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RIAA Going After a 10-Year-Old Girl

Posted by kdawson on Sun Mar 25, 2007 04:58 AM
from the winning-friends dept.
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The latest target of the RIAA's ire is a 10-year-old girl in Oregon, who was 7 when the alleged infringement occurred, and whose disabled mother lives on Social Security. In Atlantic v. Andersen, an Oregon case that was widely reported in 2005 when the defendant counterclaimed against the RIAA under Oregon's RICO statute and other laws, the defendant's mother sought to limit the RIAA's deposition of the child to telephone or video-conference. The RIAA has refused, insisting on being able to grill the little girl in person. Here are court documents (PDF)."
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Entertainment: RIAA Can't Have Defendant's Son's Desktop 283 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA's attempt to get Ms. Lindor's son's desktop computer in UMG v. Lindor has been rejected by the Magistrate Judge. The judge said that the RIAA 'offered little more than speculation to support their request for an inspection of Mr. Raymond's desktop computer, based on ... his family relationship to the defendant, the proximity of his house to the defendant's house, and his determined defense of his mother in this case. That is not enough. On the record before me, plaintiffs have provided scant basis to authorize an inspection of Mr. Raymond's desktop computer.' Decision by Magistrate Judge Robert M. Levy. (pdf)"
[+] Andersen Vs. RIAA Counterclaims Challenged 149 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA is now challenging the counterclaims (PDF) in Atlantic v. Andersen, for Electronic Trespass, violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, Invasion of Privacy, Fraud, Negligent Misrepresentation, the tort of Outrage, Deceptive Business Practices under Oregon Trade Practices Act, and Oregon RICO, first discussed here in October 2005. The RIAA has moved to dismiss the counterclaims (PDF) brought by a disabled single mother in Oregon who lives on Social Security Disability and has never engaged in file sharing, this after unsuccessfully trying to force the face-to-face deposition of Ms. Andersen's 10-year-old daughter. Ms. Andersen's lawyer has filed opposition papers (PDF)."
[+] RIAA Drops Tanya Andersen Case 164 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "After 2 years, the RIAA has finally dropped its longstanding case against disabled single mother Tanya Andersen in Oregon, Atlantic v. Andersen. The dismissal (pdf) relates merely to the RIAA's claims against Ms. Andersen, and does not relate to her (a) claim for attorneys fees or (b) counterclaims against the RIAA, which are presently before the Court on a motion to dismiss. The counterclaims were first interposed in December 2005. This is the same case in which the RIAA insisted on taking a face to face deposition of a 10 year old girl. Prior to the case, neither the mother nor the child had ever even heard of file sharing."
[+] Class Action Initiated Against RIAA 315 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Ever since the RIAA's litigation campaign began in 2003, many people have been suggesting a class action against the RIAA. Tanya Andersen, in Oregon, has taken them up on it. The RIAA's case against this disabled single mother, Atlantic v. Andersen, has received attention in the past, for her counterclaims against the RIAA including claims under Oregon's RICO statute, the RIAA's hounding of her young daughter for a face-to-face deposition, the RIAA's eventual dropping of the case 'with prejudice,' and her lawsuit against the RIAA for malicious prosecution, captioned Andersen v. Atlantic. Now she's turned that lawsuit into a class action. The amended complaint seeking class action status (PDF) sues for negligence, fraud, negligent misrepresentation, federal and state RICO, abuse of process, malicious prosecution, intentional infliction of emotional distress, violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, trespass, invasion of privacy, libel and slander, deceptive business practices, misuse of copyright law, and civil conspiracy."
[+] New Attorneys Fee Decision Against RIAA 144 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The RIAA has gotten slammed again, this time in Oregon, as the Magistrate Judge in Atlantic v. Andersen has ruled that Tanya Andersen's motion for attorneys fees should be granted. The Magistrate, in his 15-page decision, noted that, despite extensive pretrial discovery proceedings, 'when plaintiffs dismissed their claims in June 2007, they apparently had no more material evidence to support their claims than they did when they first contacted defendant in February 2005.....' and concluded that 'Copyright holders generally, and these plaintiffs specifically, should be deterred from prosecuting infringement claims as plaintiffs did in this case.' This is the same case in which (a) the RIAA insisted on interrogating Ms. Andersen's 10-year-old girl at a face-to-face deposition, (b) the defendant filed RICO counterclaims against the record companies, and (c) the defendant recently converted her RICO case into a class action"
[+] Lawsuit Against RIAA Tries To Stop Them All 154 comments
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Tanya Anderson has filed an amended complaint against the RIAA. One of the more interesting provisions in it is in the 18th claim, which seeks to stop the RIAA from 'continuing to engage in criminal investigation of private American citizens', no doubt referring to the unlicensed MediaSentry investigations. If granted, that could shut down the RIAA lawsuits entirely. Naturally, the RIAA doesn't like this at all. First, they got the judge to agree that the original complaint was too light on the details, so it was amended. Now the RIAA complains that it's too long, because it's 108 pages filled with the RIAA's dirty laundry. You may remember this as the countersuit to the lawsuit where RIAA lawyers tried to grill a 10-year-old girl, only later to drop their case for lack of evidence and have the mother sue them for malicious prosecution."
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  • Disturbing anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by micpp (818596) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:00AM (#18477147) Homepage
    Hmm... they want to be able to meet with a ten-year-old girl in person. Now I may have been around the seedier sides of the internet a bit too much, but does that sound a little disturbing to you?
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:59AM (#18477389)
      Of course it is disturbing and the judge should make sure that everything possible is done to protect this child and make sure that the RIAA gets the bill for it after they lose the case. Let us see what measures might be necessary:

