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New HD TiVo and Cable Incompatibilities

Posted by kdawson on Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:26 AM
from the so-it's-interaction-you-want dept.
Media Television Entertainment Hardware
Lauren Weinstein writes "The rapid deployment of Switched Digital Video (SDV) by cable companies can cause major problems for buyers of the new HD TiVo, preventing any access to some channels."
+ -
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Submission: Warning: New HD TiVo and Cable Incompatibilities by Anonymous Coward
[+] Cable Industry Responds Regarding HD TiVo Problems 91 comments
Lauren Weinstein writes "The day after the issue of cable system incompatibilities with the new HD TiVo and similar devices was discussed on Slashdot, the cable television industry has responded with a workaround proposal in a new FCC filing, though key issues remain to be fully resolved."
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  • More background from TivoCommunity (Score:5, Informative)

    by voidstin (51561) on Thursday August 23 2007, @11:37AM (#20331923)
    here.... seems like there's still a transition period where channels are being offered in both SDV and analog

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.ph p?t=357703 [tivocommunity.com]

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by WhiteWolf666 (145211)
        Huh?

        Most of these 3rd party digital tuning solutions suck, quiet frankly. Anything that is sold as an add-on for the PS3 is not going to have much market uptake.

        The real "long-term" solution to this stuff is IP video, not switched. Content providers *should* go online, and you should have IP boxes that hook up to your TV to access the stuff. Locally cached content should play the same as remote content.

        And we're getting there in the U.S. You can go to ABC.com and watch most of the latest shows (unfortunatel

  • Oh no (Score:4, Funny)

    by Joseph1337 (1146047) on Thursday August 23 2007, @11:37AM (#20331933)
    But the porn channels... why!?

  • if we had a tough FCC, (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jay2003 (668095) on Thursday August 23 2007, @11:38AM (#20331943)
    they'd stick to guns on the CableCARD mandate and shut down cable systems that were not compatible with 3rd party devices. With a credible shutdown threat looming, this problem would get fixed in less than a month. I know it will never happen due to the huge campaign contributions politicians get from cable companies.

    I'm not convinced the cable companies are doing themselves an favors. I'm unlikely to upgrade from my old analog cable if can't have an HD Tivo. Cable companies seem to think HD is a form of crack people cann't live without but I'm doing just fine on analog.

    • Re:if we had a tough FCC, (Score:5, Insightful)

      by svendsen (1029716) on Thursday August 23 2007, @11:41AM (#20331999)
      Come on you know you NEED cable and HD and everything else they sell. I've come to the realization that nothing on TV is worth what is being charged. I just dropped all my HBOs, Showtimes, digital cable, boxes, etc. for plain old standard cable (76 channels at a rip off price of $50).

      The funny thing is the lady on the phone kept saying she didn't understand why I didn't want all this great stuff.
      • Yeah, when I had cable I watched five different programs. Good Eats, Iron Chef, Stargate. Right now it would be nice to get Dr Who, Good Eats, Iron Chef, Feasting on Asphalt, Mythbusters, and reruns of some old shows every now and again would be cool. Quite honestly, if I had to pay a few bucks to download them, and they had adds, it would still be a better deal than cable.
        • That is pretty much what Apple is hoping with the AppleTV , Sony is hopping for with the PS3, and Microsoft is hoping for with the 360, and Google with YouTube.

          When will we see the first direct to iTunes TV show?

          • and i would get an iTV if it had composit or svid out.. sorry but not everyone has an HD tv .. and nore do we want to pay for one.>

            also a build in dvd rom for movies would be nice but not required....

            oh .. and please kill iTunes already
            • "oh .. and please kill iTunes already"
              Not going to happen. Most people seem to like iTunes. I am not a huge fan but people do seem to like it and it is how they sell their stuff.
              I want iTunes for Linux and for Apple to make iTunes fit into Windows and or Linux better.
              Right now it looks like a Mac app running on a windows box.
              Which it is
        • Mythbusters has jumped the shark. It happened right around the time they built that sign which says "Warning: Science Content".
            • I wish somebody would start uploading torrents of the mythbusters episodes with the myths un-shuffled. (Like they were in the first season)

              I'd rather watch one myth end to end instead of having them jump around and spend a third of the time on recaps.
      • lol, i promised not to give the cable co any money after trying cable internet and getting a 12K speed test ... 8 years and counting :)

        I decided a couple years back i might get cable if i saw an ad that actually said how much it costs...they don't. 6 months is not relevant if i will have it for years and years. Even one telemarketer couldn't tell me what if would cost after the promo.

