Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Must a CD Cost $15.99?

Posted by kdawson on Tue Mar 25, 2008 02:39 PM
from the selling-partner-who-does-not-care dept.
scionite0 sends us to Rolling Stone for an in-depth article on Wal-Mart and the music business. Wal-Mart is the largest music retailer selling "an estimated one out of every five major-label albums" in the US. Wal-Mart willingly loses money selling CDs for less than $10 in order to draw customers into the store, but they are tired of taking a loss on CDs. The mega-retailer is telling the major record labels to lower the price of CDs or risk losing retail space to DVDs and video games. (Scroll to the bottom of the article for a breakdown of where exactly the money goes on a $15.99 album sale.) "[A Wal-Mart spokesman said:] 'The record industry needs to refine their business models, because the consumer is the ultimate arbitrator. And the consumer feels music isn't properly priced.' [While music executives are quoted:] 'While Wal-Mart represents nearly twenty percent of major-label music sales, music represents only about two percent of Wal-Mart's total sales. If they got out of selling music, it would mean nothing to them. This keeps me awake at night.' [And another:] 'Wal-Mart has no long-term care for an individual artist or marketing plan, unlike the specialty stores, which were a real business partner. At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space.'"
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Apple Is Now the #1 US Music Retailer 251 comments
Quantrell writes "A leaked e-mail shows that Apple hit the #1 spot for music sales in January. The article speculates that consumers cashing in their holiday gift cards may have played a role; but of course Wal-Mart and the other retailers sold gift cards too. The news is a mixed bag for the record labels. 'For the music industry, there is a dark side to Apple's ascension to the top of the charts. Buying patterns for digital downloads are different, as customers are far more likely to cherry pick a favorite track or two from an album than purchase the whole thing. In contrast, brick-and-mortar sales are predominantly high-margin CDs.'" We recently discussed Wal-Mart's role in the music business, back when they were selling nearly 20% of US music. For January Apple was at 19% and Wal-Mart at 15%.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • Wait (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:41PM (#22861690)
    I thought all you guys stole all your music.
    • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sm62704 (957197) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:22PM (#22862260) Journal
      I thought all you guys stole all your music.

      Well, stealing music [wikipedia.org] is only a misdemeanor with a few hundred dollar fine if you get caught. copyright infringement [uncyclopedia.org] is a civil matter that can cost thousands upon thousands if you get caught.

      So is it any wonder that those guys steal it rather than infringe copyright?

      Myself, I'd rather buy indie music on CD from the bands themselves. $15.99? Hell, $10 is too much, most of the time they'll sell me two or three CDs for ten bucks. And it cost them a hell of a lot more to get them recorded, stamped, and packaged than it costs the major labels.

      No matter what you think about WalMart, they're in the right on this one. As evil as WalMart may be, the major record labels are far more evil.

      -mcgrew
      • Re:Wait (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Urza9814 (883915) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @04:27PM (#22863112)
        Yea. I was part of an indie band myself. We got 100 discs printed off, full liner notes and everything and shipped to us for under $250. If anyone in their basement can pump out CDs for $2.50 a piece, no reason big name artists couldn't do it cheaper. Hell, had we managed to sell them for $10 each, it woulda only taken 700 copies to completely pay for all our equipment. We put out two albums, so that's 350 of each. Probably coulda done that easy had we cared.

        So let's see: assuming that same $7.50 profit on each album, and we'll say you wanna make at least $50,000 a year (which seems more than reasonable to me) and we'll say you put out one album every 3 years. That's 20,000 copies of each. Now, if you can't sell 20,000 copies of an album, you can't really expect to make it big. Or you could, ya know, have another job. Everyone in my band had other jobs, we still played shows here and there, and we managed two albums in about three years. For a better example, all the members of the doom metal band My Dying Bride have other jobs, and they've put out 13 albums in 14 years and tour other countries and continents. It's possible. As I said, if a bunch of kids in their basement can do it, why can't the professionals?
        • Re:Wait (Score:5, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25 2008, @06:41PM (#22864402)
          As I said, if a bunch of kids in their basement can do it, why can't the professionals?

          Dont you know how much it costs to have a private jet, custom 3 bus caravan (with one bus just for the prima-donna lead guitarists' guitar collection) let alone the amount of money needed to keep the drummers coke addiction fueled? The Bassist's alcohol problem it's self costs $7500.00 a show and that does not count bribing him out of jail after every gig.

          Being a REAL band is expensive. It costs at least $45,000 a month just to keep the drugs and booze flowing. The skanky hooker expense is close to that unless you are a screamo band, then you get away with $60.00 a night. (those guys like dirty ho's!

          It costs at least $100,000 a month to take care of the artists and keep them artistic. Many bands like Metallica need another $1.2mil monthly just to think about creating, or at least re-recording their old junk so they dont sound like complete tools on stage when they cant remember the words to "sandman"

          (Yes I am bitter that the lazy assholes dont even try anymore at the $250.00 a ticket raping prices)
        • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 25 2008, @06:45PM (#22864438)

          As I said, if a bunch of kids in their basement can do it, why can't the professionals?


