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The Wiimote As Yoda Intended - A Lightsaber

Posted by Zonk on Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:55 AM
from the not-as-clumsy-or-random-as-a-blaster dept.
An anonymous reader writes "So what if the Wii can't handle the awesome 'next-generation' physics engine the other consoles will enjoy when Star Wars: The Force Unleashed is released? LucasArts announced today that Krome Studios is developing a version of the game for the Nintendo console, and players will finally get to use the Wiimote for its intended purpose — as a lightsaber. 'The sword-swinging action will be exclusive to the Wii version, and even then, it will only be available in an exclusive "duel mode." The description in the release says that this duel mode will be a multiplayer affair.'"
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[+] Hardware: Wiimote as Multi-Touch Display Controller 107 comments
Tmack writes "While hard-hacks with the Wiimote are somewhat old news, this particular implementation is quite interesting. Using the infrared camera on the Wiimote, pens with LEDs instead of ink, and an LCD projector, Johnny Chung Lee of Carnegie Mellon University has created software to use them as a (relatively) cheap multi-touch display. Any surface onto which you can project becomes an interactive multi-touch display, as demonstrated in the video at the link. He has the software available for download, along with some other neat projects. Lee has also documented another impressive Wiimote hack.
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  • by cyphercell (843398) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @11:58AM (#20669457) Homepage Journal
    to welcome our wiimote toting sith overlords.
  • Avast! (Score:5, Funny)

    by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday September 19 2007, @11:59AM (#20669471) Homepage Journal

    players will finally get to use the Wiimote for its intended purpose -- as a lightsaber. 'The sword-swinging action will be exclusive to the Wii version, and even then, it will only be available in an exclusive "duel mode." The description in the release says that this duel mode will be a multiplayer affair.'"

    Arrr! I be thinking it be more fun to have an actual lightsabre, be it plastic I don't be carin', with the Wii controller attached some way, so ye be hackin' and slashin' (and no small bit o' swashbucklin'!) to the dulcet tones of sommon bellowin' 'Hey, you could poke an eye out with that thing!'

    We be needing cutlasses and some fing piratin' adventures, too. oX|P-)

    • force feedback (Score:5, Insightful)

      by redcaboodle (622288) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:09PM (#20669625)
      How do you get force feedback on those things?
      You'll never know if you hit something. I'm a sword fencer (2 kg bastard sword) and the experience is much more tactile then visual. Even if you consider that light sabres are much lighter than a real sword and don't have bars to protect your hand I doubt if fencing with a light sabre wii control will live up tu the experience of real fencing - even if it's just for show.
      • Re:force feedback (Score:5, Insightful)

        by eln (21727) * on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:16PM (#20669767) Homepage
        A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either. I think the tactile feedback would probably be little more than it would be if one were slicing a hot knife through butter. So, fencing with a light saber in any context would not "live up to" the experience of real fencing because the weapons involved are too different.

        Having said that, they could provide some sort of little vibration plus a sound coming from the Wiimote's speaker to simulate impact. Even in a simple game like Wii Sports, the baseball game provides some feedback (a noise coming from the Wiimote itself) to simulate when the bat makes contact with the ball, and that actually is enough to make it feel at least somewhat real if you're absorbed in the game. It really is amazing how much more "real" it feels when the sound from the strike is actually coming from the implement in your hand rather than from the speaker on your TV.

        I think they can make this work. The Wiimote has surprising heft for something of its size, and that plus the speaker and the vibrations make it feel far more realistic than you might expect by looking at it.
        • A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either. I think the tactile feedback would probably be little more than it would be if one were slicing a hot knife through butter. So, fencing with a light saber in any context would not "live up to" the experience of real fencing because the weapons involved are too different.

          Arr! I be proposin' an ele

        • Re:force feedback (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Luyseyal (3154) <swaters@luyBOYSEN.info minus berry> on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:22PM (#20669853) Homepage
          Of course, lightsabers stop when they contact each other...

          -l
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either.

          The way you say this, it sounds like its from personal experience...