      Guardian Ad Litem perhaps?

      Child Protective Services?

      Psychologists?

      Each of the above could probably add others to the list, but really, why don't the judge just do as many others have done and have a semi-private chat with the girl after reading submissions from both sides and then making a decision on whether arguements should be heard on her testifying or if the RIAA should just take a flying leap. If either side brings in professional testimony as to the child's ability to testify it could take forever and add up to incredible sums of money.

      If anyone reading here is associated with or knows someone associated with an Oregon law school, please make sure they know about this case as some free legal research and Friends of the Court filings might be beneficial to the young lady. Wouldn't hurt to let the highest possible elected officials and press to know they should follow the case as well.

      Just in case it isn't obvious enough from my post, IANAL.
      • by kgskgs (938843) on Sunday March 25 2007, @03:27PM (#18480977) Journal
        It's surprising to see so many people here falling for "must-protect-that-kid- from-that-big-bad-guy" syndrome.

        Explanation is clear and simple. Most of the people who do music piracy fall in early-teen age group. RIAA is making a statement by going after that girl. This is a business decision. That's it.

        They don't care if they look like bad evil guys. In fact that's the point.

        I am sure that they will make sure this news gets enough publicity, and then they will let that girl go with minimum trouble.

        If after reading a story, you have to believe that things took this course because somebody was inherently, incorrigibly evil, you are probably wrong. We live in a world where conflict of interest cannot be avoided even if everybody is good person.

        K
    • by Mateo_LeFou (859634) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:15AM (#18477455) Homepage
      Everyone over 10 has realized that the RIAA is a decaying corpse and (I sincerely believe) would boycott them completely if it were made easy [riaaradar.com].
    • by nanojath (265940) on Sunday March 25 2007, @10:51AM (#18479053) Homepage Journal
      Hmm... they want to be able to meet with a ten-year-old girl in person. Now I may have been around the seedier sides of the internet a bit too much, but does that sound a little disturbing to you?

      A nervous-looking man wearing a conservative suit and carrying a briefcase enters an ordinary suburban home. He hears the "ten year old" he's arranged to meet call that she will be down in a minute as soon as she fetches her MP3 player.

      He is startled when Chris Hansen [msn.com] enters the room...

      Honestly though, I'm starting to feel like some sort of devious anti-industry genius has infiltrated the RIAA and is brilliantly coordinating a devastating bad-publicity campaign.
    • by Simonetta (207550) on Sunday March 25 2007, @11:15AM (#18479289)
      Someone could take advantage of the madness of the RIAA. First issue a press release that if elected, you will support the review of the copyright laws. Then watch closely for the the RIAA/MPAA to donate money to your opponent. Then come out swinging and don't stop: "My opponent takes money from people who want to put you (or your kids) in jail for moving songs from their CDs to their iPods." "My opponent takes money from organizations who sue 10-year-olds for hundreds of thousands of dollars!".
          Be a real pit bull. Have many copies of the affidavits, etc... ready to hand out at press meetings and political rallies. Keep on message: Sue the children! Imprison the teenagers! (don't forget to get those 18+ year olds registered to vote!)Sue the children! Imprison the teenagers! Sue the children! Imprison the teenagers!

