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A Detailed Profile of the Hadron Super Collider

Posted by Zonk on Tue May 15, 2007 11:41 AM
from the big-science dept.
davco9200 writes "The New York Times has up a lengthy profile of the Large Hadron Collider. The article covers the basics (size = 17 miles, cost = 8 billion, energy consumption = 14 trillon electron volts) and history but also provides interesting interviews of the scientists who work with the facility every day. The piece also goes into some detail on the expected experiments. 'The physicists, wearing hardhats, kneepads and safety harnesses, are scrambling like Spiderman over this assembly, appropriately named Atlas, ducking under waterfalls of cables and tubes and crawling into hidden room-size cavities stuffed with electronics. They are getting ready to see the universe born again.' There are photos, video and a nifty interactive graphic."
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[+] Science: Search for Higgs "God Particle" Gets Interesing 392 comments
holy_calamity writes "The Large Hadron Collider is in trouble again. It will start work sometime in spring 2008, not November this year as planned. The delay has been blamed on an 'accumulation of minor setbacks,' and comes on top of a 'design fault' that saw breakdown of magnets supplied by the competing Fermilab. Yesterday Slate nicely rounded up increasingly loud rumors among physicists that Fermilab may already have seen the Higgs particle, the 'holy grail of particle physics' the LHC was build to find."
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  • Cool (Score:5, Funny)

    by grub (11606) <slashdot@grub.net> on Tuesday May 15 2007, @11:42AM (#19132249) Homepage Journal

    They are getting ready to see the universe born again.

    It's like having a Tivo with a 6,000 year replay capacity!

  • Compact?! (Score:5, Funny)

    by TheWoozle (984500) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @11:43AM (#19132253)
    "Above is one of the collider's massive particle detectors, called the Compact Muon Solenoid"

    I'd hate to see the Large Muon Solenoid!
  • by Nimey (114278) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @11:43AM (#19132257) Homepage Journal
    I don't even want to think about a hardon supercollider.
  • by Nom du Keyboard (633989) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @11:48AM (#19132369)
    The problem with something this expensive is that the average person, including myself, cannot see, even if it provides every answer they hope for it, how that will change my everyday life in the least. At least the Space Program gave us Tang.
    • by Jamu (852752) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @12:05PM (#19132693)
      The expense of Physics isn't a problem until it's unaffordable. Physics has always been profitable in the long term, and survives because it's profitable in the short term. And Physics gave you the Space Program.
    • by qc_dk (734452) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @12:16PM (#19132849)
      Well, you used something that came from the CERN collaboration to write your question. I would say that WWW has certainly changed the daily life of almost all of us, and the economic boom that it caused through the 90s has certainly been a bountiful repayment of our investment.

      Cheers,
      Qc_dk
      Ps. I used to work at cern and with the 10'000 men and 2 women there, there certainly was a lot of large hardon collisions. I believe you USians call it cockblocking. ;)
    • by Loki_1929 (550940) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @12:29PM (#19133053) Journal
      Pure science has no marketable goals in mind. What will the discovery of new particles bring to the world? No one knows, just as no one knew the consequences of the discovery of the electron in 1897. Yet we now have a world where the bulk of the economy is built upon knowing its properties and behavior. Pure science brings about quiet revolutions in unpredictable ways, and those who recognize that realize that funding it is vital to progress. You mention the space program giving us Tang; have you any idea how many commercial products have come about as a direct result of the space program? Any idea of the lives saved and the progress achieved through the struggles brought about by our venturing into space?

    • by wanerious (712877) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @12:38PM (#19133179) Homepage
      I'm not trying to be offensive, but that sounds like a remarkably egotistic statement. Should it be required to change your life in any way for you to care about it? Rather than something being wrong with the experiment in that it has no intersection with your interests, perhaps the problem is that your interests are too narrow to accommodate something that (I'd argue) is objectively interesting by any measure. Here is an opportunity for the average person to learn something about the fundamental nature of the Universe to understand the results.
      • Should it be required to change your life in any way for you to care about it?
        Did you really mean "care about," or "pay for?"
        • Either one. Members of a society should occasionally pay for things that are not in their self-interest. This, in my opinion, is surely in that category. It is so interesting that, also in my opinion, every member of the society should attempt to appreciate the science.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      To me endeavors like this are the most perfect expression of man. Vonnegut wrote in Breakfast of Champions,

      Our awareness is all that is alive and maybe sacred in any of us. Everything else about us is dead machinery.