        Just not worth the $55+extras it takes to get to a tier i would want. All i really want is SciFi (duh) and Speed (to get som

      • Re:if we had a tough FCC, (Score:4, Interesting)

        by planetralph (944937) on Thursday August 23 2007, @01:39PM (#20333707) Homepage
        Try over the air HDTV. Antennas still work and work great with HDTV. www.antennanweb.org will tell you what stations you can get. I didn't upgrade cable to HD when I got an HD TV, but I got an antenna and its working out great for network HDTV content. With an HD Tivo box I would have plenty of content at hand, so I wouldn't need cable's 100 stations. My kids don't want me to cancel their Nick and Disney channel, but if Comcast jacks their rates up after my 1 year trial is over cable is gone. Ralph
    • Amen, brother! How long have we been talking about freeing up the analog spectrum? Why is this taking so long? It's because the FCC has no intention of shutting anybody down.

      It's the old axiom "all work expands to fit the amount of time allotted to its completion." If the FCC keeps wringing its hands and telling broadcasters/cable companies to get it together "or else..." it's never going to get done. Mostly, the cable companies are coming up with newer and better ways to take as many rights away from co
    • Think about getting a receiver for over the air HD. It's fewer channels, but usually the signal is less compressed than it is with cable, and you can do almost anything with the incoming signal.

      That works to fill all your live TV needs, then for series that would normally be on cable buy them on ITMS or elsewhere.

      ---> Kendall
      • Agreed. All you need to recieve over the air HD is a UHF antenna and a digital tuner.

        I bought a device called an HDHomerun just for this purpose. It's an inexpensive dual tuner reciever for unencrypted digital content; streams content over ethernet to any computers on the lan. Now my only concern is harddrive space; storing the shows in their original quality can take 6G per hour -- not that I'm complaining, it's noticably better than the pixelated crap my (analog) tivo produces.
        • I dumped cable after my internet (with too much lag to be effective on XBL) plus cable tv was $140. I went to DSL (slower, but less latency) for $35/month and OTA HD tv with a series 3 tivo. its' great. There are a few shows I kind of miss, but with a DVR, there's still enough on. I also wanted to get off the couch more, so i'm saving about $100/month and have gotten some free time back. I might do netflix in the winter.
    • Or just get all your broadcast channels in HD over the air for free. Or get a satellite. There are definitely options at this stage in the game. I'm on the phone canceling my account with Comcast as we speak. They didn't want to give me an HD DVR unless I was paying for one of their $50+ a month cable plans. Basic broadcast channels are fine for me, and now I'm getting them for free over the air.

      Sure I'm paying Tivo, but they're offering me DVR service, and I'd rather Tivo gets my cash than Comcast any

      • Re:If we had a smart government (Score:5, Insightful)

        by bcattwoo (737354) on Thursday August 23 2007, @12:47PM (#20332889)
        It's not a public utility, it's not using public property like the phone company

        Really? Do you have some sort of fancy cable-less cable company that doesn't rely on public rights-of-way and utility easements to get its product to its customers?
      • Tell me why it's not using public property like the phone company? Where I live, it's run on the same pole as the phone line. Cities cede monopolies to the cable companies in exchange for their wiring of the city. Sounds more or less like a public utility to me.

        Because of this monopoly the FCC stepped in to dictate that cable companies couldn't abuse their monopoly by only renting their own gear to consumers. The FCC mandated that the cable companies come up with a solution to letting consumer electronics

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by coryking (104614)
        At least here in Washington State, the city elects a "cable franchise" that is granted access to use the city's cable infrastructure. The city has an oversight board composed of citizens whose task is to make sure the cable company isn't screwing people.

        If you wanna change the system, at least here in Washington, your best bet is to lobby your city government.

  • Preemptive Counter Flame (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 23 2007, @11:56AM (#20332171)
    No doubt there will be countless "TiVo Sucks" comments. Usually by people who believe that building their own MythTV box (costing more than the price of an HD TiVo and 3 years of service) is better than paying a monthly or annual subscription to TiVo.

    Here's the rub. TiVo is powered by Linux. Every time you tell someone to build a MythTV instead of buying a TiVo, you're re-enforcing the argument that companies cannot be successful and use open source software. That's right. You always sit there as armchair CEO's and wax poetic about how running or selling open source software can be profitable... that companies can have a successful business model by selling services (i.e. Redhat). And yet when a company comes along with a service plan, using Linux as their OS, and selling an awesome product... you say that only a fool would pay subscription fees and try to spin your own.

    Thanks a lot folks.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by grasshoppa (657393)
      Ok, but here's the counter argument; MythTV and TiVo are two completely different products, each serving different needs. So while yes, myth does end up more expensive, you get far more for your money.