          People really do hate the RIAA when the learn what this organization is actually doing. You have a good chance of winning the election by taking the anti-RIAA stand instead of just blindly supporting them.
      • by packeteer (566398) <packeteer@nOsPAM.subdimension.com> on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:05AM (#18477625)
        The other side is... most people listen to top 40 hits on the radiop and dont care. They are happy wage slaves only becuase they dont know any better. Its very nice and all to talk about the choices from our ivory tower but slashdot is fueled by sucessful career type people. Everyone else has no money or knowledge to do any different.
      • by briancnorton (586947) on Sunday March 25 2007, @08:04AM (#18477977) Homepage
        Of course not, media outlets are known for their "fair and balanced" coverage of news stories giving all the angles. In fact, your questioning of the veracity of this article tells me that you are an RIAA agent here to astroturf a media campaign while your nazi cronies arrest and beat this 10 year old girl. This is slashdot, home of the holier-than-thou-hypocrite.

        Read the news, but make sure you keep your grain of salt with you at all times.

      • by twitter (104583) on Sunday March 25 2007, @10:06AM (#18478749) Homepage Journal

        I don't get it though, there has to be another side to this. ... Is there anything we're not being told?

        What's the worst thing you could be told? That the mom is a dirty bad pirate, someone who had the nerve to download gangsta rap? Would that justify any of this? I don't think so. Don't stick your head in the sand!

        What you are left with is the slimy reign of terror that Rogers and Beckerman describe. Thousands of people have been threatened this way. They face the loss of all their possesions, livelihoods and jailtime. Many if not all are innocent. They turn to next of kin when one victim escapes to promote further terror: we will get your kids next! The very tactic proves they don't know who really did what they accuse. It's ugly because extortion is always that way. It's horrifying because huge companies should not act like gangsters. The reality is so horrible that people want to reject it outright rather than believe they live in such an ugly and threatening world. That fearful denial is one of the greatest assets of any tyranny.

        The publishers behind these suits are not really interested in infringement, they want to control the internet itself and shut down all possible competition. The RIAA is a shell organization for the incumbent media companies, publishers, broadcasters and others dinosaurs that want to maintain their current monoply position. They want you to be afraid to share and they dream of charging you for every trivial enjoyment of your own culture. These lawsuits lay bare the true nature of non free publishing, perpetual copyrights, monoploy broadcasting and owned culture.

        It is time to make copyright reasonable again.

          • by twitter (104583) on Sunday March 25 2007, @01:59PM (#18480423) Homepage Journal

            I cannot conceive of any "reasonable" modification of copyright law that could pertain to this, however. Can you clarify?

            You will have to ask my favorite copyright lawyer, Lawrence Lessing [wikipedia.org] for real advice. I don't mind sharing what I think because the law is supposed to reflect the moral sense of the governed. Right now, it reflects the best interests of a few powerful companies and that needs to change. The large list of changes required shows just how far into negative territory things have sunk.

            In short, my opinion is that:

            • Copyright violation is not a crime against the public and penalties should reflect the scale of real losses.
            • Copyright should only last 20 years.
            • It should be easy to tell if a work is copyrighted and who owns it.
            • Commercial reuse of material should be easy and cheap.
            • The entire concept may be outdated.

            Copyright is a created right that's supposed to encourage the spread of knowledge and entertainment. The creation clause of the US constitution was reasonable at the time and it's spirit offers good guidance today. Copyright is supposed to be temporary and government is not supposed to be a burden or anti-competitive tool. Works of merit should become public domain while they are still current and valuable to society. With electronic publication, it may be that the best way to encourage the spread of knowledge and entertainment is to eliminate copyright.

            Penalties for any violation are supposed to be proportional to the offense. Few members of the public believe that someone should lose their house and livelyhood because they shared their music and movie collection. Indeed, most people believe in public libraries and that sharing is good. Decades of industry propaganda have not and will not convince people that copyright violation is the moral equivalent of theft and murder, nor has it convince them that jailtime and $250,000 penalties are justified where physical equivalents carry no such penalty.

            As the jib jab fiasco proves [slashdot.org], copyright should not be nebulous. It is in the public interest to establish a database of copyrighted material and it's owners. Right now, it's difficult to share because the presumption is that everything is owned and the copyright owners say that you can't.

            Finally, recorded history needs to be liberated. It is outrageous that so much of the world's recorded history is owned by so few companies. A copyright database won't really facilitate use and reuse of commercial works if there's only one owner who can charge outrageous fees. Copyright extensions have robbed the public of what they rightly expected to own when the works were created. The owners have used the profits to strengthen their position and rob the public further. The DMCA must be abolished and digital restrictions should be abandoned because they extend copyright beyond the law in a way that deserves no public protection.