      To plunge into the unknown is a moral imperative for any thinking being.

      If all you care about are material practicalities, this thing is roughly 1/50th the current cost of a certain misadventure in the Middle East, and is more likely to produce cool stuff. One particularly exciting bit of tech

    • by Ambitwistor (1041236) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @02:16PM (#19135023)
      The Large Hadron Collider likely will not change your everyday life, unless you're really into physics. It's not supposed to. It's supposed to help the human race learn more about the natural world in which we live.

      Senator John Pastore: Is there anything connected with the hopes of this accelerator that in any way involves the security of the country?

      Robert Wilson: No sir, I don't believe so.

      Pastore: Nothing at all?

      Wilson: Nothing at all.

      Pastore: It has no value in that respect?

      Wilson: It has only to do with the respect with which we regard one another, the dignity of men, our love of culture. It has to do with: Are
      we good painters, good sculptors, great poets? I mean all the things we really venerate in our country and are patriotic about. It has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to make it worth defending.

      — at the Congressional Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, April 17, 1969, regarding the justification for funding the then-unbuilt Fermilab National Accelerator Laboratory
    • by Dirtside (91468) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @02:56PM (#19135671) Journal
      Tang was created in 1957 or so, and had nothing to do with the space program until they started using it during Gemini.

      That aside, the answer to your question is that we don't know what we're going to learn from projects like this. But we do fundamental research like this anyway, for a variety of reasons best expressed by this article [math.mun.ca].
    • how that will change my everyday life

      You're going to get a flying car, OK?

      Well, maybe. See, the LHC is going to be able to smash things at the Weak Scale energy, which is where we need to look (at what comes out of smashed things) to pick among many theories of how the universe works. Depending on the results, dozens of models will be ruled out, and, if we're lucky, one will be left standing.

      This model will likely contain a theory of quantum gravity. We have lots of ideas about how quantum physics and g
  • by NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @11:51AM (#19132429) Homepage

    ...energy consumption = 14 trillon electron volts...
    So that means the LHC only uses 2.24 microjoules? Is that per second or per fortnight?
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      That's more like 'per hadron'. Ask your electricity supplier to bill you per hadron...

      • Ask your electricity supplier to bill you per hadron...

        Particularly since electricity suppliers only provide you with leptons, no hadrons. And they make you give them back when you're done with them. Bastards.

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            I hate to be pedantic, but I think a given electron crosses the property line in your direction once every cycle - not half-cycle.

            Let's start a zero voltage with the electron right on the border of your property. The voltage rises to 110/220, and the electron moves towards your house and you "buy" it. Voltage drops to zero and it comes to a halt inside your house somewhere. Voltage drops to -110/220 and the electron moves away from your house. Voltage rises to zero just as the electron crosses your prop
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Hmm.. I thought that each proton would be accelerated to 7 TeV, so when they collide there is a 14 TeV collision. In any case, "energy consumption" is the wrong term.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      From TFA:

      Everything about the collider sounds, well, large -- from the 14 trillion electron volts of energy with which it will smash together protons (...)
      So that energy is not the consumption (which would be more usefully measured in Watts anyway, as you point out), but the energy the particles have when they collide (which is usually measured in (T)eV).
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      This really is a strange figure. It might reference anything but the consumption, most notably, the "energy" inside the ring. Or maybe the consumption of ONLY the ring itself, becaue when you start looking at the magnets, and vacuum pumps, and control system infrastructure you quickly find out that you need to be connected to at least 2 power grids :-). At least that's the case with DESY if I remember correctly.
  • seventeen miles? I went to look at the pictures, but i don't see anything that comes close to seventeen miles. Certainly, i don't doubt it, but not knowing much about particle accelerators and supercolliders, i am very curious to get the big picture. If something is seven-teen-miles long, or around, or deep or high, wow, do i really want to see it. or an overlay of it on a map if it is underground!

