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Polish Fans Held By Police For Movie Translations

Posted by Zonk on Fri May 18, 2007 09:56 AM
from the harsh-critics dept.
michuk writes "Nine people involved in a community portal Napisy.org were held for questioning by the Polish police forces this Wednesday. They will be probably be accused of publishing illegal translations of foreign movies (which is forbidden by Polish copyright law). Napisy.org website was shut down immediately afterwards by the German forces (since the servers were located in Germany). The service was the most popular Polish on-line portal where users were free to submit translated subtitles for popular movies. 'According to Polish copyright law any "processing" of others' content including translating is prohibited without permission. The people held (aged 20 - 30) were questioned on Wednesday and Thursday and then allowed to leave. In case of being accused of illegal publishing of copyrighted material, they can spend in jail up to 2 years (in the worst case).'"
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  • Illegal thing... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by slashthedot (991354) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:00AM (#19179017) Homepage
    If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.
    Rather than blaming them, the law needs to be changed.
    • Re:Illegal thing... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Frymaster (171343) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:09AM (#19179141) Homepage Journal
      If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.

      to a certain degree, this makes sense. witness the 2003 illegal translation of harry potter and the order of the phoenix. it was so bad that the quality of the content was dramatically reduced... at one point the translator even wrote "Here comes something that I'm unable to translate, sorry."

      so, the idea of having 'approved' translators can be necessary to preserve the integrity of the content.

      my source for this is here [bbc.co.uk]

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Yeah, but what if it's the "state approved" translation that's horrible? You'd be up a creek. In this case, the horrible translation would be replaced by a much better one when someone realized they could do a better job. This happens a lot in the fansub community. Often the first translation is the worst because it's a rush job, but then a "HQ" fansubber will follow up and put out a solid translation.
        • Re:Illegal thing... (Score:5, Informative)

          by Jhon (241832) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:44AM (#19179687) Homepage Journal

          Yeah, but what if it's the "state approved" translation that's horrible?
          State what? State apporved what???

          Did you even the article or this thread? Those translating need approval from the HOLDER of the copyright -- not the state. If it's "horrible", then I doubt the copyright holder will see much of a profit...
      • DO NOT WANT [exstatic.org]
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.
      Translating for your own use is not illegal in Poland. Publishing is.

      Same as with music and movies - we can download them, we can't publish (upload) them.
    • If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.

      Here's my question: In American and European countries, would it be illegal to publish a transcript of an entire movie without permission? How about if the transcript were in a different language from the original movie? It may not be just Polish law in question.
      • I'm pretty certain it is in most countries (I'm certain it is in the US and in Sweden... see my earlier post in this thread). Think of it in this way: any part with sufficent originality in a movie is copyrightable. So you have copyright restrictions on using anything from the musical score, still pictures and dialogue etc.

        Next you need to think about what would happen if a derivative work in form of translation wouldn't need permission from the copyright holder: I could translated Harry Potter into swed
        • You're totally free and clear to rip characters, plot devices, musical phrases, etc. It's when you substantially copy it that it becomes a problem. If you weren't allowed to use bits and pieces from previous productions society as a whole would halt.

          As for the entire screenplay being written "clean house." That's still a violation. It'd be like cam cording the movie.

          Tom
      • In the US, yes, assuming the dialog itself was original and not otherwise exempt from copyright. The transcript would be considered a derivative work, the preparation and distribution of which is an infringement. You can't just do an English transcript of the dialog -- why would you be able to do a translation of that transcript into a different language?

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            Not exactly. There is a difference between the copyright in the recording and the copyright in the underlying musical work. So, if I write a song and you record it (with my permission), then there are two copyrighted works in the recording: my song and your performance of it. So, Bob Dylan owns the rights to the song "All Along the Watchtower," but Jimi Hendrix's estate owns the rights to his recording of the song.

            The RIAA goes after those who infringe on the copyright of the recording. The Harry Fox A
    • Re:Illegal thing... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Yetihehe (971185) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:24AM (#19179391)
      Well, it ISN'T illegal to translate only text in Poland.