            • by dunkelfalke (91624) <dunkelfalke@@@speznas...de> on Sunday March 25 2007, @08:02AM (#18477959) Homepage
              well, normally such a question isn't even worth an answer. but in this case, i make an exception

              no, he isn't right. the riaa at partly run by sony bmg, which is half japanese half german. while there are some jews in germany, they are pretty non-existent in japan. so his first claim is wrong.
              there are kibbutz communities in israel, where jews actually do quite a lot of manual labour. so his second claims is wrong.
              his other claims all base on these two wrong claims and thus are also wrong.

              is your question answered now?
      • by Xabraxas (654195) on Sunday March 25 2007, @12:56PM (#18480041)

        How does someone being ten years old or someone being disabled and on social security make their behavior any different?

        Being 10 years old definitely makes your behavior different. Worse yet the girl was only 7 when the alleged infringement occurred. There is no way the girl even had any idea the implications of her behavior.

        • by beckerist (985855) on Sunday March 25 2007, @01:58PM (#18480405) Homepage
          Do you feel it's fair to "teach someone early on not to steal" by cutting off their hands? How about torture? Putting a 10 year old child in front of a judge, jury and the world is not only extreme, I can't imagine what it will do to this poor child emotionally and psychologically. This is reminiscent of the Middle Ages...
  • by asninn (1071320) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:12AM (#18477205)
    I'm always amazed that it's even possible to prosecute children in the USA at all. In Germany, for example, the age at which you start to have a limited legal liability for your actions is 14; if you're 13 or younger, you can't be prosecuted for anything you do, period. (Of course, your *parents* might, and you might end up in foster care or so, too, but you can't get put on trial or sent to prison or so yourself.) I'm not sure about other nations, but I imagine that it's similar elsewhere, too.

    (And it makes sense, too: when someone isn't old enough to vote, drive a car, drink a beer, smoke a cigarette or have sex with their girl-/boyfriend, why should they be old enough to be put on trial?)
    • by Carewolf (581105) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:30AM (#18477267) Homepage
      It's in the international human rights convention (I think, or an extension dealing with childrens rights).

      Of course USA is the only western country that hasn't signed the human rights convention.
      • by jrumney (197329) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:15AM (#18477459) Homepage

        Of course USA is the only western country that hasn't signed the human rights convention.

        The way you put that makes it sound like the US keeps good company with non-Western nations. Even that is not true. The only other country that hasn't ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is Somalia (the US did sign under Clinton, but Bush has failed to ratify almost every international treaty that Clinton signed up to). In Somalia's case, they don't have a government to sign it.

          • by jrumney (197329) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:19AM (#18477689) Homepage
            The president has to put the treaty before the senate before they can ratify it. Bush has publically expressed his disagreement with this treaty, specifically he does not consider children born into poverty to have a right to state supported education, health services etc.
            • by sumdumass (711423) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:24AM (#18477723) Journal
              Clinton never had the authority to ratify treaties. This is rested in Congress. Bush had nothing to do with it. And the complexities of why it wasn't ratified are too large to look at right here. Another post along this thread has touched on it though. So keep reading.
            • by joshv (13017) on Sunday March 25 2007, @08:29AM (#18478083)
              RTFC - Article II, Section 2, "He [The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur"

              So, you see, you are incorrect, as you apparently failed to read your own reference. The President can negotiate a treaty, but a 2/3rds vote of the Senate is required to ratify.
      • by SirGarlon (845873) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:20AM (#18477481)

        Of course USA is the only western country that hasn't signed the human rights convention.

        At the risk of drifting off-topic, there is a reason for the United States' lack of participation in international agreements of this sort, and the reason is not (usually) a casual indifference to human rights. It has to do with the autonomous legal systems of the individual states, which are protected under the U.S. Constitution. So even if the U.S. were to sign a (perfectly reasonable) treaty restricting how its courts could operate, one could argue that the federal government lacks the authority to tell the state courts how to operate.

        The counter-argument is that the Constitution does grant Congress the power to sign treaties and that should trump the state courts' sovereignty in certain situations. However neither argument is rock-solid; both sides have a point. So the way things usually pan out is that Congress doesn't ratify the treaties because the Congresspersons (who nominally represent the interests of their states, remember) don't want to sign anything that imposes a burden of treaty compliance on the state courts.

        As far as I know this issue has never been put to test in the U.S. Supreme Court, so the status quo is that no one really knows how far the federal government can go in telling state courts how to operate.

        • by 1u3hr (530656) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:42AM (#18477545)
          it has to do with the autonomous legal systems of the individual states, which are protected under the U.S. Constitution.

