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80% of MS Server Protocols Are Unpatented

Posted by timothy on Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:10 PM
from the minefield-aerobics dept.
Patents Microsoft News
perlow writes "ZDNet blogger Jason Perlow and Centrify's Tom Kemp discover that 80 percent of all Microsoft server protocols are un-patented. What exactly then, did SAMBA license? Are Microsoft's patent and intellectual property threats simply the growls of a paper tiger?"
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Submission: 80% of the MS Server protocols are unpatented by perlow (451482)
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  • Microsoft Tax (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tuoqui (1091447) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:11PM (#23160426) Journal
    ...is what they licensed

  • As a wild guess... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Goaway (82658) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:12PM (#23160444) Homepage
    Perhaps they licensed the 20%?
  • ... afterall, to patent them, they would need to describe them :)

    • Re:It makes sense ... (Score:4, Funny)

      by KiltedKnight (171132) * on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:23PM (#23160612) Homepage Journal
      You're making the assumption that even they know exactly what their protocols do, too.

    • Re:It makes sense ... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Qzukk (229616) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:49PM (#23160932) Journal
      they would need to describe them

      These days with the patent office handing out patents like candy, you don't even have to do that. For instance, in the firehose there's been this story for a while http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=631632 [slashdot.org] "Flip Video Camera Maker Sued For Patent Infringeme" Regarding this patent: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5781788.PN.&OS=PN/5781788&RS=PN/5781788 [uspto.gov]

      So without further ado, Claim #1 of the patent:

      1. A video codec, comprising:

      a single semiconductor chip providing for a video input connection from a camera and a video output connection to a monitor of decompressed data, and a transmit channel and a receive channel of compressed data;

      an interface connected to the chip for external connection to a separate frame memory dynamic random access memory (DRAM) and that provides for interim storage of incoming and outgoing video data; and

      a video compressor/decompressor disposed fully within the chip and connected to compress video information received from said video input connection for output on said transmit channel, and connected to decompress video information received from said receive channel for output on said video output connection;

      wherein, said compression of video information is by spatial de-correlation of intraframe information and temporal decorrelation of interframe information, and said transmit and receive channels have communication channel bit rates reduced by quantization and variable length coding
      So. Based on that, how does one compress video using a single chip (the patent has absolutely NOTHING about its implementation)? Being able to show that might make it actually look like the company actually invented something, instead, rendered to its most basic element, the patent says "anything that does stuff using only one chip plus DRAM" which is something an 8 year old could come up with, without even knowing what DRAM means.

      The patent office has long since slid past allowing "crap" to churning out patents of "pure unadulterated bullshit".

      • So. Based on that, how does one compress video using a single chip (the patent has absolutely NOTHING about its implementation)?

        The claims generally do not contain information that tells someone how to use the invention. Instead, the patent specification must include disclosure sufficient to allow a person with ordinary skill in the relevant art to make and use the invention without undue experimentation. If known, the best mode of implementing the invention must be disclosed in the application. Neither type of disclosure typically occurs within the claims.

        In the patent application you linked, there is a section called "DETAILED

  • Ok U'm stupid today (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sm62704 (957197) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:13PM (#23160454) Journal
    Why should a server protocol be patented? A patent should be for something you don't want copied. If I were selling servers I'd want to interoperate with clients and other servers.

    Oh, Microsoft. Never mind, my bad.

    • Re:Ok U'm stupid today (Score:5, Insightful)

      by spun (1352) <[loverevolutionary] [at] [yahoo.com]> on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:43PM (#23160874) Journal
      No, a trade secret is for something you don't want copied. A patent is for something where you want to make money off of the copies.
    • Now, why would you want to do THAT?

      Interoperating with other clients just leads to other software on your client machines, stuff like OS X, or Linux for instance. Not good for Windows sales. Not to mention that you would have to disclose all the nastiness of the protocols to 'let' them work. Not good.

      Not to mention also that you could well be enhancing other server OS makers' market share, say, for instance you were willing to let the Novell Client for Windows actually work properly with your Windows ser

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Kjellander (163404)
          Except, in the case of real inventions, like a toaster for instance, you only have to deal with a couple of patents if you want to build a new one.

          With software patents, you have to deal with every single patent on software ever, and there are more patents issued than you can read in say, a year. And there are more to come.

          And what is the difference between patenting an algorithm and patenting "1+1=2"? The fact that math wasn't patented 2000+ years ago is a good thing for you and me.

  • It only takes one... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eison (56778) <pkteison@nOsPam.hotmail.com> on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:19PM (#23160536) Homepage
    99% could be unpatented, it only takes one patent to ruin you.

  • WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Blakey Rat (99501) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:22PM (#23160594)
    ZDNet blogger Jason Perlow and Centrify's Tom Kemp discover that 80 percent of all Microsoft server protocols are un-patented. What exactly then, did SAMBA license?

