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ISP Sued By Irish RIAA
Posted by
Soulskill
on Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:11 PM
from the nothing-wrong-here-no-sir dept.
from the nothing-wrong-here-no-sir dept.
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "An ISP in Ireland has been sued by the Big Four record labels because its subscribers have engaged in P2P sharing of the record companies' song files. The record companies claim the ISP should be buying Audible Magic's CopySense, the software being peddled by the RIAA's expert witness, which supposedly would filter out copyright infringement. Of course, not everyone agrees."
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Your Rights Online: NewYorkCountryLawyer Debates RIAA VP 291 comments
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "At Fordham Law School's annual IP Law Conference this year, Slashdot member NewYorkCountryLawyer had a chance to square off with Kenneth Doroshow, a Senior Vice President of the RIAA, over the subject of copyright statutory damages. Doroshow thought the Jammie Thomas verdict of $222,000 was okay, he said, since Ms. Thomas might have distributed 10 million unauthorized copies. NYCL, on the other hand, who has previously derided the $9,250-per-song file verdict as 'one of the most irrational things [he has] ever seen in [his] life in the law', stated at the Fordham conference that the verdict had made the United States 'a laughingstock throughout the world.' An Australian professor on the panel said, 'The comment has been made a few times that America is out of whack and you are a laughingstock in the rest of the world. As the only non-American on the panel, that's true. We do see the cases like Thomas in our newspapers, and we think: "Wow, those crazy Americans, what are they up to now?"
This whole notion of statutory damages is not something that we have within our Copyright Act. You actually have to be able to prove damage for you to be able to be compensated for that.' NYCL also got to debate the 'making available' issue, saying that there was no 'making available' right in US copyright law, despite the insistence of the program's moderator, the 'keynote' speaker, and a 'majority vote' of the audience that there was such a right. The next day, two decisions came down, and a month later yet another decision came down, all rejecting the 'making available' theory."
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fight it (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:fight it (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:fight it (Score:5, Insightful)
Extorsion, maybe?
Parent
Re:fight it (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, I would probably classify Eircom as vastly more evil than the Irish version of the RIAA (IRMA - Irish Recorded Music Association).
Parent
Let me guess... (Score:2)
Here's the only two things you need to know (Score:5, Insightful)
The ISP has no obligation and the *AA can't seem to "educate" themselves out of their problem.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Dilbert: Sanity? Reality? The laws of physics?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously though this one just isn't a runner, the various record label umbrella groups have realised they can't go after every 12 year old with computer access (or in the US case suing indigent men for their shopping trolleys) so they will try to tackle the access, however any company that put th
And things you need to know about Eircom... (Score:3, Insightful)
What does that mean? Well, if a normal business needs to handle a business crisis they will create new products, modify their business model, reduce their costs etc etc.
When Eircom was a semi-state the solution was: write a cheque for the amount you need, put in the post (also a semi-state body) to the respective minister. Minister signs cheque, problem solved.
This mentality didn't necessarily wash when the company was privatized, but it certainly prevailed for a lon
Re:Here's the only two things you need to know (Score:4, Interesting)
This is Ireland. We don't so much have laws here as we have sort of "tribal customs". Over here, even if a law is struck down as unconstitutional, the supreme court has ruled that you can still be imprisoned under it [village.ie]. It used to be illegal for Irish ISPs to hold certain types of data for more than about six months, I believe. It was at one time discovered that Eircom, the ISP mentioned in this article (effectively the Irish AT&T), was retaining this information for three years, the government passed a bill making it mandatory to store it for at least three years.
That's how things work in this country. We're kind of a one party state meets banana republic meets laissez faire capitalism. Basically, laws here are universally subject to interpretation and arbitrary revision. That's when they're not being ignored outright. If Eircom agrees to the censoring and monitoring, then it will become legal. If it doesn't, it won't. I doubt the IRMA is anywhere near as well connected or influential as Eircom representatives, so unless they're willing to pay up, in either bribes or in financing the system, this surveillance simply isn't happening. Anyway, we're all under surveillance anyway [siliconrepublic.com], so this entire issue is rather moot.
Parent
Honda car used to steal my parking spot! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Honda car used to steal my parking spot! (Score:5, Interesting)
Parents of child porn victims sue camera manufacturers for allowing pedophiles to make child porn.
Corporate hacking victims sue computer manufacturers for providing hackers tools to break into their systems.
Violent crime victims sue weapons manufacturers for enabling criminals to harm them.
China sues Western democracies for giving its citizens subversive ideas of freedom and civil liberties.
Parent
Lets burn our public libraries (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lets burn our public libraries (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a very apt comparison.
Books from the library are read there, or borrowed to be returned later. The number of copies in existence remains the same (unless people go to a copy machine to copy the book - a non-trivial and fairly costly operation, probably more costly than going to the book shop and buy yourself a copy).
Libraries can be compared to music/video rental shops (many book libraries also do this). Those disks are rent or lent, and are returned a week or so later.
Music and video downloads (and e-books) however DO increase the number of copies. And copying is as good as free in effort and cost.
Of course the publishers also complain about libraries (not so much, they are considered a given due to their long historical existence), and video rentals. They claim it also lowers sales. Just like reselling used copies of books/CDs/DVDs. But no matter what, on-line file sharing is in a league on its own.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Lets burn our public libraries (Score:5, Informative)
The materials in the libraries are all duly licensed for lending, through a combination of statutory exceptions in the US Code, and, where applicable or gapped, through licensing with the copyright holders permitting such use.