    Perhaps it is just the structural engineer side of me, but i would love to know more about how they made some
    • As ever you can start with Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and work outward from there.
    • das ist underground.
    • Here is a map [web.cern.ch] showing the layout of the LHC. It actually consists of two rings and a couple of linear accelerator stages so they aren't injecting cold particles into the high energy beam. Keep in mind, the main ring is 17 miles around and about 100 meters underground. A lot of the people living inside its circumference probably don't actually realize what's going on underneath their feet, other than the various CERN campuses spread around the ring and all the nerdy looking people going in and out. In fact,
  • Sorry Charlie, the animations of the Standard Model are up on YouTube, http://youtube.com/watch?v=ExNPiMcVXww [youtube.com]

    U(1) is a unit circle in the complex plane. SU(2) is a unit quaternion which is easy to animate if you have software for the job (barf out thousands of exp(q-q*), sort by time, drive through POVRay). Electroweak is the product of the first two. The animation of SU(3) tells you what the standard model is about, namely the ability to smoothly describe any event seen by an observer at 0,0,0,0. Gravity is about the sizes of things, so scale the ball to different sizes in a smooth way, and that is the symmetry behind gravity.

    It is inertial mass that breaks the symmetry of standard model, not some phony Mexican hat dance around a false god of a vacuum.

    doug
    • Questions:

      * What does the quarternion formulation tell us that the standard Standard Model formulation does not? I understand that it provides a unified framework for treating the different groups, but particles in the Standard Model are still charged separately under electroweak and strong -- is this a high energy theory, where we expect gauge coupling unification somewhere?

      * I don't understand your concept of inertial mass breaking gauge symmetries. The Standard Model is Lorentz invariant, and gauge p
  • They are getting ready to see the universe born again.

    Great... So the next time I get stuck behind it in traffic I'm gonna have to stare at some stupid fish logo...
  • by mattnyc99 (1008511) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @11:57AM (#19132545)
    This stuff is pretty cool, but The New Yorker's incredible science writer (who basically told the rest of the world about global warming) had a more in-your-face profile of the LHC [newyorker.com] last week, and Popular Mechanics has officially dubbed it "The World's Biggest Science Project." [popularmechanics.com] Sweet.
  • /. does it again! (Score:5, Informative)

    by perturbed1 (1086477) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @12:08PM (#19132727)
    There are more mistakes in the /. gist than in the NYTimes article -- which incidentally is a good summary for the LHC. Well, the writer was at CERN about a month ago, so I am assuming it took about that long to write it.

    It is called the LHC -- Large Hadron Collider. Not the Hadron SuperCollider. The SuperCollider [slashdot.org] is dead. It was called the SSC. But it has passed on. It has ceased to be! It has expired and gone to meet its maker! Its a stiff! Bereft of line and rests in peaces in TX! It's kicked the bucket and shuffled off its mortal coil! (Gee. I wish I could write this about the M$! Grrr!!)

    The energy consumption is 14 trillion electron volts?! Wt..? Last time, I checked the LHC could not run on days where the electricity prices were high. Actually, it can not run during winter for that reason. It and the detectors consume as much energy as you get out from a medium-sized nuclear reactor -- and that's why it sits partially in France and not fully in Switzerland. (France produces a whole lot more power than Switzerland.)

    "The piece also goes into some detail on the expected experiments. " Huh? What expected experiments? The experiments have been in construction now for seven years. You mean expected results?!

    Honestly, how many mistakes can you make in one paragraph??

    Sorry about the rant, but I am so annoyed with the latest reports about M$'s threats, that I had to vent. I feel better now. Slightly.