    Is this article trying to present me with the logic: 80% of protocols are un-patented, therefore SMB is un-patented?

    Because I don't see how that follows at all. Is SMB part of the 80% or part of the 20%? If you want to know what SAMBA licensed, why don't you just ask them? I'm sure they'd know...
    • SMB would be a rather complicated case, and I'd wager dollars to donuts that it isn't patented. While it was developed initially as part of Lanman, this was all during the IBM-Microsoft marriage. While the protocol has certainly grown since then, the fact remains that I doubt IBM would have permitted this sort of thing on a workgroup networking protocol that was to be the feature part of the OS/2 product line.

    • Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)

      by ischorr (657205) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:53PM (#23160978)
      I agree, it does seem like they're trying to imply that there's only a 1 out of 5 chance that anything related to the Samba technical detail licensing is patented.

      Here is a relevant link:

      http://samba.org/samba/PFIF/ [samba.org] - The Samba licensing announcement.

      The announcement has a lot of ambiguities (and IANAL), but it appears hey agreed that:

      1) Samba Team members would receive access to protocol documentation. This information would only be available to Samba Team members, and available only under NDA
      2) Access to information would not restrict CODE that could be produced using this information
      3) It does not provide any patent coverage.
      4) However, Microsoft would provide a list of patents covering the protocols used by Samba, and keep the list updated. This provides Samba folks a way to understand exactly what methods to avoid - which infringe patents.
      5) Microsoft agreed that any patents not detailed in this list and found to be infringed cannot be "asserted" by Microsoft.

      Presumably, there are items that MS will provide for #4, so there are patents that relate to Samba.
  • It's tempting to say that they're unpatented because MS doesn't want to document their functionality, which would force them to keep supporting older versions (instead of just forcing people to upgrade everything whenever a version of something comes out).

    However, I think the real reason is that MS is realizing that sw patents are a god-awful waste of time and resources to obtain. If you have 20 or so new protocols, the fees plus attorney time, plus appeals, plus developers having to document the necessary

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Allador (537449)
      Large companies like MS and IBM dont generally collect patents so that they can stop other people from using or licensing them.

      They collect them so that they have a weapon to use against other companies, both in offense and in defense.

      There are so many nonsense patents out there that just about every product could be considered to be in infringement.

      So if something comes up, and IBM says to Microsoft, you're using one of our patented ideas, you'll need to pay us. MS then comes back with, Oh but you're als

  • Shipping code precludes patenting (Score:4, Informative)

    by dpilot (134227) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:43PM (#23160870) Homepage Journal
    This is obvious, but since nobody has said it, and since this specific topic hasn't come up yet on other /. patent discussions...

    IANAL, but...

    Shipping your product is equivalent to publication. It start a timer, 1 year in some places, 6 months in others. You have to have your patent applications into the office within that time, or the art is considered "published" and can never be patented. The definition of "shipping" can be pretty darned nebulous, as well. Sending out a beta with a regular NDA is also probably considered publication. You've got to get quite a bit more serious about the restrictions to have a hope of preserving patent rights, from what I understand, and it fact it may be just plain impossible, once it goes out your doors.
    • Showing it to your neighbour can be considered "publication". Some countries (like the US and Canada) give you that 1-year grace period between publication and filing. Other countries don't do that. Publish = public.

      IANAL either. I was studying patents, trademarks, copyrights, industrial designs, integrated circuit topographies, and trade secrets for an exam yesterday.

  • What I would be curious to know is how that 20% is distributed. One or two lumps(albeit probably very profitable lumps, like Exchange or Sharepoint) or evenly mixed into virtually everything?

  • Same Old Microsoft Crap (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HermMunster (972336) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @01:01PM (#23161128)
    Anything that threatens their desktop or server OS market is a target of the most obscene threats, even those that could result in criminal prosecution if they were ever discovered to be done with malice in order to protect their monopoly.

    Threats are Microsoft's business of the day. That's their plan for the future to thwart off all competition to their desktop OS. No matter that they begged, borrowed, and stole 90% of the ideas that went into it. If you can't compete any longer you litigate, or threaten to in order to have customers potentially switching to the competition stop in their tracks.

    Those in their right mind knew this was just blather from the Ballmer, but it is enough to get companies re-examining their plans.

    You can't trust Microsoft and you can't trust that they won't try to patent what they have failed to patent so far. Nor can you keep them from changing things once you have developed around them. You all saw the sheer bullshit with the ISO so you must understand that they are far more devious than this in other areas. We as the watchful eye haven't had a chance yet to gaze into their other practices, the real practices that keep people locked into their technologies.