          The US is hardly unique in having a federal system. That's no real excuse.

          • by SirGarlon (845873) on Sunday March 25 2007, @08:10AM (#18478001)

            That's no real excuse.

            Don't get me wrong; I don't support the state-sovereignty argument myself. I'm just trying to make the point that there are conflicting legal principles involved, and that U.S. voters are somewhat divided on whether local or international standards should take priority. That is, the reason the U.S. hesitates to commit to international treaties such as the convention on human rights cannot be entirely attributed to simple hypocrisy. Because of the conflicting interests of state and federal governments, there's a lack of political will to see the treaties ratified.

            Now, what's really inexcusable in my opinion is that on one hand my government can't commit to signing and ratifying the treaty, and on the other hand it seldom hesitates to condemn other countries' human-right records. They should put up or shut up.

        • by gravesb (967413) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:02AM (#18477607) Homepage
          Actually, the Supreme Court addressed it in Missouri v. Holland, 252 US 416 (1920). Its pretty clear law that Congress can ratify a treaty, and it has the rule of law as long as it does not explicitly violate the Constitution, for instance by infringing on free speech. Infringing on States' rights are perfectly acceptable.
      • by dreamchaser (49529) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:48AM (#18477569) Homepage Journal
        3. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

        I would not sign on to that either. In other words it says, "And if people decide that they don't like where the UN is going, tough shit, your rights and freedoms mean nothing in that case."
    • by rolfwind (528248) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:32AM (#18477279)
      I have to disagree, some children know exactly what they are doing at a young age (talking about malicious acts here). That there are little consequences for them does not improve matters.

      I agree that children under 14 should and can be prosecuted for certain crimes - albeit with a lighter sentence with a nod to maturity, maliciousness and other factors. Now, I am talking about murder, arson, etcetera with direct harm to other people.

      Copyright Infringement is an abstract matter with a real but indefinite (but limited) financial harm involve. It should be accepted downloading music may have deprived the copyright holder of about $.99 for a single track or $15-20 for a CD. Let the punishment fit the crime - it should involve a slap on the wrist. It should not involve bankrupting parents or dragging them through endless court proceedings.

      It should be accepted that by having the court involved that this sort of thing is costing society more than it is worth - that these cases should simply not be accepted. Go to small claims court to get back small claims. Do not claim 100K in fantasy damages to make one person the example to hold up to others. That is not justice.

      That, imo, is a greater violence to the children. Just imagine some father or mother, having lost everything, taking it out on the children - physically or emotionally, after such an event. It doesn't even have to be intentional, just in the background. Or the knowledge that you caused your parents financial ruin growing up as a kid. The way this crap the RIAA pulls can destroy lives is criminal.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      This is not a prosecution. This is a civil suit. The most the court can order is a monetary payment and a cessation of action or an action to make up for what was done. The kid cannot be sent to jail. Anyone can sue anyone else, but only a prosecutor can bring someone to trial where prison is a possibility.
    • And it makes sense, too: when someone isn't old enough to vote, drive a car, drink a beer, smoke a cigarette or have sex with their girl-/boyfriend, why should they be old enough to be put on trial?

      For the simple reason that there's money to be made. You're not looking for any moral basis, are you?
    • by gordo3000 (785698) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:56AM (#18477375)
      um.... read at least a single document from the case. the defendent is the mother of the child. They have the right to request deposition of the child. A deposition is just taking someone's testimony (I believe under oath).

      of course, with respect to the lunacy of your last line, its very simple why they should be old enough to be put on trial: The moral obligations of a person in most societies is taught and understood at a much younger age than anything you mentioned. The mental maturity to consume alcohol in a manner that does not molest or harm others is generally lacking even in people older than 21 in the US, but more pervasively lacking in children. Cigarette smoke has been shown to be detrimental to development of the human body and laws regulating its use are generally in place to attempt to remove smoking completely as it creates a large financial burden on society. Sex with a girl/boyfriend is not illegal if the age difference is small enough. too large, it becomes statutory rape.

      on the other hand, do not steal or hurt someone else are ideas that are taught at very young ages and are internalized at a very young age and even at the age of 12, the willful breaking of these laws is seen as disregard for known laws, not ignorance of a more subtle connection with society.

      keep in mind I did not refer to copyright infringement. For a 7 year old, its hard to explain why its illegal to borrow a friend's video game and put it on their computer(or download music in this case) and as such, should be relegated to seeing a 9 year old driving a car: an unfortunate incident of a parent not being able to control every minor thing their child does, followed by a punishment in line with the damages(in the case of the car, a bit of a scolding from the officer that sees it, in the case of copy right infringement, maybe 2$ per track downloaded(assuming a 10 track, 20 dollar cd which is way over priced). the parent can then easily discipline the child by making them work this money off.