          Besides the GP poster was likely talking about feedback when your opponent parries with his lightsaber. Its unlikely that he was referring to the tactile feedback of when his sword slices through people. If he was, it wouldn't be wise to argue with him.

        • A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either.

          But I don't think anyone is asking to feel cutting through somebody's neck. This isn't Postal 3 we're talking about.

          You want to feel when your sword hits the other, when your opponent pushes against you, when you have to block because you were blocked and can feel your opponent moving his sword to counter. With a wiimote the light saber will go through anyway and you have to just watch the screen to know. In any case getting a hit on the body will probably count as a point right away, instead of having to

        • Re:force feedback (Score:5, Interesting)

          by jollyreaper (513215) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @01:26PM (#20670839)

          A Jedi can slice through a person with a light saber with no perceptible change to the momentum of the saber, so it seems likely that there is not a whole lot of tactile feedback in a "real" light saber either. I think the tactile feedback would probably be little more than it would be if one were slicing a hot knife through butter. So, fencing with a light saber in any context would not "live up to" the experience of real fencing because the weapons involved are too different.
          There's also zero weight in the blade. If we did have such things as lightsabers, I think experienced fencers would have a lot of unlearning to do in order to get a feel for them. With no blade weight, a lightsaber would move faster than your fastest lightest swords, rapiers would be pokey in comparison. Additionally, the lightsaber is exceptional for stabbing and slashing whereas real life swords tend to have to pick one or the other as a compromise. The lack of a crossguard should also be a huge problem since I can't imagine there would be much friction with two blades sliding against each other, one would think that a downward strike could slide down a lightsaber right into the defender's hands.

          I thought the "dropping the lightsaber through the floor" gag on Robot Chicken was hysterical because I had that same debate with other kids in elementary school.

          But back to the topic at hand, I can't imagine trying to do lightsaber combat in a video game with anything other than a motion-sensitive controller like the Wii has. I've never encountered any sort of video game swordfighting system that properly simulated what it would be like to realistically cross swords. My only question is how they're going to simulate the footwork. You're not just standing in one spot beating at the other guy with a lightsaber, you would be moving around and trying not to get boxed in.
            • Re:force feedback (Score:4, Informative)

              by e4g4 (533831) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @05:13PM (#20673691)
              In order for a stabbing motion to be truly effective in a combat situation, it has to be either very fast and unexpected, or easily redirected to slip by an opponents parry. The heavier the blade, the more difficult it is to change the direction of the point, and the easier it is to defend against a thrust. You can stab with almost any sword, but the heavier the sword is, the less useful the thrust becomes as a primary attack - with a rapier, the thrust can be very difficult to avoid (because in the process of the thrust, one can do devious feints and changes in direction), whereas with weapons with heavy, broad blades, slashing is far more effective as a means to put one's opponent in a position where they won't be able to avoid the slower, more direct thrust that the heavier blade makes.

              The problem is that you really can't strike a balance (even the sword you describe, and assuming we're talking about period materials) because any blade that can withstand repeated lateral blows will be too heavy to achieve the speed necessary for an effective thrusting attack.
      • Re:force feedback (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Luyseyal (3154) <swaters@luyBOYSEN.info minus berry> on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:18PM (#20669791) Homepage

        > How do you get force feedback on those things?

        Uhhhh by using the built-in functionality [wikipedia.org] of the Wiimote? That said, yes, it's just a vibration, but that vibration can tell you to stop wasting energy swinging through, etc.

        -l

      • by CheeseTroll (696413) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:56PM (#20670403)
        How do you get force feedback on those things?

        You feel the force through The Force, young padawan!
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        It's not like the wiimote is being tracked in 3 space with 6 degrees of freedom. You can't map the game lightsaber position to the position of the wiimote as you are holding it.