          Because you guys probably had talent. The pros have to spend megabucks on marketing to sell crap.
          • Re:Wait (Score:5, Informative)

            by Urza9814 (883915) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @05:29PM (#22863750)
            Hm. I thought we did get pressed CDs, but yea, you're right, they were burned. But, from the same place we got ours (DiskFaktory.com), you can get 1000 pressed CDs for $1.17 each...so I think my estimate of $2.50 each is still pretty good.
          • " You're not really making $7.50/unit, because you're not accounting for production, distribution and marketing. If you leave those out, then of course it'll look cheap. "

            Doesn't matter. With a valid business model, those things are inexpensive and mostly pay for themselves.

            There's a reason business, you know, invests into capital expenditures. When you invest in distribution or marketing, your paying someone to help you sell more units; because there is still room between the vast per-unit profit you are making and the point where additional capital returns generate negative total income.

            If it wasn't driving sales, RIAA labels wouldn't employ top-notch production teams in building albums. They'd record them on an MP3 camera phone and press that directly to disk. And if audiences didn't buy albums based on super-expensive cover artwork, a label would release it with low-cost artwork; or none at all, if it could get away.

            And distribution? Perhaps distributors would consider buying CDs if they thought they represented a good value; i.e. they could sell these "CD" things for more than they purchased them. Without, that is, a marketing subsidy.

            Not to mention that each level in the distribution chain tends not to settle for less than 43% net income, particularly retailers.

            Basically, if the per-unit cost(meaning the cost to press that CD, print the label, an put it in a case with a full-color cardboard sleeve on it) is still _at most_ 30-40% of MSRP ($6.40); if they spend a _ton_ of money on it. At most, the unit cost of manufacturing is in the $2.50 range (that how much it takes to make 100!). At 50,000 level, and particularly the 500,000 level, these things become incredibly cheap. The total cost curve starts to flatten out. You'd be shocked at how low it is below the retail MSRP, because at those volumes (500,000-millions) the revenue streams become bankable. The percentage of unit costs that is fixed cost approaches nearly nil, and it becomes dead easy to borrow money (find an institution to invest in you) to finance production. Particularly if you have most of the equipment.

            Lets be generous, and say that comes to $1.25. That's HALF what it takes to make 100. That's more than what it takes to make & package a foam shoe. It's probably around the price of cheap perfume products. And is certainly a great deal more than some generic pharmaceutical products, and those two categories of product have FDA requirements and excessive, tamperproof packaging. Lets be more generous, claim that retails are really gouging them, and paying "only" $4.80. Walmart claims to make a loss at $10.00; but who knows, maybe that includes some funky numbers. That means they make "only"$3.55 a CD, which is then blown on production costs, advertising.

            What that means if they break even, or god forbid, loose money, is fully 3/4s of the money "made" on that album, by the label, is spent on marketing and and bribing distributors to take it. If you had product that was actually good enough to sell by itself; or, god forbid, a product for which a concert tour represented adequate marketing, that 3/4 would be all profit.

            There's really only 2 scenarios. Either the RIAA labels are making obscene profits (50-90% of MSRP, depending upon volume), or the shit they put out is so bad that it is effectively unsellable without an expensive campaign to dress it up as "not shit".

            Given the RIAA label's worsening financial state, I'd guess its the latter. It's too bloody expensive, and society as a whole thinks that those resources should be better spent on something else. Effectively, at $15.99 an album, music is too expensive for the market to want to buy it. Particularly when the market becomes more and more aware that there are distribution media for which the unit-cost is 0 (electronic).
      • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

        by dontmakemethink (1186169) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @04:35PM (#22863222)

        As an indie musician and producer, I can assure you that successful indie bands do not sell CD's for $10, much less several. Stage-side CD sales should be for $20 or more, partly because of the opportunity to get them signed by the band, also because it's an inelastic demand - anyone willing to spend $10 on a CD at a show will typically spend $20, so selling for less does not sell more copies. It's only when there is a selection of 100's of bands that purse strings tighten.

        I feel compelled to reply because I don't want folks to think they can talk any musician down to $10 on a CD. Some you can, but they probably recorded it in their garage.

        And while it does cost indies more per CD to manufacture them, major labels typically have much higher production budgets. I produce for between $3k-$8k, majors are typically $50k and up. There are many hits on the radio which cost over $1M for just the one song. And if it flops, the artist(s) gets the bill!

        Ironically, the least expensive component of a CD is pressing the content, the most expensive is printing the artwork. That's big motivation to go the iTunes route.

      • Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)

        by h3llfish (663057) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @05:07PM (#22863548)
        I agree that Walmart is the "hero" of this particular story, but to me, the real villain is the record buying public. We can't ask firms to not try to make a profit... that's communism! We needed to stand up to the major labels a long time ago by simply not buying their over-priced crap. But sadly, most of us are just too dumb to know better.

        That includes me, back in my teenage years, when I would spend darn near every cent that I had on "content", either as movies or CDs. Music meant so much to me back then, I would have paid 40 bucks a CD to get the latest Nirvana album if I had to. Thank the Lords of Cobol that today's teens have much better access to the true alternatives.