The copyright holders have indeed been compensated, both through license payments from libraries (often on DVDs and CDs and similar materials by acquiring the more-expensive rental copies [which often include media replacement]) and through the inherent copyright law bargain.
Incidentally, many library collections include video and audio content licensed for commercial use, which is a great way for a community organization (say, a church or club) to put on such a performance without having to buy a license or negotiate one with the rightsholders. You just check out the video with the commercial license and you're good to go. Your tax dollars at work, literally.
Parent
Re:Lets burn our public libraries (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
"Obvious ways"? (Score:5, Interesting)
This technology is not foolproof, but it does require filesharers to jump through additional hoops to distribute files. Hardcore filesharers will no doubt toil obsessively to workaround the issue, but some casual downloaders may conclude that the hassle and risks associated with filesharing is becoming greater than the costs of paying $0.89 to get the song from Amazon, etc.
Eliminating %100 of copyright infringement is not a requirement for the RIAA to regard its strategy as successful. Simply making the process risky and aggravating enough that most people will switch to paying for music is enough. Each generation of this cat and mouse game between the "pirates" and the RIAA has resulted in an increased compartmentalization of p2p networks. Sure the "hydra" will grow more heads and live on, but it's hard to ignore that something that could immediately be located and downloaded on Napster in the Year 2000 now frequently takes time to hunt down and leech via bittorent.
Re: (Score:2, Redundant)
first step is to encrypt, when you encrypt something it's not possible to tell it's encrypted, you just can't read whats there. the only way to tell it's encrypted is to monitor a port. this is where you could introduce port hoping, where you use a standard https port to do a handshake where you and the tracker make a randomised set of port changes every 1 hour.
now i know what your going to say - the isp's softw
Re:"Obvious ways"? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Consider this:
Re: (Score:2)
Ya, good thing that's my only choice...
But seriously, how many additional hoops do you think ticking the SSL button is? And hey, it's conceivable that most popular torrent clients in the near future come defaulting to SSL. What do you think the result would be? Do you think the software developers would have to explain when SSL traffic begins to be shaped en mass or would people be more in
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Garbage. Historically what happens is that a tool is created to automate getting past the file sharing restrictions which requires no mo
Sued for not buying something? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
extortion. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:extortion. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The slashdot summary does. TFA says that they are being sued for allowing file sharing on their infrastructure. The fact that they don't use filtering products such as (but not limited to) CopySense is evidence that they are complicit with file sharers.
I'm not saying they're not a pack of F**king idiots who are sure to lose in any justice system where the 'just' part of justice is meaningful, just pointing out that this is not exactly extortion.
Right (Score:5, Interesting)
Greedy bastards
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
For free? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that about sums it up. It is after all not in the network operator's interest to do this, nor is it a legal obligation for them to monitor th
That's nothing, my house was robbed... (Score:5, Insightful)
RIAA wants someone else to do the dirty work: (Score:5, Interesting)
In Australia in recent years there has been a push to stop selling cigarettes to under 18's. There are harsh fines and so forth to both the business and to the individuals who would do the selling.
One smart (or lazy/tricky depending on what way you look at it) cookie decided that as a shop owner who sold tabacco products, he was being asked to do regulatory work on behalf of the state government here who said that he shouldn't sell to minors. He took the government to court - and amazingly won the case. (I couldn't find anything on google though).
THe basic premise is the same here though, the RIAA and governments are imposing rules about what can and can't be done by users of something else, but they want someone else to do all the dirty work imposing the law. It's a bloody great way not to do any work if you ask me - by getting someone else to do it, and pay for it.
While I support copyright, I think that they should stop trying to get ISP's to do all the dirty work.
Fighting Back (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems to me that a good way to fight the RIAA is to turn their whole numbers game on its head. Hit them with so many lawsuits that their legal strategy collapses.
Would it be possible for law schools in various countries to assemble "how to" kits that would allow average people to harass the big labels, individually or collectively, in this way? I'm not sure what grounds would be best to surpass the "nuisance" threshold and protect the litigants from charges of malicious prosecution (or whatever it might be called), but something must surely exist.
Can you imagine the drain on their financial and manpower resources if the RIAA suddenly found itself on the receiving end of 15,000 suits in 20 countries?
Packet Shaping (Score:3, Interesting)
What about false positives? (Score:5, Interesting)
I suppose the question is, how do you detect false positives, and when they happen who do I sue?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bad Title (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bad Title (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Bad Title (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Smells like standard record company BS (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That the idea of file sniffing software is sheer idiocy, prima facie. Why? Because all you have to do is "compress" the mp3 into a zip file, and bingo: no more mp3, just a zip, and if they start opening up every zip that's emailed or set up in the net, the entire interweb thingie would grind to an instant halt.
All of this was dealt with at Napster (I used to work there) and we scenario-ised all different combinations of spoofing and clamping etc. We thought of goi
Re:Smells like standard record company BS (Score:4, Interesting)
I wouldn't be too sure - the infrastructure needed for Phorm's 'targeted advertising' could easily be adapted to inspect more of the data - it already intercepts HTTP requests, and it's not a great step from there to data inspection (though the lookups are going to cost a lot of latency).
Once the ISPs allow themselves to be corrupted by Phorm, expect to see packet inspection proliferate massively.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Most people don't work on a commission or have an unlimited amount of funds. Normal people have a certain FIXED INCOME* (salary, wages, retirement, etc). I don't know about Ireland but we're paying a hell of a lot more for gasoline here in the US. Every dollar I spend at the gas station is a dollar I can't spend on a CD.
-mcgrew
*If it's a fixed income how come I'm always broke?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Take that, Audible Magic!