      In my specific case, I couldn't live without MythVideo. I have tons of videos stored on the thing, all accessible from the click of a button. Instead of having to hunt down the DVD, plop it into the machine and navigate the fucking ads and menus, I just click a button and watch the video. Last I heard, Ti

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by jollespm (641870)
        Actually, you can with a Series 2 TiVo. You have to have a Windows based computer to run the TiVo Desktop software (the Mac version won't stream, yet) and you dump your video files to a specific folder in mpeg2 format. Then, on the Tivo you can browse the host computer and pick what you want to watch. Depending on file size/resolution you can watch as is streams or wait a bit to cache enough of the file on the TiVo.

        I've never used any of the Myth stuff, so I can't say if it's any easier or harder.

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by Galaga88 (148206)
          Even better, with TiVo.net, it'll transcode non-MPEG2 files on the fly and stream them to your TiVo, so the issue of converting files beforehand is moot. There's a similar plugin that'll handle all your non MP3 music as well.
  • I've had the TiVo HD pretty much since the first week it came out. I've had a dual tuner TiVo in one form or another for the past few years so I was really excited when the new TiVo HD came out. However, I've been less than impressed with it.

    I love the TiVo software, it beats Comcast's DVR hands down, but there are technical limitations. For instance, there is a lot of random artifacting that occurs on digital channels. Even more annoying is the fact that the audio will drop out randomly at times. I

  • Reason: Cable Card 2.0 standards dispute (Score:5, Informative)

    by philam3nt (267961) on Thursday August 23 2007, @11:59AM (#20332209) Homepage
    This has been well known in the Tivo/Windows MCE/Non-Locked-in Cable-Box community for some time, and was blogged on engadget, which has a fantastic summary at Engadget: Cablecard 2.0 is ready [engadgethd.com] . However, knowing most of you won't RTFA:

    At this point you should be asking, what is stopping TiVo or Microsoft from creating two-way, multi-stream CableCARD devices? The answer is, some CE companies are not happy with the certification specification that CableLabs has decided on. As we previously discussed, the point of contention is the OCAP requirement...

    ...to put it in layman's terms, this would cut out the middle man, -- where the middle man is your cable company. With OCAP, TiVo couldn't deploy their software on a two-way host device without the cable company's approval, so the concept of going to the store and buying a TiVo that works anywhere wouldn't exist unless every cable company agreed to distribute and support TiVo's OCAP software -- this is how the long-awaited Comcast and TiVo agreement is going to work. The same might also be said for Vista Media Center, Microsoft would have to develop an OCAP VM in Vista Media Center and then work with each cable company to get them to deploy their user interface...

    ...In the end, we hope that the FCC steps in and requires CableLabs to certify two-way devices that do not require OCAP.


    Charles doublerebel.com
    • You'd think that with downloadable TV (appleTV, revision3, democracy, youtube, etc, etc) becoming a real threat, cable companies would actually want to embrace products people love. I have DirecTV and am stuck with the HR20 for HD. It is awful. I'm thinking that 60 bucks a month could go much further on Netflix and iTunes...

      It's not like it's going to take a lot to get customers to ditch time warner and/or comcast.... these companies are reviled.
      • Who's network will be distributing that content? Hint, for a lot of broadband users, it's their cable company.

        With net neutrality in contention and backbone infrastructure reaching capacity, how far is it of a stretch to assume that you won't see some kind of throttling of video content from a provider who's also trying to sell you their video service on the same wire? For ordinary people who just want their video to look good and get delivered when they want it, once their AppleTV or Netflix or whoever'
    • Just because a cable box is required to support OCAP doesn't mean that it has to only support OCAP, right? So TiVo should be able to build a box that has the native TiVo GUI and also allows users to view OCAPlets through a menu option. Maybe we should call it OCRAP.

  • CableCards (Score:3, Interesting)

    by iPaige (834088) on Thursday August 23 2007, @12:09PM (#20332321)
    Even when cablecards follow the standard it's a botched job 90% of the time. Here, read this article on OCUR. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/ocur [maximumpc.com] Microsofts own lead for the program couldn't assist in getting the cablecards working. Shipped by two of the best PC manufacturers in the business, and due to the backwards ass way it's setup, completely unusable on arrival, or with aide from the cable company / microsoft / whomever wants to try. If that's the future of Media Center PC's, I'd rather just get downloadable content.
  • They didn't want it from the get go, and they are going to do anything to insure that it dies. How dare the FCC tell them how to do business.

