the box". For those like myself who avoid binary blobs and try to only use things that are truely Free will still have the option of using FFMPEG.

Re:Yes, they're part of ffmpeg

[AaronW (33736)]

And ffmpeg is not perfect. When it comes to WMV files it still has problems. It cannot decode J-frames and some forms of WMA are not supported.

It also tends to be a bit buggy, with various bugs popping in and out depending on exactly when you check out the code. It also does not have regular released versions like other software.

I just recently had to convert several hundred gigabytes of various videos people have uploaded with varying degrees of success. WMV caused problems, and I cannot get 3gp audio files to decode (possibly due to the fact that I'm running 64-bit.

It also is flakey when dealing with AC-3.

-Aaron

Good luck with that

[Cheesey (70139)]

I suppose the market is Linux distributors who can't bundle MPlayer for legal reasons. Can't see anyone buying this directly, though.

They'd probably be legally unable to be as good as MPlayer, (a universal video player, home page [mplayerhq.hu], debs [debian-multimedia.org]), as licensing some codecs will require signing up to agreements to play nicely with DRM. MPlayer is good because there's none of that nonsense: it just works, for every video that I've tried.

Re:

[Dr. Manhattan (29720)]

They'd probably be legally unable to be as good as MPlayer

That doesn't matter - that's not what this is intended for. It just has to be not much worse than the common alternatives on Windows. Linux has plenty of other advantages that make it a good choice - maintenance alone is far easier for Linux than Windows, for example.

I have much more time to visit with my parents when I'm over now that I've got them switched to Linux. I don't have to keep Windows running anymore. But I couldn't have done it (ther

Re:

[Pecisk (688001)]

I don't need player who "just works". I need nice grapgical interface (and no, no mplayer, no gxine/xine, no vlc can provide that, they are totally geekish apps. I am geek, but for videos, I need something more "normal"), I need nice integration with my enviroment, etc. etc.

Totem/Rhythmbox provides me that. Yeah, I know, anyone who would say that mplayer isn't for him must be stupid or luser, it is stock answer to my requirements. But it won't change a bit what I said.

Mplayer is legal nightmare and isn't ev

Re:Good luck with that

[Pecisk (688001)]

Why does everyone says "in some countries"? Germany, US, Canada, Australia is "some country" now? :)

Honestly, FFMPEG is illegal in MAJORITY of IT world. Why it is so hard to say that? It is patent minefield.

Re:

[ajs318 (655362)]

Actually, in at least the EU and the UK, and probably the British Commonwealth, software patents are not legally enforcible.

Nor will they ever be. If the law is changed to allow software patents, then it will be recognised that they were never valid before; so any software patent previously but falsely granted in the EU or UK will be recognised as bogus. The holders will have to re-apply for them, but will be blocked by reason of Prior Art and/or obviety (since there will be code out there to do the sa

Sounds great. If...

[jitterysquid (913188)]

Rah rah. I like people trying to sell commercial things on Linux. This will only work if they are johnny-on-the-spot when it comes to updates. I would hate my purchased codecs to keep me from updating gstreamer, the kernel, or whatever. In fact, I should not even have to *think* about my purchased codecs when I run a yum, apt-get, or up2date.

I'll just wait here for the Free Software fire-breathing demons of zealotry. It's quite cold right now and my furnace needs a break.

How would you sell that?

[Kadin2048 (468275)]

If you have read Christian (Fluendo most visible VP) blog post, they plan to provide upgrades via distribution upgrade/installation system (apt-get, yum, etc.)

How would this work? Does APT or YUM work via authenticated HTTP connections? They'd obviously need some way to keep just anyone from sticking "apt http://fluendo.com/updates [fluendo.com] nonfree" into their sources.list and grabbing their software -- and I don't think their business model is going to fly if they attempt to do shareware.

Maybe they could sell peopl

I have a better idea

[by Anonymous Coward]

Stop encoding media using proprietary codecs!

Re:

[dave420 (699308)]

But for 90% of the market, whether a codec is proprietary or not is of little consequence. Closed and open work just as well on Windows, and until that changes, that's the way it's going to be. Linux users don't have enough clout to change that, unfortunately.

Re:

[ardor (673957)]

There is no viable alternative. Theora is just too obscure to be useful. There are DirectShow codecs for Theora, but they don't work well, jump over frames, almost always mess up the A/V sync and so on. ffdshow theora is not enough, you need Ogg support too (since Ogg is the container, and theora is the video bitstream). Also, this involves installing codecs in 90% of all cases, since nobody has theora, as previously stated.

So. Alternatives? Dirac? Snow? Powerful and very advanced, but a) beta b) even less

Nice try, but...