  • Yes (Score:4, Insightful)

    by CSMatt (1175471) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @01:13PM (#23161348)

    Are Microsoft's patent and intellectual property threats simply the growls of a paper tiger?
    Yes.

  • Ok, this just gets dumber and dumber... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TheNetAvenger (624455) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @01:15PM (#23161410)
    The 'Protocols' have ALWAYS been fairly open for MS Server products.

    The part that SAMBA is licensing and NEEDS to license is when they are implementing features normally found in Windows Server that are not open.

    Off top of my head I would guess these would be:

    ACL & Security
    Group Policy Features
    Domain Features
    Roaming Profiles, etc.
    FS Search Network Queries ala Vista/Windows Desktop Search

    etc etc etc...

    The freaking communications and protocols are never been a big MS secret, as they are just evolutionary methods, it is the guts that SAMBA also tries to provide that has always been 'reverse engineered' and is now 'licensed' instead.

    Geesh...

  • Patented = Documented (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EXTomar (78739) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @01:18PM (#23161466)
    I always thought the classic reason why a company wouldn't patent a proven technology is to avoid documenting it. To file for the patent you would need to document critical detail and behavior which could be something the competition could read up on and build new products on the idea. Or in other words, if they never file for the patent they never have to claim it exists. Keeping it off the books keeps it obscure and keeps it theirs.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by deander2 (26173) *
      you obviously haven't read many recent patent apps. not describing implementation details is the norm. (often the patent holder doesn't even bother coming up with an implementation...just hopes to piggy-back on the work of real engineers)
  • Looking through the list I wonder how many of these patents have been contested and/or how many of these patent applications should be rejected. For instance, under the "Web Browser Federated Sign-On Protocol" Microsoft lists patent applications 2005-0223217-A1 and 2006-0112422-A1. There exists prior art for 2005-0223217-A1 claim 14 and further in A-Select [surfnet.nl] and I think for the rest of the claims in Shibboleth [internet2.edu]. I would have to study 2006-0112422-A1 more in detail, but it looks like about half of the claims th

  • I knew that (Score:3, Funny)

    by Ozric (30691) <ozric&tampabay,rr,com> on Tuesday April 22 2008, @01:59PM (#23162092)
    OH wait.....

    I misread, I thought it said unexplained.

    My Bad
    • While the protocols might not be patented/copyrighted, there would be trade secrets and documentation, that in exchange for the 'licensing', Microsoft provides documentation, perhaps even assistance in the creation of SAMBA.
      • How can a protocol be a trade secret? After all, the machine using it is spewing it! How can a protocol even be copyrighted? After all, it isn't a static expression; that would be useless.

        Which leaves patents -- but a protocol is neither a machine or a process! Which means (arguably) that it can't be patented, either.

        Which leaves documentation.

        But let's think about that "licensing" again... What is being licensed? Compare to music -- the "protocol" in written music is NOT the music, it's the staff, and indi
        • i would argue that a protocol is a tool that is used.. there for it would be patentable..

          you use TCP/IP to transfer data.. you could use IPXSPX.. but TCP/IP is better suited for the net than IPXSPX..

          like wise..

          you use a flathead screwdriver to tighten a screw - you could use a penny.. but the screwdriver works better..

          at one point in history a flathead screw driver would have been inovation and would have been patentable.. as it is an improvement over something else in doing a task.

          i see no reason why a i

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by ratboy666 (104074)
            The "protocol" used with the flat-head screw driver is a slit. There are two parts - the screwdriver (which can be patented) and the screw (which can be patented). The slit (protocol)?

            As you pointed out, a coin can be used instead of the screwdriver. And the receptor may be something other than a screw (say, a snap-tab).

            Is the slit itself patentable?
    • The problem is, that there has been a long period of time between what SAMBA started to create at the beginning and what they have created so far. There are assumptions that have gone into place and there are assumptions that still exist. The issue is how difficult is it going to be for SAMBA to back out of a lot of those assumptions and to redo it all. They'll spend the next 6 months just looking at their code from the access to the protocol info they have and probably find that much of their code would

    • Re:I hope someone will tag the OP as flamebait... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by zappepcs (820751) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @12:57PM (#23161034) Journal
      Well, actually Mr AC, it doesn't have to be skewed against MS. As it happens, it is nearly always skewed against MS because historically speaking, MS has always been screwing other people. Did your grandma ever tell you that story about the little boy who cried wolf too much?

      MS has extinguished competitors, acted unethically for long enough that people don't trust MS to have done anything right or correctly. That's normal people. /. users hate MS even more because it's fun, and well... MS earned it.

      Bad news always travels farther and faster than good news. MS would have to do a lot of good things to reverse their reputation. So that's how it is. No matter what the story is actually about, if it involves MS it will be expected that MS has fucked up again somehow.

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