        Marketing (aka propaganda) is very powerful, especially on those who have weak or poorly developed egos (like teens). We need to do a better job as a culture of teaching young people how to spot it (not hard, it's ubiquitous), and how to spot the fallacious logic and appeals to insecurities. The vast majority of the time, marketing is trying to get you to do something that is not in your best interest... like pay 20 bucks for the new Nickleback CD! Ugh!
        • by sentientbrendan (316150) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @05:53PM (#22863978)
          >I agree that Walmart is the "hero" of this particular story, but to me, the real villain is the record buying public.

          How is Walmart the hero? This is another story in Walmart's long history of pushing competitors out of the marketplace and then squeezing suppliers. Walmart is the ultimate middleman in that they have more leverage than either producers, consumers, or even their own workers. That said, I don't even really think that Walmart is a villain exactly (most of the time), they are just an extremely well run business optimizing their profits.

          What I think is very wrong is the interpretation that anyone that screws the record industry, the movie industry, or the software industry is somehow a hero. Somehow the slashdot crowd has gotten the impression that these industries are composed completely of useless middlemen who don't deserve to make any profit from their work.

          However, this is less and less true since now artists can sell their work fairly independently. This was probably never true with the software industry, where even smaller publishers like Stardock can make it onto Walmart shelves, and the movie industry where actors, writers and directors all get paid pretty handsomely.

          The truth is that you can't take money out of the "record industries" pockets without taking money out of artists pockets, especially now that artists have access to smaller or self created labels and the ability to sell their stuff over the internet.

          Personally, I buy products at the lowest price I can get them, but I don't go around cheering when the producers get shortchanged.
          • by h3llfish (663057) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @06:23PM (#22864224)
            Walmart is the hero in this story because they are trying to drive down prices. Now, when they used the same strong-arm tactics on the Rubbermaid corporation, it resulted in American jobs going to China. That makes them not the hero in that one, to me. The US economy was made weaker by the job loss, and the increase in the already staggering national trade deficit.

            The music industry is different. Our pop music is not going to be made more cheaply in China any time soon (I hope). And while market forces would normally drive the price of a good down, with music, all CDs are not interchangeable. If someone makes a cheaper light bulb that's just as good as other bulbs, I switch to the cheaper ones. CDs don't work that way, mostly due to the amazing triumph of propaganda.

            Because of this tremendous brand loyalty (people get tattoos of their favorite rockbands... anyone ever get a tattoo of their favorite soap?), the price is pretty high. Competitive market forces have not driven the price down, despite the fact that the cost to produce the product has gone down. Milton Freidman is spinning in his grave!

            Further, I just don't agree with your statement that it's impossible to force record companies to take a smaller chunk of the pie without also shafting artists. The artists have been getting shafted all along, unless they're at the very top. The price breakdown in TFA shows the artist getting $1.60 in royalties (80 cents more if they wrote the song too). That's misleading. All artists do not get the same share of the royalties. Plus, the money that artists do get, they often have to give right back to pay for the cost of recording the album. Here's an article from 2000 where Courtney Love talks about how artists get shafted by record companies. In know, she's a train wreck, but she does have experience dealing with record companies.

            http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html [salon.com]

            And besides, TFA says that the record company gets $1.70 Label profit, and $2.91 Label overhead - over and above the cost of marketing, producing and distributing. What is label overhead? And why is it way more than the artist gets, even in a best case scenario?
    • Re:Wait (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Technician (215283) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @06:40PM (#22864386)
      I thought all you guys stole all your music.

      In some locations, where Tower Records and other retailers are gone, it's Wal * Mart or Wal * Mart. Unless you look the other way while I borrow a loaded iPod, there are few options for kids without credit cards. Schoolyard trading is now the de-facto established method of filling an iPod. I know. I have 2 teens at home. The RIAA waiting till they are in college to educate them is a big mistake. By then they already know where the good music comes from. Something needs to be done to attract younger shoppers. Shutting them out by closing doors and forcing stupid pricing is not the way. Less than 10 CD's for a C note doesn't happen to someone with a paper route. That money is for new headphones, better iPod, the movies and other social activities.

      You may criticize me for not stopping it. Other than banning music players, there isn't much to be done when the kids visit friends houses. They may be heavily monitored online to prevent a RIAA lawsuit for making available, but it's hard for them to see what goes on in the friends home. Throttled P-P was able to be monitored. The Comcast throtteling is a blessing for parents. Media Sentry can't download anything to prove it is really a RIAA property. Thanks Comcast. The only downer is I have to use somebody's generosity for the latest Ubuntu ISO and am unable to provide it on Bittorrent. Thank goodness Portland State University has a fat pipe. Thanks guys!

