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Airlines Have to Ask Permission to Fly 72 Hours Early
Journal written by twitter (104583) and posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Fri Oct 12, 2007 02:24 PM
from the papers-papers-please dept.
from the papers-papers-please dept.
twitter wrote to mention that the TSA (Transport Security Administration) has released a new set of proposed rules that is raising quite a stir among groups ranging from the ACLU to the American Society of Travel Agents. Under the new rules airlines would be required to submit a passenger manifest (including full name, sex, date of birth, and redress number) for all flights departing, arriving, or flying over the United States at least 72 hours prior to departure. Boarding passes will only be issued to those passengers that have been cleared. "Hasbrouck submitted that requiring clearance in order to travel violates the US First Amendment right of assembly, the central claim in John Gilmore's case against the US government over the requirement to show photo ID for domestic travel. [...] ACLU's Barry Steinhardt quoted press reports of 500,000 to 750,000 people on the watch list (of which the no-fly list is a subset). 'If there are that many terrorists in the US, we'd all be dead.' TSA representative Kip Hawley noted that the list has been carefully investigated and halved over the last year. 'Half of grossly bloated is still bloated,' Steinhardt replied."
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IT: DHS Plans Changes in Air Passenger Screening 154 comments
narramissic writes "The Department of Homeland Security on Thursday announced plans to revamp its Secure Flight program, with the agency no longer assigning risk scores to passengers or using predictive behavior technology. In addition, the Transportation Security Administration, part of DHS, will have direct control of checking domestic passenger lists against terrorist watch lists, instead of the airlines, said DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff. Just the same Marc Rotenberg, executive director of privacy advocacy group the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), notes, air passengers still can't see the reasons why they're targeted for extensive searches or kept off flights, nor can they correct bad information on the terrorist watch lists. 'The problems with the watch list are still valid and are not going away,' said Rotenberg."
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say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
They're really gonna expect people to get cleared 72 hours in advance to go to their mother's funeral (to pick an example)?
Well, I guess they (TPTB at the TSA) continue to demonstrate how utterly clueless they are.
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Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep - totally clueless. And before someone suggests it, I should not have to provide the government a REASON why I want to travel on a moment's notice. We should not have to make exceptions for something so wrong.
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Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Funny)
You should have visited your parents frequently in order to avoid such last minute travel plans. Visiting your loved ones frequently builds stronger families.
Thank you,
TSA Rep
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Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Informative)
"The right to travel is a part of the 'liberty' of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. If that "liberty" is to be regulated, it must be pursuant to the law-making functions of the Congress. . . . . Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values."
If we cannot see the "watch lists", then there is no way for us to challenge our presence on such a list. That in my opinion is taking away someone's right to travel without due process.
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Re:say goodbuy (Score:5, Insightful)
but they did manage to sneak in additional papers-please wording:
It's still bad, and hasslesome, and invasive of privacy, but not outright bullet-in-foot material.
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Requirement is 30 min before flight (Score:5, Informative)
Hardly the ball-buster everyone is making it out to be.
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Re:Requirement is 30 min before flight (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, either A. the TSA really needs three days for clearance because they do hand checking, or B. they do an automated check and don't need that time. Let's examine each case.
If it really takes 72 hours to check someone out thoroughly, then they can't realistically let people be added to flights after that. Otherwise, the terrorists will just book at the last minute and will be checked more quickly and will have a much greater chance of getting missed in the rush.
If it doesn't really take 72 hours to check somebody out, then the TSA is just bullying the airlines into doing extra work, thus raising the cost of travel for everybody with no actual benefit.
I fail to see the upside here.
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Re:Requirement is 30 min before flight (Score:5, Insightful)
The upside is it helps break the expectation of freedom and get people used to the idea that every action must be pre-cleared by the government, which reduces the probability of strenuous objection to future intrusive policies.
Admittedly, though, that's only an "upside" from a certain perspective.
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Your payperz, plezz (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Your payperz, plezz (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Your payperz, plezz (Score:5, Funny)
Answer A: They're working on fixing that too.