      Now, the way these cases are being handled is actually , I think, an artifact of it being a civil matter and not a criminal one.

      I feel in some ways our criminal system is becoming flawed with 14 year olds treated as complete adults, but then again, the crimes are generally not of a complex nature. Killing someone is wrong and if you are trying to argue that someone shouldn't' be tried for murder just because they haven't quite made it to 18, you'd have to defend to me why such a blanket exoneration should be given (as compared to the current method in the US where it is taken case by case and the mental state of the child is first determined before a judge orders the type of trial to be held).
    • by SirGarlon (845873) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:08AM (#18477431)
      This case (Atlantic vs. Andersen) is a civil case, not a criminal one. So strictly speaking, the child isn't being prosecuted; she's being called to testify. IANAL but I do know that children under a certain age (which I believe varies from state to state) can't be sued in the U.S.. However their parents can be held liable for their actions, which is what appears to be the case here. The U.S. does have a system whereby children can be prosecuted for crimes but it's done in special juvenile courts.
    • by CristalShandaLear (762536) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:03AM (#18477613) Homepage Journal
      Not only do we tolerate our children being prosecuted but we allow them to be handcuffed at five [bbc.co.uk] and tasered at six. [usatoday.com] This 10-year-old doesn't stand a chance.
      • by Threni (635302) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:26AM (#18477253)
        Same in the UK too. I guess it's one of those freedoms you hear the US having - the freedom to drag children into court for non-crimes which only exist to protect the profits of big business. I guess all that lobbying paid off. Who needs all that expensive, risky payola when you avoid getting your hands dirty with cash, cocaine and simply prosecute the children of poor people? God bless America!

  • These stories... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by junglee_iitk (651040) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:18AM (#18477227)
    Does anyone NOT wonder when such outrageous stories come up? I for one do not!

    This is exactly what RIAA wants, to instil a belief that they are evil and they will sue anyone, and they will win, because they are right. That they didn't care when it was granny or a child. PR does the later part of the job.

    There is only one way to fight this: in court we win.

    Or "democracy" but somehow I have lost faith in it.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Or "democracy" but some how I have lost faith in it.

      Then you have lost faith in yourself. I think that's what they're after.

      Always remeber faith and religion are not the same thing.

      Soko
  • by rolfwind (528248) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:18AM (#18477231)
    Okay, first off, let us stop pretending the RIAA cares about it's image - it doesn't. For their current strategy - it's actually beneficial to be despised, hopefully feared. It's the front man for several big music companies and as long as their names (Sony, BMG, etc) are out of the headlines, it is doing its job.

    I just wonder if it will ever backfire - in that the Politicians stand up to them. But under what circumstances? Enough bad publicity? Who haven't they paid off? I'm cynical enough to believe it isn't happening. No matter what regime - political parties themselves are machines of corruption. Always have been, always will be.

    CD sales are down, but that could be due to people buying the single digital tracks they want instead of entire albums. Other than that, the demograhic with the time and money to waste on music - teens and 20 somethings - just don't care. Now, I'm talking about your typical person there - not all of them. The reason is the majority of people like to believe they will never get caught. Like speeding tickets.

    Artists - this will probably be the only weak point but that means they jump from one master to another, like iTunes. Still, some have rocked the boat, I hope others join in.

    I believe nothing will change for a long time though I hope otherwise. I won't shed tears when the racket dies, but don't forsee the internet killing them off for a good long while.
  • Strange ... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jopet (538074) on Sunday March 25 2007, @05:42AM (#18477307) Journal
    What I find strange about the whole music marked situation is that despite the evilness of the RIAA, despite the high CD prices, despite the fact that there is still no user friendly way to buy music cheap and effective without getting locked in to some vendor and/or deprived of even the most minimal rights -- despite all this, people are NOT turning to alternatives. There is practically no significant market that would show how to make it better. There is no significant number of users who would simply ignore the RIAA and go for artists who directly sell their music or other channels. Except piracy.

    In my opinion that says more about the customers than about the RIAA. If people are too dumb to exploit the weakness of the traditional music market -- both as customers or as startup companies -- they deserve exactly this RIAA.

    That is not much different from people in a democracy deserving their Bush or Berlusconi. I never quite understand why all the people then go and blame Bush or Berlusconi instead of the idiots who voted for them.