      A 30 Gig iPod transfer is a little harder to catch than a torrent and only takes about 30 minutes. These kids aren't dumb. They know how to slide into the shadows out of view. The RIAA isn't making P-P go away. It's returning to sneakernet. In spite of the sneakernet, P-P seems to have little decline. Too bad they haven't figured out the product is too expensive for their intended market.
  • 2004? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DigitalisAkujin (846133) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:42PM (#22861696) Homepage
    Hardly news considering the article was posted on Oct 12th, 2004!

    Who the hell approved this?
    • Re:2004? (Score:5, Funny)

      by night_flyer (453866) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:44PM (#22861732) Homepage
      Take it easy on him... he's a slow reader
    • Re:2004? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by The-Bus (138060) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:00PM (#22861946) Homepage
      Well, it's been brought up again recently [yahoo.com].

      All Wal-Mart needs to succeed with this is to have one record company break off and decide to join them and have $5 to $10 CDs. Which brings me to this point:

      Maas referenced the DVD business as a model for tiered pricing. "(It) has been around for years and has worked very well," he said.
      DVDs weren't always so dirt cheap. Aside from dot-com era startups selling DVDs for $1, DVD prices were extremely high for a long time. Even in 2000, it was difficult to find a lot of DVDs for much under $15-$20 at your big-box discount stores like Best Buy, etc. I remember reading an article around that time that one of the executives at Warner Bros. wanted to make a DVD an impulse buy, with a price matching that of a magazine ($6 or so). At the time, it sounded insane. A few years later, it was a reality: bins of $5 titles at Wal-Mart. Two-for-$5 titles on Black Friday. Even at corner drugstores, $10 DVDs.

      Record companies have done this. They usually repackage artists into a new "best of" and sell it for $11 or less. And Best Buy has had new releases of artists for $7 and below for many years, although that's usually limited to a single week and a handful of new untested artists.

      If one of the majors breaks off and starts offering discs at below-iTunes prices, the others will have to follow. They can still follow what they've been doing by mirrorring the DVD market: sell the basic CD for peanuts, sell the enhanced CD+DVD with a t-shirt or a poster or more tracks for $20.
      • Re:2004? (Score:5, Interesting)

        The really interesting thing about those two articles in tandem is that the quotes go from Wal-Mart being 10% of the record industry's business to 20% in three or four years.

        Can anyone say, "Vlasic" [fastcompany.com]?
      • Re:2004? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Maestro4k (707634) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:28PM (#22862336) Journal

        I remember reading an article around that time that one of the executives at Warner Bros. wanted to make a DVD an impulse buy, with a price matching that of a magazine ($6 or so). At the time, it sounded insane. A few years later, it was a reality: bins of $5 titles at Wal-Mart. Two-for-$5 titles on Black Friday. Even at corner drugstores, $10 DVDs.

        I was working at a Wal-mart back when they introduced the $5.50 DVDs (I think that's the price they were at first, I may have it confused with the current price though). There was an article in the company newsletter about it and according to that this was Wal-mart's idea. One of the buyers at HQ got the idea, and managed to convince a studio or two to go along with it. Once it was introduced and they started selling like hotcakes the other studios very quickly decided to jump on the bandwagon, and the rest is history.

        Personally I'm glad Wal-mart's putting pressure on the record labels, there's a lot of inefficiency in how they do things. I'm quite certain they could get that price down to around $10 pretty easily if they wanted to. It's really hard to believe that it costs more to produce a CD than it does to produce a DVD when movies cost a hell of a lot more to make. The record companies don't even want to lower the pricing on back catalog CDs, ones where they long ago recouped all investment they made in the actual production and marketing of it.

        One thing I thought of: if Wal-mart succeeds in this it should lower wholesale prices for everyone, including the mom and pop record stores. Wal-mart may still get them a bit cheaper (after all they buy in rather large volumes), but if CDs come down to close to $10 wholesale it'll be easier for the small stores to compete. Basically everyone wins -- except the record companies and probably the artists. I'm sure they'll find some way to screw the artists over.

        • Re:2004? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by hedwards (940851) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @04:06PM (#22862858)
          If you look closely, there's quite a bit of fat in the figures that they cited as a reason to price it at $15.99.

          For example $3.89 for retail overhead, and $2.91 for label overhead. Sure that's cute and cuddly and numbers, but part of business is finding ways of maximizing efficiency. The implication that those are constant costs which can't be affected by the parties involved is just foolhardy. I'd be shocked if Walmart can't find a way of shrinking that retail overhead from there to something lower.

          $2.40 for marketing and promotion wouldn't be important if the music wasn't mixed in with so much garbage. Believe it or not, but there is still some mainstream music worth listening to, it's just not easy to find via adverts and radio play. Wading through all the crap to get to the stuff with actual artistry involved is far more difficult than it should be.

          Provide the users with reasonable exposure via TV, radio and the net and the consumers will decide if they like it. Playing the same damn 10 tracks every hour isn't something that cuts it. Expecting me to pay $2.40 per album for the labels to artificially restrict what I have access is silly at best. Word of mouth is free, and routinely provides better results anyways.