Answer B: Aloha.
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Re:Your payperz, plezz (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Your payperz, plezz (Score:5, Interesting)
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oh boy (Score:5, Insightful)
I can see it now! (Score:5, Funny)
Civil Protest Idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
This proposal is DOA. (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently the TSA has forgotten that this is America and we go where we like when we like and how we like (unless we're in prison, of course) without Uncle Sam knowing where we are. Like the commercial says, " we are free to move about the country."
Missed flights? (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine being stuck 3 days before you can go home.
Don't worry folks (Score:5, Funny)
This is just what Bin Laden wants (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure bin Laden is laughing in his cave right now. He's used a classic martial arts move -- using the strength of the opponent against the opponent. Bin Laden wants to the isolate the U.S. from the world and the TSA is doing a great job of that.
Load of fear-mongering crap (Score:5, Informative)
I remember in the 90's when the Secret Service first started closing off traffic near the White House. The easy North/South move on the West side got bogged down from the traffic problems: Penn Ave N of the White House is shut down; E Street S. of the White House is shut down. There is now an area of eight blocks where you can't go West without going North, or South. Under Clinton, the street got opened - for about a week until some bombing far away.
It's not that I object to security. It's just I object to security that pushes attacks onto innocents & away from those who "incited" the attacks in the first place.
I also remember being able to get onto planes without any time consuming security screening. Now we have to wait for everything to be checked forever. The screening does not make us any more secure*, it just takes longer.
Go big propaganda fear-mongering! we didn't need the free time to get to anywhere anyhow. If we did, we'd all be rich enough to have our own planes.
*: The airline screening does not really make us more secure, as there are still ways to get shit on a plane: Metal Detectors test for guns sold in the US, not guns sold outside the US with lower metal content. Or Ceramic guns. Or Knives without metal (say those nice expensive Kyoceria ceramic knives).
If you like: 2/3rds of a passenger planes cargo is other than passengers and their baggage: It's Air Freight packages. Those packages could easily hold a bomb. Or a passenger could check a bomb with a wireless control that can be carried in the cabin.
the only thing that has been done in the name of security that makes planes more secure was making real security doors on the Pilot's compartment.
I'll Defund TSA, if Elected. (Score:5, Insightful)
Send a Message - Don't Fly (Score:5, Insightful)
If I ever win the lottery, I guess I'm outta luck (Score:5, Interesting)
What? I have to know three days in advance everywhere I want to go?
Shit.
I guess I'll just have to dream about having enough money to have my own Gulfstream, since once you get to that level of wealth, the rules that apply to the little people are no longer a problem.
FUD - can transmit data up to 30 min before flight (Score:5, Informative)
"Additionally, for reservations made within 72 hours of scheduled flight departure time, covered aircraft operators would be required to transmit Secure Flight Passenger Data as soon as possible."
The TSA is just asking airlines to send what they have 72 hours prior to the flight, so they can correct false alarms earlier and do a better job of identifying problems.
RTFPDF.
Sounds good to me.
I REFUSE to be afraid (Score:5, Insightful)
I refuse to be afraid of this. I refuse to support any measure that would protect me 1% more if it took away my rights. This does that. I refuse to live my life afraid of dying when it takes me 2 hours to get through airline security when it should take 20minutes max.
I don't travel by plane at all anymore because of this. I go to Canada once per year and now I HAVE to get a passport because of paranoid people.
Stop being afraid, start defending your rights or we're going to end up needing permission to travel between states.
500,000 to 750,000 Terrorists in The US? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are 300M people in the US. Are you seriously telling me that at least 1 in 600 is on a terrorist watch list?
Something tells me that getting onto a terrorist watch list involves something other than being a terrorist. Otherwise, this just doesn't make any sense.
Re:500,000 to 750,000 Terrorists in The US? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
So it takes 3 days to look a name up in a database (Score:5, Interesting)
What century are we living in?
1 hour before boarding is reasonable. Allows data entry and organization for response.