      By judgement of Highest Court from 23.01.2003: The making of translation of word layer of audiovisual creation does not make processing of it as a whole. Thereby it can be spread without consent of the maker of original work. The translator have copyrights to translation.
      So whole action was on illegal grounds. But they found many upon many pirated films in those folks' houses, so they will have jail or fines anyway.
    • If it is illegal to translate, the Polish police was right in arresting the guilty.
      They didn't arrest the guilty. They never arrest the guilty. They arrest suspects who may be declared guilty later. I know it sounds like nitpicking, but it is an important distinction.
  • by prothid (302906) <slashdotNO@SPAMunfit.org> on Friday May 18 2007, @10:02AM (#19179037) Homepage
    This has to be a bad Polack joke. I bet they arrest signers for the deaf at concerts, too.
    • If they get the death penalty the court will order them to smell the scratch-n-sniff sticker at the bottom of the community pool.
    • How do they determine that this is actually a translation? Presumably by having someone make an (illegal) translation and comparing the two?
  • by KokorHekkus (986906) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:06AM (#19179083)
    I would think that most countries classify translation as an derivative work. And surely the dialogue in a movie must be copyrightable. Only reason it hasn't happend in the US might be that foreign movies aren't as popular in the US and that MPAA mainly cares about homegrown material.

    The following part of USC 17 Chapter 1 seems pretty clear to me (my emphasis):

    A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work".
    USC 17 Chapter 1:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/ usc_sec_17_00000101----000-.html>
    • The dialogue in films is indeed copyrighted. It's just that film scripts and transcripts are one of the longest continuing copyright violations on the modern Web. (Who else was around for the whole "Kirk dies in Star Trek Generations" uproar, fueled by that script being leaked to the Internet?) So, people have just become a bit more complacent about it than most other copyright violations.
    • The US and Japan both are the same -- translations are derivative works. I wanted to translate an old silent-era Japanese film and release it to the public, but it's still under copyright in both countries. However, there's no freaking way this film would ever be commercially subtitled, so it's a shame that potentially interested parties are being deprived of the opportunity to see it.

      On a more positive note, there are other silent-era films available to watch. I suggest "I Was Born But..." by Yasujiro Ozu.

    • The difference is, most films are made in the USA, and few USA filmmakers provide translations into Polish.

      Whereas most Polish films are already available with English subtitles (admittedly- or rather, thankfully- usually EN:GB).

      This sounds like something the EU normally fixes. I'm surprised the EU haven't created a legal exemption in these kinds of cases. Translating into minority languages is normally heavily supported by the EU. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if the guys take it to the European Court or somesu
  • Wiki.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by onion2k (203094) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:07AM (#19179103) Homepage
    Would that mean a Polish person can't legally alter a Wikipedia entry? If I go and deface the entry for some leading Polish politicians could they be arrested if they fixed the page? That's really quite tempting. :twisted:
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      Wikipedia content is *licensed* to all recipients under the GFDL, and so translation is allowed.
      • It wasn't about translating audio, that would be illegal. It was about making subtitles which is not enough of a work altered, so translator have the copyrights for translation
  • Encounter (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 18 2007, @10:15AM (#19179259)
    Officer: Ok, come along nice and easy and nobody will get hurt.
    Fan: Geck, wo ist mein Auto?
    Officer: Suspect appears to be armed with translated movie quotes, shoot on site!
  • Anime fansub (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jshriverWVU (810740) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:18AM (#19179311)
    This sounds like it could have a big impact on the anime fansub culture in Poland. Fansubs distribute the entire video, seems like these people were just offering .sub texts.
  • by SQLz (564901) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:18AM (#19179315) Homepage Journal
    In case of being accused of illegal publishing of copyrighted material, they can spend in jail up to 2 years (in the worst case).'

    In the USA you get less jail time for phyiscally beating someone and taking their copyrighted material than publishing copyrighted material.

    • Same here in Poland ;). Although if you harm the offender, he can sue you and you're going to jail.
  • by DriveDog (822962) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:19AM (#19179329)

    2 years? For the equivalent of making closed caption files?

    I am always reminded of the rules applicable to Commonwealth of Virginia employees when I was one.