          Or better yet, provide a proper buffet style subscription. Sort of like the playsforsure plan, pay a reasonable monthly fee and listen to anything and everything, with the tracks expiring when the person stops paying. Having access doesn't necessarily mean that a person isn't going to value it enough to buy it. Plus opt-in anonymous stat collection ought to be able to do a better job of figuring out what people actually like than a bunch of execs in suits. Even with napster, I was willing to pay for the CDs because they had better sound quality and I could be sure that they were tagged properly. I recall my copy of Sweet Home Alabama was tagged as being by CCR.

          I'm terribly skeptical that the musicians are being paid $1.70 per disc. If you include mega stars, mega star perks and things like that, it's possibly accurate, but how about providing the groups with the money directly and require them to pay for the perks themselves. Seems like a much better incentive for them to decide whether or not they need the excessive stuff.
          • Re:2004? (Score:5, Informative)

            by molarmass192 (608071) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @05:30PM (#22863764) Homepage Journal
            If I'm not mistaken, I believe that touring is actually the primary source of revenue for most artists. The typical deal is 50% of the box office for a venue. Think 20K people paying $40 a head and that's $400K for one night versus moving 250K CDs (1/2 to a gold record). Coldplay sold 8.3 million copies of X&Y globally, for a presumed global take of $13.2M on album sales (and X&Y was H-U-G-E). The band played 34 US cities for the supporting tour, not counting other countries, at an average take of $400K per stop for a presumed US take of $13.6M, that can probably be doubled given it was a global tour. So $27M for touring, versus $13M for album sales, granted that without the album, the tour would likely have been smaller venues than arenas.
    • Re:2004? (Score:5, Funny)

      by peipas (809350) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:12PM (#22862108)

      Hardly news considering the article was posted on Oct 12th, 2004!

      Who the hell approved this?
      There's more. It's a dupe [slashdot.org]. Wow.
  • Commodity? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jawtheshark (198669) * <slashdot.jawtheshark@com> on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:43PM (#22861710) Homepage Journal

    At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space.

    And you expect sympathy somehow? I mean, let's be serious: the music industry did all it could to make music a "commodity and throwaway product". I sorry, but what did you expect? You wanted to sell a commodity product, then you live by the rules of commodity products. Geez.... These people are obtuse...

  • The breakdown (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SatanicPuppy (611928) * <Satanicpuppy@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:43PM (#22861724) Journal
    $0.17 Musicians' unions *Typical
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
    $0.82 Publishing royalties *e.g The rights to the song itself
    $0.80 Retail profit *Poor bastards. No wonder they're going out of business.
    $0.90 Distribution
    $1.60 Artists' royalties
    $1.70 Label profit *Hmmmmmm.
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion *So why don't 20 year old albums cost any less?
    $2.91 Label overhead *Upgrade your equipment, jesus.
    $3.89 Retail overhead *Because if it weren't for music, they'd be selling crack in that space.

    Oh yea...No scam here. I'm not sure if it's just the bloated nature of the business or what, but this is a steaming pile of crap from my perspective. It's a fricking dollar seventy to make it and get it to the store, but the "price" is fifteen bucks?

    Breaking down the rest, we notice that all the combined "profits" amount to twice the cost of manufacture and distribution, and that the combined "overhead" is equal to more than all the profit, cost, and distribution combined...I imagine that's calcuated on the costs to maintain the machinery, the retail space, etc, that makes all the stuff possible.

    The whole thing screams bloated industry to me. Overhead is 50% of the cost? There is something wrong with your model. Fricking newspapers do better than that.

    Nice to see the evil of Wal-Mart being turned to a good purpose (subjugating the recording industry). Something nice about the world when two wrongs do make a right. One choice quote: "For the music industry, having such a dominant retailer is like being stuck in a bad marriage." Doesn't that sound like everyone elses relationship with the RIAA?
    • Re:The breakdown (Score:4, Interesting)

      by gEvil (beta) (945888) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:48PM (#22861802)
      Shhh. Nobody tell SatanicPuppy that the Manufacturing and Distribution costs are the same for that $60 video game he just bought.
        • Re:The breakdown (Score:5, Insightful)

          by gEvil (beta) (945888) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:57PM (#22861894)
          Somehow I knew that this would be the first response. "But making a video game costs money! It doesn't cost anything to produce a record!" I'm not saying that I agree with how the major labels operate (I worked in the music industry for a number of years, FWIW. And part of that was for a major label.), but it's disingenuous to say that it only costs a coupla grand to make an album that will sell millions of copies. Or should we also base the entire software world on the success and relative costs on something like, say, Geometry Wars?
          • Re:The breakdown (Score:5, Informative)

            by SatanicPuppy (611928) * <Satanicpuppy@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:14PM (#22862136) Journal
            Having dealt with both sides, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to put together a good album than it is a good game. The tools you need to put together a good album are cheaper, they don't suffer from the pace of obsolescence that afflicts high tech gear. You need the musicians, you need a sound guy (if you're not doing it yourself) and you need a decent recording space.

            In the old days, you had to do that in some big recording studio, but these days there isn't any reason you couldn't do it in a sufficiently padded basement with a laptop running some basic music software.