        Not sure if this is a joke or not, but yes, the Wiimote is tracked in 3D space. The Wiimote uses the sensor-bar (a bar containing multiple infrared beacons that you place on top of, or underneath, the TV) to determine its approximate location, and sends this information back using Bluetooth to the Wii. The only issue with this is

  • It's not the size of your swartz but what you can do with it!
  • Waggle? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nutznboltz2003 (832752) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:00PM (#20669505) Homepage
    So will the rest of the game rely on poorly coded waggle controls to get by? I like the concept, but this has got to be hard to code, and if it is not handled correctly, we are only going to end up with another crappy Star Wars game. Instead of giving us Wii owners bad ports with waggle controls added, I think LucasArts has two options. 1) Make sure the controls work, and work well. 2) Stop the bad ports, and give us updated versions of classic LucasArts games, like Monkey Island, Maniac Mansion, and others.
  • Finally (Score:4, Interesting)

    by loafing_oaf (1054200) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:02PM (#20669525) Homepage

    This is a great move, but it still treats the Wii as an afterthought, with a unique multiplayer module tacked on to the core game. I'll still be pining for a real lightsaber game.

  • How about 2 sabers? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DoofusOfDeath (636671) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:04PM (#20669549)
    Both the nunchucks and the normal Wii remote have a motion sensor.

    Sure, using the nunchuck to use the Force is a cool idea, but being able to play as Darth Maul has its attraction as well.
  • by Penguinisto (415985) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:06PM (#20669595) Journal
    ...lightsabers aside, it gives me an idea:

    How long before something similar could be put to use on a PC, for 3D/CG manipulation?

    /P

  • A killer ap? I think so.
  • by Rooked_One (591287) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:09PM (#20669645) Journal
    Ok... ignore that... Seriously - how will it handle? Any Wii owner will tell you they were very disapointed with Red Steel, so is the light saber action only going to have 3 or so programmed swings or is it going to be 100% interactive?

    That is what will make this "cool".
    • or is it going to be 100% interactive?
      If, as I hope it to be, it is 100% interactive, will you be able to kill your own character by tilting the wiimote towards you?
    • by UbuntuDupe (970646) * on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:42PM (#20670145) Journal
      First, a minor quibble: I wasn't disappointed with Red Steel. While it didn't do what I feel was promised, the swordfighting was overall pretty cool because of how you could block. It was almost instinctive, so it allowed for better reaction times.

      As for what the Wii's capable of: they really have a lot of room to innovate here that unfortunately hasn't been explored:

      -It could largely solve the 1-1 motion matching problem by having the Wii detect vertical tilt as it normally does (w/ accelerometer) and horizontal motion with the pointer. If your Wiimote loses sight of the sensor bar, it can just bring your saber back in at the next place it does detect it. There is quite a wide detection angle to begin with.

      -When sabers collide, make either the player push himself back (as represented by his onscreen view), or the opponent bounce backward, or some of both, so that your living-room Wiimote position, despite having "gone through" where the opponent's saber should be, is still consistent with what he sees on the screen.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        Check out WarioWare on the Wii. One of the bosses is a sword fight. You're mainly parrying with an attack at the end, but it follows your motion really well.
  • by aapold (753705) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:11PM (#20669687) Homepage Journal
    The logistics of lightsabers always intrigued me... some possibilities:

    - How fast can they turn off and back on? By timing it right you could bypass a parry but turning it off...

    - Lightsabre trap... to stop others from using it, make it look like the other end is the business end.

    - While most other forms seem silly (especially the two-ended staff), putting it on a long pole would be of definite advantage in some situations. But why stop there? Can you imagine a pair of light-sabre nunchuku? HOw about a garden rake with one stuck on the end? Or why not a boomerang with twin-sabre action that turns them on a few seconds after it leaves your hand, then back off when it returns... the possibilities are endless..