Anything more is just a sloppy system.
Get over it. The terrorists have won. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact remains that the very thing we keep hearing those 'trrists' hate, freedom, is essentially dead in this country. For all the talk of how we're supposedly spreading freedom to an occupied country, it's just that, talk, since this administration is hell bent on destroying those very same freedoms in this country.
Between this newest revelation to track when people go on flights, requiring a national ID card, listening to our phone conversations without a warrant to preventing people from paying their bills [shns.com] until the source of their money is ok'd, we no longer live in a truly free society.
Oh sure, I can write this without fear of being arrested, but can I go on a flight without being classified as a threat? What does the file the FBI (and at least one other three-letter agency) have on me (and they do) say?
Bin Laden and his cohorts are probably laughing* in their cave at how they've succeeded in their first goal of undermining our society. How many times a week do we hear about law enforcement going into apoplectic seizures when someone thinks they saw some shifty character hanging around somewhere or an innocent package left behind shuts down some place?
It's a sad state of affairs when the people of this country don't care that their right to be free has been taken away from them. After all, there's those un-reality shows to watch. That the people who only a decade or so ago were crowing about how America is the greatest country on the planet, with all kinds of freedoms not enjoyed by many other countries, are now so willing to go along with this administration's excuses about why the rights enshrined in the Constitution must be taken away to protect them.
The quote about give them an inch and they'll take a mile certainly applies to this administration. Even worse, whoever comes into power next won't have the balls to undo the vast majority of wrongs being perpetrated against society but will instead be more concerned about getting re-elected than serving the people.
The rights of the Constitution had a good run of what, over two hundred years? Not bad all things considered. Now though, we are moving into a new era which will require citizens to involuntarily give up rights which have existed since the founding of the country in an effort to defeat terrorism. It will be a long, never-ending battle but by giving up our rights and acquiescing to the newest form a facist police-like-state, we can be assured that we will be safe and secure in our wiretapped, surveillanced, dwellings.
* I'm assuming that like most leaders, the rules they want to impose on others does not apply to them
This could be great news for Rail Travel (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Shit like this will cripple America...
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Too bad for derieved relatives (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like time to write to Congress.
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I hate to throw a brink in the arguement... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, its still bullshit, without a doubt. But its NOT going to stop last-minute fliers from being able to fly.
And again, its not that this isn't complete horseshit, but they're already passing your infromation to the TSA - they're just doing it within 15 minutes of departure now (or 15 minutes after departure for international flights).
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forget about back in the day... (Score:5, Interesting)
I can tell you that in many business cases there is absolutely NO WAY that this proposal is workable. People MUST be able to make travel plans up to and including the day of departure. 3 days is just not workable and the business community simply would not tolerate implementation of this proposal.
There are also far to many last-minute trips made on compassionate grounds. What about flights arranged to see dying loved ones, or to transport donor organs, or to get special treatment at a distant hospital? Hell, you can get a passport faster than 72 hours under normal cases for such reasons. If your identity can be verified well enough to get a passport that quickly then clearing you for a flight should be much easier than that.
Three days? That'll never fly. MAYBE three HOURS, but not three days.
It goes beyond that though--the same proposal not only wants lists for all flights arriving or departing US locations, it wants flight lists for ALMOST EVERY FLIGHT THAT PASSED OVER US AIRSPACE as well...which means they'd like the government to demand passenger lists from Canadian and Mexican airlines for many of their flights that never touch American soil. Not enough to violate their own civil liberties--in the name of safety everyone's liberties must be unduly curtailed.
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Interesting)
With apologies in advance to Jonathan Swift [art-bin.com], I think this is a great idea. But I'd go one step further. One could just as easily have driven a Ryder truck filled with explosives and put it under the World Trade Center. In fact, terrorists tried that once, and it almost worked. I feel strongly that we should be required to have a 72 hour screening period before renting a vehicle. Of course, if your car breaks down and you need a rental, you should have joined the "trusted driver" program ahead of time. We should also require such a screening before you can buy a car. After all, terrorists spent thousands of dollars on explosives for that truck, so what's another few thousand to buy or lease a car? I think you can see how important it is that only trusted patriotic Americans be allowed to purchase an automobile.