  • cablecards and company-provided STBs (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Icculus (33027) on Thursday August 23 2007, @12:15PM (#20332433)
    Weren't all the cable companies supposed to be using CableCards in their own new set top boxes by now? How are they handling this problem with those units?

    • Re:cablecards and company-provided STBs (Score:5, Informative)

      by Overzeetop (214511) on Thursday August 23 2007, @12:51PM (#20332941) Journal
      They use custom pre-release versions which work with their boxes. Just because TiVo won't make 100 custom boxes that only work with specific systems isnt' their fault, right? And deploying switched digital before the offical spec is complete is no big deal, right?

      If you want my opinion, the FCC should forbid any content provider from selling or leasing end-user equipment, and requiring that all providers use a common specification (we do it for OTA, why not cable?). As for my OTA comment - the FCC fucked that up, too. We should be watching 720p, period. If it weren't for all those mama's boy TV manufacturers who were so damned afraid of losing their interlaced teddy bears, we'd have been much better off.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Overzeetop (214511)
          The problem is that there are 18 different (ATSC) acceptable formats, and the result was years of delay and tons of poor products. I don't have any problems with sports on film, and that's only 24fps. Interlacing is a crutch of television technology, and the inabilityof 1950s technology to get horizontal refresh rates high enough to do progressive scanning. The problem is that the FCC decided to let the decision made by someone else - and the result has been two decades of poor results.

          I'd prefer they chose

    • In my case, Comcast replaced it with a used box. At least I get the channels I'm supposed to now.

      I really want to just ditch my cable box and replace it with a TiVo Series 3. But until this whole CableCard mess is sorted out, I'm not really willing to.

  • From the article:

    The stumbling blocks to the required two-way communications for supporting SDV natively on TiVo devices apparently have been cable company demands that certain of their (cable company) control software be running on the associated TiVo units themselves (something that TiVo has been unenthusiastic to permit)
    It appears that this might be an attempt by the cable companies to get stuff like DRM software installed on consumer's equipment.

      • On the other hand, the deployment of SDV is just rendering these tivos obsolete, unless there is a way to fix it through firmware they must be scrambling to build the Series 4.

        Well ... the nice part about the HD TiVos (and Series 3), is that they also include the ability to tune Over The Air, so they aren't exactly Obsolete.

        There has also been speculation that a back-chanel communication mechanism could be worked out (via the TiVo's internet connection), if the Cable Companies were willing.

        A Series 4 might

  • I would like to take this minute to extend my middle finger to both the FCC and every single person who works or owns stock in the cable and media industry. You people created a mess with this HDTV stuff and you all should be ashamed of yourself.

    At the present time, I *CANNOT* purchase a device that allows me to record shows I currently record in Hi-Def using my SageTV. Worse, I cannot even prove that last claim because there is no definitive list of channels the my local cable company broadcasts in th

  • To the Early Adapters... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Toonol (1057698) on Thursday August 23 2007, @01:13PM (#20333351)
    Thanks to all of you who are cutting edge, purchasing all these incompatible devices under the spectre of still-evolving standards. When I, and the rest of the world, follow in your footsteps three years from now, the process will be smooth and error-free because of your trials and tribulations.

    Seriously, I'm grateful for you guys. You take it on the chin so we don't have to.

  • Nothing New (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Cramer (69040) on Thursday August 23 2007, @02:16PM (#20334263) Homepage
    Nothing new to see here. SDV has been a problem for 3rd party cable hardware from the get-go. Tivo owners have been in this mess since the Series 3 was released A YEAR AGO. The only thing that's changed is the price for the Tivo HD... it's now cheap enough for some of the village idiots to aford one.

    As for the BS comments w.r.t. cablecard requirements... SDV isn't part of those requirements. And wouldn't matter if it did. All the products on the market (and there are things other than tivo's that cannot support SDV, btw) are UNIDIRECTIONAL devices. There are no certification paths for bidirectional devices. (partly because there's no set standard because the cable companies keep changing their mind.) SDV is 100% unnecessary. Cable companies have plenty of capacity if they drop analog cable entirely or even start using the parts that no longer carry stations. (TW/Raleigh has room for ~40 HD stations above the analog broadcasts. That number goes up every year as they reduce the analog tier.)

    The reason SDV exists -- and, btw, it was created by Time Warner and Scientific Atlanta -- is to subvert the cablecard mandate and attempt to push back the "integration ban" that took effect (finally) July 1. It's the difference between "spirit" and "letter". However, as SDV is linked in the UDCP license, there may yet be a loophole to their loophole. But I'm pretty sure no cableco will go along with it -- they're doing a bang up job keeping cablecards from working properly in the first place.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Animats (122034)
      Huh?