            Now some games, obviously, are cheaper than that...Your 60 dollar figure is pretty much aimed at the console market, where the margins are also quite thin since they have all the expenses above, plus a hefty licensing fee. But the vast majority of developers have huge NRE in terms of equipment, artists, programmers, etc, even on failed games that sell poorly.

            In short, it's not an apples to apples comparison. It'd be like complaining when a movie DVD is cheaper than a music CD, without acknowledging the tiny difference the box office returns make in the movie profits.
    • Re:The breakdown (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ivan256 (17499) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:07PM (#22862048)
      If the studios spent some of that "label overhead" for artist development instead of treating it as another "profit" column without labeling it as such, you could bring the average marketing costs *way* down. Think $0.10 instead of $2.40.... After all, if 90% of pop hits weren't from one-hit-wonders you wouldn't have to spend all that money introducing a new face every month.

      Of course that requires a business plan with a greater than 3 month outlook, and if they did that they may realize suing their customers wasn't such a good idea either... Even less overhead!

      Additionally, publishing royalties + label profit should be less-than or equal to artist's royalties. If copyright law needs to be adjusted to help this change along, so be it.
  • Costs too much (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CastrTroy (595695) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:44PM (#22861738) Homepage
    I personally think an CD costs way too much. When a movie with multi-million dollar production costs can be sold for the same amount, that's one big indicator that they are charging too much. I currently buy my music pretty much only on eMusic, because it comes down to about $4 an album, which is what I consider fair. A CD (or download of) really should cost less than $5, in order to bring it into the point where it's an impulse buy, and people just buy them without even considering if they are getting a good deal or not.
    • Re:Costs too much (Score:5, Insightful)

      by hanshotfirst (851936) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:00PM (#22861952)
      While I agree with you, this reasoning may not hold up very well, since the movie more than paid for itself and DVD production at the box office - the DVD is gravy. (Assuming a movie worth getting the DVD for.)

      The CD on the other hand doesn't have that - maybe there's a concert tour, but the tour usually makes money on merch and CD sales, so we're back to the CD being the main profit center again.
  • by johnny cashed (590023) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:44PM (#22861748) Homepage
    Let us price it like one. Whoever thought that it would be Wal-Mart to break the industry.
  • Reap What You Sow. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by powerlord (28156) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:45PM (#22861752) Journal
    Somehow its odd and appropriate to see the RIAA that has been hounding consumers find itself the "Big fish in the small pond."

    On the other hand, what does it say for the future of ANY goods producer when WallMart wields that much muscle in your sales chart?
  • OK. The article is old news, but it's a good topic for anyone interested in the industry's future to consider, and most of the points are still relevant.

    Consider this:

    Production costs should be down with the advances in tech and refinement of manufacturing.

    Wal-Mart *is* a distributor, so distribution costs should be lower.

    Promotion costs *could* be lower if more of the music industry understood new media rather than treating it as somewhere between anathema and tolerable evil.

    So, real CD costs should be falling. They probably are *somewhat*, given inflation, but in context of the given advances, it really doesn't seem like enough.

    The costs in the article are also interesting. Some of 'em look on, but others don't:

    $0.17 Musicians' unions - Unions get royalties on CDs? That's interesting. I've never heard that before.
    $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing - You can get smallish (2000-5000) runs for near this cost. A major label release really should be benefiting from an economy of scale here.
    $0.82 Publishing royalties - if it's cover songs, sure. If this is original material written for a contract or under licensing from a signed artist, this cost shouldn't be this high.
    $0.80 Retail profit - $.80 ain't anything a profit I'd begrudge the retail establishment.
    $0.90 Distribution - See Wal-Mart *is* the distributor.
    $1.60 Artists' royalties - Given the information available about industry accounting practices, is anyone else skeptical that the artists are getting this money?
    $1.70 Label profit - I'm OK with this.
    $2.40 Marketing/promotion - Since this is what a label is really supposed to do, I'm not surprised it's this big a portion, and maybe that's OK.
    $2.91 Label overhead - What exactly is supposed to be here other than production costs and everything else on this list? I suspect this is really one of two big issues.
    $3.89 Retail overhead - And this is the other one.

    Those last two numbers pretty much tell the story of why disintermediation is going to continue to be a strong trend for the music industry. Slash them numbers and you're down *below* Wal-Mart's sale price and certainly competetive with prevailing online retailers. Fail to do it and you're not. Especially if you're acting like you're entitled to it in the meanwhile.

  • surprise, surprise (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Red Flayer (890720) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:46PM (#22861774) Journal

    'Wal-Mart has no long-term care for an individual artist or marketing plan, unlike the specialty stores, which were a real business partner. At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space.'
    Why are people constantly surprised by the fact that at some point, they need to pay the piper?

    When you do business with Walmart, you should know that you're going to be asked to reduce your price. When you stop supporting mom-and-pop shops by not giving them the volume discounts you give to Walmart, to the point where Walmart has a potentially sufocating grip on your retail pipeline, then you're in trouble.

    This is what happens when you dance with the devil... you find out he's clumsy and steps on your feet, and has bad breath to boot.