    An employee could be fired for one instance of a level 3 offense immediately. It took more than one level 2 offense to be fired.

    Punching one's boss was a level 2. Sleeping on the job was a level 3.

    Sleeping while driving a bus might be worse than punching a boss, but most of the time this seemed upside-down and backwards to me.

    • Punching one's boss was a level 2. Sleeping on the job was a level 3.

      What would you have to do to get it down to a level 1? Burn the building down?

  • On the topic of making your own subtitles: can someone point me to some software that helps you to create subtitles on Linux? I have looked, but haven't found anything really yet. I would expect something that works in conjunction with a video player like mplayer that helps to record (approximate) time stamps of when the subtitles should appear. Any hints?
  • Admittedly, I don't know much about the process of DVD subtitling, but I was under the impression that these were files distributed separately from the DVD rip. If that's all the site was supplying, isn't this akin to allowing the distribution of emulators but not the beloved ROM images associated with them?
  • by cptnapalm (120276) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:27AM (#19179447)
    So these guys enabled people to be able understand what the characters are saying in a movie.

    I can see why this would be a threat to Hollywood.

    After all, who will want to see the bulk of these films when it becomes common knowledge that behind the beautiful people and gorgeous back drops are atrocious dialogue and paint-by-numbers plots.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 18 2007, @10:31AM (#19179481)
    Fortunately, Polish authorities didn't realize they locked these fans on the outside of the jail cells at the same time trapping the police inside and the fans just ended up walking away.
  • the impact of the internet is that it turns what were previously audiences into publishers. now everyone is a bertelsmann or a metro goldwyn mayer, in their living room or den or study. the same sort of power dynamics was at work over the creation of the printing press: fedualism depended in part on the ignorance of the serfs, the inability to read. when they were freed form this ignorance due to the sudden cheap and wide availability of the printed word, all sorts of political dynamics changed, fomenting revolutions and evolutions i think that are still playing out in the world over 500 years later

    well the internet frees people from being tied to distribution channels. and as with the printing press, there is an entrenched power that is losing because of this. of course movies, music, etc. is not going away because of the internet. but how movies and music are made and distribtued and how they make money is very definitely going to change, and there are real losers because of this. big (currently rich powerful, not for long) losers

    but the internet was originally designed to route around damage in the event of nuclear war. compared to that, the "damage" that entrenched media interests will exert on the net is paltry, and easily routed around

    there's no putting this genie back in the bottle

  • by Hoi Polloi (522990) on Friday May 18 2007, @10:43AM (#19179667) Journal
    Punishment for translating? Looks like things haven't changed in Europe much. [greatsite.com]
  • in case anybody wonders why this happens ... movies in poland are normally dubbed with ONE guy translating all the roles in the movie. i already hate the german dubbing. not lipsync. you may even see a totally different movie with german dubbing and their creative dubbing. .. etc etc ... but at least its professional and every actor gets its own german dubbing-actor. but the most horrible thing is an age 40-50 guy translating the movie by himself. its been like that forever in poland.
  • by C4st13v4n14 (1001121) on Friday May 18 2007, @11:37AM (#19180491)
    I have had the displeasure of living in Poland for the last four years. What you need to understand is that all foreign films/series released to VHS, DVD, and TV are dubbed into Polish BY ONE MAN. Yes, that's right. One guy does ALL the voices for ALL the actors in EVERY movie! If it is decided that a certain film will not be dubbed (and there are many of these), there will never be the possibility of watching this film by Polish-speaking people, unless they speak English. In the large cities, finding someone who speaks English is becoming easier as capitalism takes over, but let me add that when I arrived here four years ago, absolutely no one spoke English! I had to visit the local university's English department to find any. So in order to bring the people of Poland classics like Twin Peaks, and a whole slew of Hollywood and non-Hollywood films, there's a group that focuses on writing subtitles to these films and series. It's basically something anyone can contribute to, and it's just like the Polish police to shut it down.