[sid77 (984944)]

I think someone should point them to the ffmpeg changelog [mplayerhq.hu]. Actually it does open lots of proprietary formats and VLC uses the same codebase for his own engine.

FFMPEG

[BigBuckHunter (722855)]

I haven't scrolled to the bottom yet to see if this is redundant, but FFMPEG has recently added WMV9 and VC1 decoders. http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/ [mplayerhq.hu] It works fine for all of the Legacy content that I have. They also have MPEG/2/4 and a whole bunch of others. The only codec that I seem to be missing is Indeo 5

BBH

why we are releasing these codecs

[Ur@eus (148802)]

I see a lot of people confused about why we are releasing these codecs when there are things like the open source ffmpeg codecs etc.
Our goal is not to provide the community with codecs which there is absolutly no support for already as
that would be foolish. Our goal is to provide a 100% legal option which I know a lot of companies who have or
want to deploy linux desktops have been looking for. These companies like open source, but they also have policies in place
which hinders them from deploying solutions which have clear patent issues hanging over them in their country of operations. This is unfortunatly
the case with most multimedia codecs and even though we have spent a lot on resources on Xiph codecs here at Fluendo and are now working with BBC
on Dirac there is still some way to go before the need for non-free codecs are gone.

So for those in a situation where they can freely use gst-ffmpeg and similar options, more power to you! For those who the lack of licensed codecs
has been a hinderance or problem for adopting Linux (or Solaris) desktops at your company or institution or even private use, then we hope our plugins will be a good solution.

Christian Schaller
Fluendo

I think you're on the right track...

[StressGuy (472374)]

Speaking for myself, I've been using Linux for a while now and, these days, it is the primary OS I use on my home desktop computer. Windows is still there, but for legacy programs that I still need and I switch off the internet whenever I start Windows (it's WinME).

If you can give me a Linux distribution that is supported and comes bundled with legal implementations of all the codecs at a reasonable price point, I'll buy it. Throw in something like Cedega for games or Crossover Office for other apps (if I even need it at this point) so I can get rid of my Windows installation entirely and that would be an ideal solution for me.

Proprietary, non-free applications are going to be essential to getting Linux into the mainstream. Software sellers aren't interested in an OS they can't sell software to run on.

Thank you!

[XanC (644172)]

I deal with libraries in my line of work, and I think Linux and libraries are very compatible ideas. Librarians are also sensitive about respecting copyright, and I think codecs are possibly the biggest item slowing down adoption of Linux by librarians. Bravo!

Re:

[schwaang (667808)]

I tried to understand the Conditions of Use [fluendo.com] but I have questions that should be in a FAQ on your site:

1) The license seems to say "per computer". Does that mean it's OK to install the same software in two versions of Linux on the same (dual-boot) computer?

2) Is there a process for me to legally move the software to a different computer (deleting it on the old one, of course).

3) Does the software "phone home" in any way?

4) The Indemnity clause demands that the buyer (licensee) indemnify you against anything

Redundant

[spoonboy42 (146048)]

MPEG2 and MPEG4 have LONG been supported by ffmpeg, mplayer, xine, and vlc. As for Windows media, libavcodec in mplayer has supported decoding Windows Media 7 and 8 natively for some time now, and just recently support was added for WMV9 (aka VC-1, the latest Windows Media codec used on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) using, again, a fully open-source decoder.

Good for non-i386 Linux

[ChrisA90278 (905188)]

This is very good news for people with non-i386 Linux systems. For example Linux on SPARC, Alpha, ARM or PPC. Windows DLLs only run on i386.

I wonder if these Codecs could also be made to run under Solaris or BSD or other open source OSes?

Even for the people who use i386, this means there would be a legal codec so the big distos could include it with video players out of the box

Re:

[kosmosik (654958)]

> They are covered by patents are therefore is a subject of USAGE restrictions.

What patents you are talking about? I bet you don't have any idea.

> And no, vlc and xine is no use for simple user.

Even if so... type:

% yum install totem-xine

It is Totem with xine backend. If you find it hard to use I really find you retarded.

List of patents

[tepples (727027)]

They are covered by patents are therefore is a subject of USAGE restrictions.

What patents you are talking about?

It's not hard for anybody experienced with Google to find a list of MP3 patents [mp3licensing.com], the ASF patent [wikipedia.org], a list of MPEG-2 patents (PDF) [mpegla.com], and a list of MPEG-4 patents (PDF) [mpegla.com].

And no, vlc and xine is no use for simple user.

Even if so... type:

% yum install totem-xine

You forgot the step of obtaining a patent license.