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        What can't understand the long run on sentences some people type I can't believe your not with times you needto figure out comprehension abit even words missing will do.

    • These devices have been crippled by the cable industry's obsession with controlling their content.

      They need to give up and accept that no matter how hard they lock it down, someone's going to post torrents of all their hit shows. They might as well give us a functioning solution to decode their content, instead of the joke that is CableCard.

      • Re:Control (Score:5, Informative)

        by Pentavirate (867026) on Thursday August 23 2007, @03:35PM (#20335281) Homepage Journal
        This actually isn't due to the cable companies' greed. There are several layers of software on a cable box. There's the firmware, Guide programming (ie TV Guide), and any additional software features like VOD software on top of that. The cable company doesn't write any of it. It's the incompatibility of the software that's the issue. For things like VOD and PPV and now SDV, third party companies provide video servers, the servers that interact directly with the set-top boxes and software that is on each set-top box that does all of the communication back and forth. CableCard 2 is a mandated standard on how this communication must take place so that other cable boxes with the cards can be used in lieu of the cable companies boxes. CableCard 2 covers VOD and PPV but SDV is new and so it doesn't cover it.

        Cable companies aren't implementing SDV just to make it difficult for companies like TIVO. SDV is a tremendous way to better utilize the available bandwidth. SDV allows a cable channel in a network segment that isn't getting watched to not be broadcast until someone tunes into the channel. This makes channels completely dynamic instead of being associated with a specific frequency. This will allow cable companies to use a fraction of the bandwidth to provide channels than they use now. They can then use that extra bandwidth for additional channels or broadband.

        I was a set-top box developer for one of these third party VOD companies and I was associated with the SDV demo we put together to pitch to some cable companies. Since there is no standard, we do it the best way we know how that works with our system. So there really isn't a conspiracy here. Just companies trying to do business as cost-effective as possible with standards and governmental organizations just trying to keep up.
    • If CableCARDs don't work well, it's the Cable Cartel's fault. CableLABS is the cable industry's R&D outfit. They came up with CableCARD to satisfy the FCCs mandate that third-party equipment be interoperable with the cable system. The consumer is being shafted by a combination of the cable industry's greed, and the FCCs unwillingness to stand up to them.

    • Re:When will people ever learn? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Kirby (19886) on Thursday August 23 2007, @01:53PM (#20333903) Homepage
      Yeah, I hear some people are using this new Linux thing, but Windows 3.1 works just fine!

      Seriously, there's a substantial gap between features between the two devices, including:

      * Ability to record high definition on the TiVo (VCRs are very poor quality, which is easily noticeable, especially on modern televisions). Ability to record good quality of non-high def shows as well. The new boxes even record 5.1 sound.
      * Ease of repeated recording of favorite shows
      * Ability for device to know the difference between first run and rerun
      * Ease of delete without subsequent quality loss
      * Not taking up valuable space with stacks of videotapes
      * Ability to auto-record based on keywords (Particularly nice for sports fans), directors, actors, and such.
      * Auto-fill of space with shows you like. Seems small, but I _always_ have two or three Simpsons and Buffys sitting around, so I don't end up watching Home Improvement on a slow Sunday when I want to veg.
      * Ability to record two things at once.
      * Ability to watch something recorded while recording up to two live shows.
      * Ability to pause, rewind, and fast forward 'live' tv. Very nice if the phone rings, or if nature calls!
      * Ability to auto correct for schedule changes. No more losing track of a show when Fox moves it to Saturdays, or miss the last 10 minutes of Lost because it's a 70 minute episode! This is not a small feature. Tivo has an excellent track record at being on top of this kind of thing.

      Now, there are downsides, mostly in the cost department, but if you consider television to be a hobby, I highly recommend tivo. (If you think TV is a waste of time, and are reading this thread, well, is trolling really a better use of time than tv? Honestly.) Other DVRs provide most of these features, and are better than a VCR, but Tivo still has the best featureset. Hopefully, they'll work out these cutting-edge-technology stumbles in a way that's good for current consumers. (But I've had the original HD box for almost a year and never had any problems.)

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by cadfael (103180)
      (as usual, in a cable discussion, I put my flame proof underwear on....)

      Its a little more interesting than that. I am actually a Cable guy who does design for products in MSO (cable company) networks. You are essentially facing two folks who hold the keys to the kingdom, SA and Motorola. The DRM (conditional access in our world, or CAS) is proprietary. FCC mandates that the CAS be separable (as of July this year). Moto and SA complied by providing CableCards. They did not mandate that the two way services b

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