    Every good thing that happens in this country gets shut down. It's completely hypocritical and they are targeting the wrong people. I live in a city of around 700 000 inhabitants and there are eight copy shops within 500 metres in any direction of my flat (I don't even live in the centre). I can go out to any of these copy shops and have a copyrighted textbook photocopied for about 3 cents (US) a page. Some copy shops even keep a library of texts that one can look through and order. Anything you want you can get, whatever subjects you're studying. One guy even has a website where you can order copied books beforehand, pay by credit card, and pick them up at your leisure! Most of the students here in Poland have never owned a real textbook, everyone buys photocopies. While it's true that many Polish students live off of less than 100$US a month (the average salary here is about 300$US a month or 5zl an hour so their parents don't have much to give them), the copy shops are making their living off of copyright infringement. Any day of the week, one can also go down to a special market and purchase bootlegged DVDs, CDs, software, and games. The police don't do much about these people, either.

    In order to combat book photocopying, the government started a tax on all photocopies of 3gr a page (about 1 cent US). Now all photocopies are about 4 cents a page, and the tax goes not to the publishers or companies being infringed upon, but to the government. I think it's something like the tax the Canadian government puts on blank computer media. I think it's ridiculous. In typical Polish style, rather than identify the problem and deal with it, they do something completely stupid. For two years after I moved here, there was dog shit all over the pavement/sidewalks wherever people walked. You had to really look where you were going, because you would step in it. Rather than teach people to curb their dogs, or give fines for not picking up after animals, they hired people to go around every morning and clean the sidewalks of dog shit! They need to think about their labour laws and how much people are being paid (in an EU country, no less!), but instead they worry about some young people doing the people of Poland a service by writing subtitles for those who don't know English (or Turkish, or Greek, or Hindi).
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      If it is decided that a certain film will not be dubbed (and there are many of these), there will never be the possibility of watching this film by Polish-speaking people, unless they speak English.

      Unless... you know... THEY CAN READ. The fact that one guy does voice overs (not dubbing - that's a whole other industry, limited mainly to children's movies.) doesn't mean 95% of movies in the theaters are subtitled and you can buy thousands of movies that are, again, subtitled with neither a voice over or dubbe
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      From the article...

      Napisy.org was the most popular Polish portal where users were free to submit translated subtitles for popular movies (mostly from English to Polish, but not only). Popular video players could be then used to display the subtitles when playing a movie (usually a DVD-rip).
      They were merely distributed the subtitle files to overlay onto a movie file.
    • How is this story "News for nerds" or "stuff that matters?" File it under the "Polish crime blotter" category and not "Your rights online" because clearly the Polish don't have these rights.

      The translated subtitles were published online. You realize that the "Your" in "Your rights online" doesn't just refer to you, specifically, right?

        • You do realize parent poster was not referring to himself, right? Because the whole "the Polish don't have these rights" sort of made it clear that he was talking about Poles and not ugly-Americans like himself.

          So you think he meant that "Your rights online" only refers to the rights that one has, not the rights one doesn't have, or wish one had? I can see how you could read it that way, but that would make for a rather dull discussion, chatting about all the things one could do online if one wished to .

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      On the surface there's not much to the story, but look a little deeper.

      They were releasing translated subtitle files to be used with videos. Presumably, since they needed translating, these were foreign discs. Possibly imported, sure, but the implication is likely that people need these subs to enjoy material not released by the media cartels for that region, and therefore instigates piracy: the favorite bogeyman.

      Of course, since the big companies couldn't be bothered to translate it and release it in that
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        It is NOT illegal to translate only text from a film. It is illegal to translate film and release it publickly. But they were only spreading translated texts, and translated text is not whole copyrighted material, so copyrights for translations belong actually to translator.
      • The ideas of copyright and patents have grown into this thing we call IP. I've mentioned this dozens of times now, but it is the simple truth.

        IP laws have been about control of information and not profit for at least 25 years. Simple profit motives tell you that region encoding is not a bright idea. If someone wants to pay to import a disk, have it translated, etc. they will still be in the market for a nicely done local language version. You could potentially make two sales, or one sale if you never

    • Um, because it's Illegal in the US as well?
    • You know that Slashdot is viewed worldwide, not just in the US. (And, yes, I'm an American).