    There's an op-ed piece written by the founder of Snapper that sheds a lot of light on why/how a manufacturer should choose not to do business with Walmart. Too busy to dreg up a link, but well worth the read, for anyone who cares enough to do a google search.
  • by inode_buddha (576844) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:47PM (#22861790) Journal
    Memo to record labels: What's wrong with having to fight for shelf space like everyone else? Competition? Has it occurred that maybe Wal-Mart would like to sell even more?
  • by Malfourmed (633699) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:55PM (#22861876) Homepage
    In my opinion the key difference between music distribution and movie/TV distribution is that the latter has access to multiple revenue streams.

    You make a movie and you show it at the theatres and get money. You sell the cable/free-to-air TV rights and get money. By the time you release it on DVD you've (hopefully) made back most of your production costs or are even showing a profit already.

    You make a record on the other hand and when it's played on the radio (the equivalent of free-to-air TV distribution) you don't get any money; in fact it costs you (in marketing or other incentives) to get airplay. You have to make back all your production costs via CD sales. Granted, it doesn't cost as much to cut a CD as to make a (Hollywood) movie, but then there are only limited ways to get your money back, necessitating a higher unit-charge.

    If labels would be able to charge radio stations to play their music (something highly unlikely to happen, by the way) I believe CD prices would likely fall.
  • Previous breakdown (Score:5, Informative)

    by duranaki (776224) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:58PM (#22861916)
    I'd be curious to compare this against the breakdown when the CD was introduced. I vaguely remember something like, "Sure, it's $16 now, but if everyone gets on board the economy of scale will reduce the price closer to the record prices you are used to paying! (~$8)". I think these misc. overhead costs are probably just fudge factors to avoid listing them under profit, like how movie production companies make up data to keep their net profits artificially low.
  • by cant_get_a_good_nick (172131) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:22PM (#22862262)
    In the rare cases you can find tapes, they're cheaper than CDs. WHen CDs came out, i remember hearing the labels say something along the lines of "they're expensive now, but once we mass distribute, they'll be cheaper than tapes". It sill hasn't happened.
    I'm not sure why a tape which has at a minimum:

    • 2 case sides, two 2 part spindles, a tape leader, the tape substrate, the electromagnetical coating that actually records the data, 2 rollers, the metal thing to push against the read head and the sponge to not scratch the tape, and 2 clear windows, possbly 5 screws if the case doesn't snap together, possibly 2 inserts if the case is clear

    is easier and cheaper to manufacture than a CD, especially know that CDs get more economies of scale than tapes. The fact that AOL switched from floppies to CDs probably also shows that CD manufacture is cheaper (though i'm sure it wasn't the only motivation in the switch.)

    As far as the CD being an arbitrary price point, i remember when Public Enemy came out with "There's a Poison Going On". Their album was $8 for a download, $10 for an autographed CD. Once their label imploded (they were true pioneers in internet distribution, though a bit too early and the infrastructure wasn't ready for them yet) the same, non-autographed CD was sold in Virgin for 17.95. I'm not sure why virgin deserved the 7.95 (or more, depending on the value you put on the autograph) price delta.

    As an aside, people don't recognize that Public Enemy was one of the first bands to really use the internet. They have several blogs and websites, released Bring The Noise 2000 on the internet for free (before the label made them take it down), released the single Swindler's Lust for free, and for Revolverlution, pre-released some tracks and asked for the remixes to be sent back to them, and included a pretty good remix (plus the original of course) of "Give the Peeps what they Need" on the Revolverlution disk.
  • by popmaker (570147) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @04:34PM (#22863210)
    If the record companies just decided to agree to tell Wal-Mart to go fuck themselves, what would actually happen? Do they matter SO much that that is not a possibility? Do people buy music at Wal-Mart just because they saw a CD there (a CD they wouldn't have bought otherwise) or would they actually go buy that CD elsewhere if it wasn't at Wal-Mart.

    Even though record companies are by no means my favourite, they would gain some tiny bit of respect if they decided to just drop Wal-Mart. A way of saying "we only do business with people who care about music". Though we know that it's not true.
  • by dlim (928138) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @04:51PM (#22863380) Journal
    Ok. CDs cost money to produce, but the article is dated, and I think a more interesting question with respect to the cost of music is "how do the costs translate to online sales?" I am clearly guessing here, but if anyone else has real numbers, please reply. Given that everyone likes to talk about Radiohead's "In Rainbows", I'll base my estimates on that. The album has 10 songs, so...