Further, automobiles only provide the casing for the bomb. We should have similar levels of trust for people purchasing bomb-making supplies. For example, we should require a minimum of a 7 day waiting period and appropriate security screening prior to purchasing fertilizer, as you can easily use that to make a bomb. Don't forget gasoline, either. We need at least a 72 hour screening period before you can fill up at the pump. People who need to fill up quickly should trade their privacy rights as part of our "trusted gas purchaser" program.
But that's not the biggest problem we face. The fundamental truth is that terrorists are people. None of these problems would exist if people prone to terrorist actions were not allowed to be born. For this reason, I would like to recommend a mandatory DNA screening prior to giving birth to children. Any children with terroristic tendencies should not be allowed to be carried to term. As an added bonus, these aborted fetuses can be used for scientific research, and in some cases, can be repurposed as a healthy food source for our nation's underprivileged.
I hope by this point you realize that this entire post is satire. My purpose in writing it is to show just how silly the argument of prescreening for aircraft flights in the name of national security really is. While I can't see the U.S. government actually going so far as suggesting that we eat babies to protect against terrorism, we are rapidly approaching that level of absurdity in our national security policy. I think it is time that we all take a step back, breathe, then laugh out loud at these policies at every possible opportunity. Only through laughter can we adequately portray the current administration and its policies as the laughingstock that they are.
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
We should just mark all patriotic Am3rican$ with a simple mark. Something simple like...oh, I dunno', maybe a six, three score, and six.
Without this mark, no one would be allowed to travel. Besides curtailing the nefarious schemes of terrorists it would also help with the large immigration problem. In time, as the populace surrendered to the most excellent goals of this process, it could easily be extended to other activities such as the buying and selling of goods.
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What useability - in fact, what security? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Deaths in the U.S. in 2001 due to
heart disease - 700,000
cancer - 553,800
stroke - 164,000
accidents - 102,000 (Car accidents - 42,000)
influenza - 36,000
terrorism - 3,000
Where is the war on cancer, or the war on drunk driving? You're more likely to die driving to the airport than on the plane.
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the hell are you trying to make excuses for the terrorists? You're no true patriot. We can only hope that in a few years, spreading misinformation like this will be outlawed.
When I was a kid, 20 years ago, my world view was that the only country in the world where people would be stopped because of their papers and turned back with no reason, - was the Sovjet Union and its vassal states.
Submit my name 3 days before travel and maybe be refused on short notice? Sovjet. Hearing stories about small issues in immigration escalating and you ending up being sent back? Sovjet.
You're still a good country. Please don't become a bad one...
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Funny)
And we should back that up with a 72 hour waiting period before stealing a vehicle that could be used to transport a bomb.
We can beat this terrorism thing if we just pull together.
(Maybe if we keep this up, the terrorists will find our antics so entertaining that they will decide to keep us around for a while).
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Funny)
Hence the entertainment value (watching the women scream in horror as the Slashdotters walk on).
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Re:Back in the day when I was the young guy (Score:5, Informative)
Only because they didn't place it very well.
To quote from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3069653/ [msn.com]: On February 26, 1993, the World Trade Center merely shook but did not collapse. But it was a close call. Later, the WTC's architect would tell jurors that if the van had been left closer to the poured concrete foundations, they would have succeeded. The tower would have fallen.
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Re:Sensationalist Headline (Score:5, Insightful)
The point is that now is the time for feedback. You can't give feedback on something you don't know about.
Say, you don't work for the government do you? Sure don't want those pesky private citizens allowed to influence potential new regulations or laws that affect them, right? I mean the NERVE of some people - thinking that the government works for the citizens...
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Re:Attention America ... (Score:5, Funny)
>
>Go fuck yourselves.
>
>Sincerely, the rest of the world.
Attention, rest of the world.
As you can plainly see by this article, we're doing precisely that.
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