    • by MyLongNickName (822545) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:15PM (#20669741) Journal
      You realize it was just a movie, right?
    • - While most other forms seem silly (especially the two-ended staff), putting it on a long pole would be of definite advantage in some situations. But why stop there? Can you imagine a pair of light-sabre nunchuku? HOw about a garden rake with one stuck on the end? Or why not a boomerang with twin-sabre action that turns them on a few seconds after it leaves your hand, then back off when it returns... the possibilities are endless..

      geek: Oh wait wait! How about this! You know how Shredder has those blades all over and they're like sharper than katanas? How about this: he's got lightsaber emitters instead! He fires them up and he's a walking wall of death!

      observer: You do realize that your uber-cool jedi ninja now looks like a walking Las Vegas neon sign?

      geek: No, but think of the possibilities!

      observer: Yeah. If he altered the color of the different blades he could pass for Rainbow Brite's dad.

      geek: *stiffles sob* You asshole...

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      Can you imagine a pair of light-sabre nunchuku?

      That's an excellent trap! Just persuade the other guy to use it, and he'll dismember himself without any further help from you.

      • If I was a Jedi, I'd have about two dozen, and they'd all surround me in some kind of deadly sphere of force-controlled prescient deflection dance.

        Darth Traya, is that you?

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          If you read the actual William Gibson short story, (and forget about the crappy movie) you'll know that it wasn't a "laser rope" it was a monomolecular filament, which makes a whole lot more sense than the movie rendition.

          Larry Niven's protagonists sometimes make use of a similar weapon - a monofilament wire wrapped in a stasis field to hold it rigid. In other words, a lightsaber with marginally more plausible physics :-)

  • Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)

    by hellfire (86129) <deviladv@@@thedevilsadvocate...org> on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:14PM (#20669727) Homepage
    "I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic computer adventure like your father did. It's your father's WiiMote. This is the weapon of a Wii Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a Joystick, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Wii Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the PS3."
    • "I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic computer adventure like your father did. It's your father's WiiMote. This is the weapon of a Wii Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a Joystick, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Wii Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the PS3."

      Awesome. So now I get to be on of the Knights Who Play Wii. Bring me a shrubbery, bitch!

  • Tacked on (Score:4, Informative)

    by Telvin_3d (855514) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:15PM (#20669749)
    So, what they are actually saying is that they are adding a tacked on, last minute, third party mode. Then they are going to point to it and say "see we gave everyone what they were yelling for" and when no one is happy with it LucasArts is going to be all smug and start talking about how it shows the Wii was not a viable platform to start with. It is no secret that LucasArts hasn't been a big fan of the Wii because of the less powerful graphics. This is more of a slap in the face than a real attempt to port it to the Wii.
    • Have you ever, ever heard of "Take what you can get"? I don't give a damn if it is tacked on, this feature has the potential to be truly amazing. If you blast a cool feature into oblivion because it's "tacked-on", don't blame LucasArts for not putting the work into developing a more fleshed-out version, blame yourself for causing them to think there's no interest.
  • As a Swordsman... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SwordsmanLuke (1083699) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:17PM (#20669771)
    I wonder how they've approached making this work. Physics of swordplay aside, sword fighting is not easy. (Hint, *real* swordfighting doesn't look like the movies, and you can't pick it up in a couple afternoons swinging sticks at your friends.) If their simulation of sword movements is true to how each player is swinging their Wiimote, I think people may get frustrated very quickly by the fact that they're going to suck. On the other hand, if the controls are simplified to allow a preset handful of attacks, I wonder how much depth they can provide to the game.
  • by Applekid (993327) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:32PM (#20669975)
    Anyone else slightly disturbed how how closely the copy in TFS follows the write up at Kotaku [kotaku.com]?

    I mean, it links to Next-Gen which is fine, but if your summary lifts more than 50% of the phrases word-for-word, maybe you should be linking that, too.
  • by xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @12:35PM (#20670023)
    I always thought a wiffle ball bat worked fine for a light saber. Then again, I was about 8 the last time Star Wars seemed interesting.
  • Oblig youtube (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BlueParrot (965239) on Wednesday September 19 2007, @02:22PM (#20671509)
    • Wondering if Wii supports 4 remotes? I'm sure this isn't built into the functionality of the game, but hey it can't stop me from "dueling myself".

      General Grievous, is that you?