  • Ignoring that a TeV is a unit of energy and not power, that's about 2e-6 joules... a flea sneezes more energetically than that. They mean that individual particles can reach this energy. Actual power consumption is probably enough to power a dozen DeLoreans.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      Actually, what you said is not quite correct either. That's the center of mass collisional energy. Individual particles can reach half that, or 7 TeV.
  • The blurb above looks like a Dr. Evil quote -- I assume you realize that "14 trillion eV" is a miniscule amount of energy? It's about 2 micro Joules, or .5 microcalories.

    On the scale of a single particle, this is a tremendous amount of energy (for comparison, the energy scale for chemical reactions such as combustion is a few eV). Imprtaing so much energy to a particle (as well as powering the detectors, cooling appartus etc) means the whole collider has a massive energy budget -- way way bigger than 14

  • by porkThreeWays (895269) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @12:12PM (#19132801)
    There's a youtube video out there (I really wish I could find it) and it has the IT manager for the project. I have to wonder a little bit about him because he was asked why they didn't go with the cell processor instead of Intel based processors. His answer was "The P4's have better floating point processing". I could understand a lot of reasons to go with the P4 because there are a lot of good x86 programmers out there and they could reuse a lot of code etc etc. Has anyone else seen this video?
  • 14 TeV is the amount of energy that is in a collision from two 7TeV beams colliding. In this case, the beam means particles (protons) accelerated to carry 7TeV of momentum. But that's just one "particle". The LHC, there are many "buckets" of particles being stored and collided and the total stored energy around the whole ring is 360MegaJoules. It is fairly easy to calculate actually:

    There are 2808 bunches around the ring, each containing 1.15x10^{11} protons each with 7TeV of momentum. 7TeV = 7x10^{12}

    • Oh, btw, the power consumption of the LHC only (excluding the detectors) is ~120MW.

      I am pretty sure that most of that 120MW is used to power the electromagnets that confine the beams.

      14 TeV is the amount of energy that is in a collision from two 7TeV beams colliding. In this case, the beam means particles (protons) accelerated to carry 7TeV of momentum. But that's just one "particle". The LHC, there are many "buckets" of particles being stored and collided and the total stored energy around the whole ring i
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Err.... Actually, this power does not go into the electromagnets directly. The electromagnets happen to be superconducting magnets, which, once powered, do not require more current. That's not where the power goes. The power goes into keeping it cool. 18kW of synchrotron radiation is dumped into the cryogenics system. The syncrotron radiation is due to the relativistic charged particles curving under the influence of the magnetic fields, but this dumped energy needs to be extracted before it results in a
  • Corrected summary (Score:3, Informative)

    by l0b0 (803611) on Tuesday May 15 2007, @02:00PM (#19134695) Homepage

    Circumference = 27 kilometers (~17.5 miles), cost = 8 billion USD (presumably, and only for the construction), energy consumption = ~120 MW, particle energy = 14 TeV.

    More interesting statistics [web.cern.ch] are available on the LHC outreach site.

    What a half-assed attempt at a submission. Even the title is a mix between the SSC [bbc.co.uk] and the LHC.

    • Do you think the person quoted is 4 years old like your grandchild? Or maybe he/she is 35-34, and his grandfather is dead.

      Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      The quoto from the article is definitly wrong. Should be:
      "the physics is complex, but the controls are so simple, even a theoretical physicist can use it." ;)
      - chribo
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        I don't know if that's the inside joke I think it is, but I think you're way off base. The theoretical physicists we've had briefly in our lab (for requisite graduate student lab experience) couldn't handle anything more complicated than a pencil! One of them used a gallon jug of acetone to clean something the size of a quarter (exaggerating, but only slightly.)
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      No. 14TeV is the energy of a single hadron, not the energy involved on the whole LHC.

      So if the beam had a current of 1 amp (1 Coulomb / sec) then the energy of the particles in the beam would be 6.241×10^18 * 7x10^-13 = 4.3*10^6 kW*Hr. That's a lot of energy, and I'm guessing the beam currents are MUCH less than 1 amp. BTW, power = energy / time or work / time.

      Mods are clueless on this one.