    Online Distribution (10 songs / CD)

    $0.17 - Musicians' unions - no change
    $0.22 - Packaging/manufacturing - 2% of revenue to license mp3 format for content distribution [mp3licensing.com], AAC is free for distribution [daringfireball.net], don't know about Fairplay DRM.
    $0.82 - Publishing royalties - no change
    $1.00 - Retail profit - 12 @ $.10/song [macnn.com]
    $0.10 - Distribution - Bandwidth ~5MB/song (downloaded from Radiohead) = 50 MB * 0.0005/MB [findarticles.com]=$.025 (the estimate is for Video on Demand, but that's all I could find). I bumped it up a little to cover hardware maintenance.
    $1.60 - Artists' royalties - no change
    $1.70 - Label profit - no change
    $2.40 - Marketing/promotion - no change
    $2.91 - Label overhead - no change
    $0.00 - Retail overhead - not sure

    Total: $10.92

    Apple sells "In Rainbows" for $9.99. Amazon sells it for $7.99 as a download. I don't believe Apple loses money on downloads. I'm not sure about Amazon. While this is strictly hypothetical, it would seem the difference between a $15 CD and a $10 downloaded album is more than just the cost of production and distribution of the CD. Assuming I'm not totally off on my numbers, and the numbers that aren't related to production and distribution do not change, it should not be possible for Apple to sell the record for $10 or Amazon for $8. I believe the pricing model must allow for online retailers to make a profit, so what makes up the difference? Are the labels giving up profits? Are they operating more efficiently than they used to?

    • by SatanicPuppy (611928) * <Satanicpuppy@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:48PM (#22861808) Journal
      Seems arbitrary. I notice you stuck up for the union...God forbid they feel the pinch of the industry.

      All this tells me is that artists should market aggressively with digital format music, and keep CD sales as a small-time sideline; they could charge 5 bucks plus shipping and handling and make a ~3 bucks a pop.
        • by SatanicPuppy (611928) * <Satanicpuppy@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:58PM (#22861912) Journal
          17 cents per CD...I missed where they contributed anything there...Are they singing backup?

          They're certainly not doing ~20% of the work that the retailer is doing, or ~13% of the work the artist is doing...Just irritates me. Artists are getting fricking screwed all the time; why do they even have a union?
          • by CRCulver (715279) <crculver@christopherculver.com> on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:09PM (#22862070) Homepage
            Musicians unions often give significant emergency aid to musicians fallen on hard times. Were it not for help from the composers union, for example, Bela Bartok would have been dead two years earlier than he was. I see no reason to protest.
          • by merreborn (853723) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:24PM (#22862284) Homepage Journal

            Artists are getting fricking screwed all the time; why do they even have a union?
            The RIAA and its members would steamroll 99% of artists into taking *less* than the 10% royalties they're getting now, if they were unionless. If anything, musicians need a stronger union.

            I'd hate to be a small time, MTV2 band without a union to back me up against a major label.
            • by dgatwood (11270) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @04:52PM (#22863388) Journal

              I can get insurance for instruments and equipment through ASCAP without being part of any union.... Bear in mind, though, that the people in unions are not the artists. The folks in the unions are the studio session musicians, the composer/arrangers on hire by studios, etc. I see no reason that they should be a line item on the CD sales costs, though. They should be getting their money in the form of union dues from the hired musicians in question. That money should fall under the "label overhead" column. The only reason to break that out into a separate column is to make anti-union people see red. Unless, of course, the unions are actually getting money directly from each sale, in which case, the anti-union people should be seeing red.

    • by gstoddart (321705) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @02:56PM (#22861882) Homepage
      What amazes me most about that breakdown, is if you look at it, it's hard to figure out why the labels are whining about the iTunes pricing model.

      It seems like they'd get just as much money per track, and cut out a lot of overhead. That sorta seems to support this push to get higher pricing on iTunes tracks is just a cash grab (surprise) by the labels.

      Cheers
    • by Animats (122034) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:02PM (#22861970) Homepage

      Distribution, $0.90? $900 for a thousand CDs? No way, not for WalMart.

      This is WalMart you're shipping to. You ship to them by the truckload, not one CD at a time. Any in-store costs come under retail overhead, not distribution.

      The promotion costs need to shrink. Maybe we'll see the labels begging for time on webcasts. Label overhead is far too high. The labels don't really do much today except promote; they don't directly employ artists, they don't run recording studios, they don't manufacture CDs, and they don't do physical distribution and warehousing. That's all outsourced. But management overhead hasn't been cut accordingly.

      As the WalMart VP says: "The labels price things based on what they believe they can get -- a pricing philosophy a lot of industries have. But we like to price things as cheaply as we possibly can, rather than charge as much as we can get. It's a big difference in philosophy, and we try to help other people see that."

      • As the WalMart VP says: "The labels price things based on what they believe they can get -- a pricing philosophy a lot of industries have. But we like to price things as cheaply as we possibly can, rather than charge as much as we can get. It's a big difference in philosophy, and we try to help other people see that."

        Walmart, sucks to be their vendor, great to be their customer. I love it when two things I consider to be evil lock horns. Its why I'm a libertarian.

    • by garett_spencley (193892) on Tuesday March 25 2008, @03:04PM (#22862010) Journal
      I printed 1,000 CDs for a personal indie project that I did (*cough*shameless self plug [cdbaby.com]*cough*) and $0.80 / CD is around what I paid INCLUDING what I paid the artist to do the art work.

      There's no freakin' way that that major labels are paying $0.80 / CD when they print runs in the tens of thousands. They should be getting WAY better bulk deals.