    So -- why blame the RIAA instead of all the people who keep them in power by STILL buying their stuff and abide by their rules?
  • RIAA Crackers (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:17AM (#18477469)
    Frankly, just the fact that the RIAA hired some company to crack into her computer should be enough to get this case thrown out and charges filed for illegal wiretapping on the RIAA and their paid crackers. Once the crackers had access there is no way to prove they did not do the downloading themselves. Her ISP should file for theft of services too, after all the cracker used the defendant's connection to download their software.

    The above of course is just from a relatively ignorant AC, any network security professionals here care to add some facts or ideas? Just in case the defendant's technical advisor(s) happens to read here, heck Ray might even find it fun reading even if he sees nothing new to him in it.
  • Warner Music Group (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IMustBeNewHere (899319) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:07AM (#18477635) Journal

    Everyone is rallying against RIAA as a whole, but there is only a single RIAA member behind this lawsuit: Warner Music Group, which owns Atlantic Records.

    Warner is the very same company that gave the children of late Mr Scantlebury 60 days to grieve before they would be sued. (Warner v. Scantlebury) They only dropped the suit after it got media attention.

    Warner also owns Elektra Records that is suing a woman with multiple sclerosis. (Elektra v. Schwartz) MS is a disorder that can worsen rapidly if the sufferer is put under stress.

    And, apparently it did: In a March 2 letter [ilrweb.com] to the judge, her lawyer basically writes that she is now so sick that she can no longer defend herself. Guilty or not, Warner Music has shortened her life just the same. I guess "compassion" is a foreign concept to them.

    • by DaMattster (977781) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:43AM (#18477845)
      Wow, this is very disconcerting. Did you know that Warner was founded as a company to protect and provide employment for Jewish actors, cartoonists, and musicians in an era rampant with discrimination? In the 20s and 30s, Jewish cartoonists were refused work at Disney. I am Jewish and the actions of Warner against Schwartz and Scantlebury are unconscionable. It seems like humanity is constantly condemned to repeat history it has never learned. Jews have a specific duty, as I see it, to protect the downtrodden; especially after what we as a people have been through. The two lawsuits mentioned are an absolute abomination. Although, there may be another angle, albeit improbable, that the RIAA applied considerable pressure to bring these lawsuits and Warner capitulated.
    • by supersat (639745) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:48AM (#18477883)
      There's actually several plaintiffs in this lawsuit, as mentioned in the legal documents linked to from the summary:
      • Atlantic Records (owned by Warner Music Group)
      • Priority Records (owned by EMI)
      • Capitol Records (owned by EMI)
      • Universal Music Group
      • Bertelsmann Music Group
      So, the big four [wikipedia.org] are all part of this lawsuit.
  • by SirGarlon (845873) on Sunday March 25 2007, @08:49AM (#18478217)

    In the midst of all the outrage over the RIAA's choice to drag a 10-year-old girl onto the witness stand, I think we're overlooking the extent to which the legal system is working to the benefit of the defense (the girl's mother, Ms. Andersen).

    The defense is entitled to a trial by jury. The defendant is also counter-suing claiming (among other things) that the RIAA's case is based on evidence that was obtained through unlawful computer intrusion.

    It gets better: in the U.S. we have a concept called "punitive damages," which means the court can award additional damages (money) if the party who was in the wrong behaved "outrageously." When I sat on a jury and the subject of punitive damages came up (in Middlesex County Superior Court in Cambridge, Massachusetts), the judge said to consider punitive damages separately, and that the amount should be chosen large enough to deter future outrageous behavior. That is, when it comes to punitive damages, the amount of award is set by how much of a financial penalty would really, really hurt. :-)

    So the RIAA is insisting on hauling a 10-year-old girl onto the witness stand to testify against her own disabled mother. How stupid can they get? I doubt that will play well with a jury. Also, if the RIAA loses their case, they're subject to punitive damages for committing computer crimes in order to obtain their evidence.

    Yes, it's rotten that the RIAA is abusing its right to force the 10-year-old to take the stand, but the defense is making full use of its own rights in this case. If you read the list of complaints Ms. Andersen is making in retaliation, it sure looks as if the RIAA has a lot more to lose in this case than it stands to gain.

    IANAL but I can't imagine why the RIAA's attorneys would take the dire risk of bullying a ten-year-old in a jury trial.

  • Lets stop opening with "RIAA" -- hardly anyone outside of /. seems to have any clue who that really is. Instead, name the actual RIAA members that are responsible, and list a few of their high-profile artists. People should know who to boycott if they're outraged. When "average joe" sees a story about the RIAA suing a kid, he thinks "those bastards!" and then he picks up a CD at the FYE in the mall. To "average joe", there's little connection. Make the title something like "Matchbox Twenty's Label Sues 10-yr Old". In the article, clearly explain that Atlantic Records, the label representing artists like "Matchbox Twenty" (list a few more from their website), in conjunction with their RIAA partners is engaged in a lawsuit against a 10-yr old girl. Explain that by purchasing music by these artists, one is supporting this kind of behavior, even though the artists themselves may not direct the actions. Encourage the artists to speak out against their label and its dubious tactics, suspect methods, and arguably coercive behavior. Help "average joe" understand what continued support of these labels through their artists enables. Don't let them wear one face in the mall and a different one in the courtroom. Let the artists feel the negative side of having the RIAA represent them. Maybe some day in the future artists will stand up and reject the RIAA because its tactics hurt their image. Maybe some day the RIAA labels will have trouble signing new artists because association with the RIAA will hurt their career prospects. That day will never come if people don't associate the artists with the behavior of the RIAA.
    • Very interesting point, $space6host. I hope the /. moderators realize the worth of your thinking and mod it up there to +5.

      It's really 4 big record companies, Universal, Warner, SONY, and EMI, who are doing this whole RIAA thing.

      I have absolutely no conceptual problem with your idea.

      Off the top of my head, some logistical problems present themselves to me:
      -there are also a number of other plaintiffs who are labels owned by those 4,
      -oftentimes the list would include 6,7,8, or more plaintiffs,
      -Slashdot allows very little space for headlines
      -the list would make boring reading to most.

      But you make a very valid point. I should try to make sure that people do know which labels are behind each case, so they can know which labels not to buy from. And which artists need to fight on behalf of their fans.

      Perhaps the answer is to name the first one in the headline. And to provide a list of labels at the end of each story.

      Hmmmm.... you've really given me something to think about. Thanks.

    • You are right. The record labels who are demanding to take the deposition of a 10-year-old girl are identified in the answer and counterclaims [p2pnet.net]. They are
      -Atlantic Recording
      -Priority Records
      -Capitol Records
      -UMG Music and
      -BMG Music.

      Everyone out there, please boycott those labels.

      And if you know of any recording artists on those labels, write to them and let them know what is going on.

      Thank you.

  • by Arcturax (454188) on Sunday March 25 2007, @09:03AM (#18478319)
    And this is what happens when you sue people at random. You are likely to get grandmothers, little girls and even dead people. None of which is good press at all. Worse, it is only a matter of time before the RIAA picks on the wrong guy, like some psycho who will find one of their offices or affiliated law firms, march in with a rifle and have at it. Or worse.

    Given their "win" record so far, which is mostly people who have settled, they are obviously not making any money compared to the cost of sending lawyers to every corner of the US to sue people at random. If I were a shareholder for the companies who fund and back the RIAA, I would be wondering why they are gambling with my money. Eventually they are going to come up snake eyes and there will be a big incident. And then they may start finding it hard to find lawyers willing to take on random cases for fear they will target the next nut.
  • where is Dateline? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by WeeBit (961530) on Sunday March 25 2007, @11:56AM (#18479637) Homepage
    I wonder where Dateline is during all of this? I mean Dateline likes going after predators, and the RIAA is one due to their actions. You would think Dateline would be all over a story like this one.
    • Sorry, no it wasn't (Score:4, Interesting)

      by nietsch (112711) on Sunday March 25 2007, @06:07AM (#18477429) Homepage Journal
      I do agree with you on the fascistiod charges, but the rest of the worls were no better in past times. For instance, what about those guys that gave fascism its name: Italia in the 1920-1930, but sadly that ideology has spread to other parts of the world, or people have independently invented their own form. It is hard to tell wether the US has derived their fascim from the Italian/German version (influences in the 1930 that have not been eradicated) or that this is a more recent invention that just emulates it. Given the time between them, it hardly matters.
    • Re:give it a rest (Score:4, Informative)

      by John Betonschaar (178617) on Sunday March 25 2007, @07:08AM (#18477645)
      what has the mothers disability or income got to do witht he rights and wrongs of the story? Either they are guilty or not. disabled people can be guilty too. This is the worst example of tragic slashdot riaa bashing ive seen in a while.
      grow up.


      Yeah, because 10 year olds and their disabled parents on social security really deserve to be traumatized and possibly have their lives destroyed *for downloading a few friggin' tunes*. And yet you talk about ethics.

      I sincerely hope you get busted and send to jail for jaywalking, copying your CD's to listen them in your car or accidentally downloading copyrighted material some day.