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Data Centers Expected to Pollute More Than Airlines by 2020
Posted by
timothy
on Sat May 03, 2008 10:25 PM
from the it's-all-that-smut-in-the-wires dept.
from the it's-all-that-smut-in-the-wires dept.
Dionysius, God of Wine and Leaf, writes with a link to a New York Times story on a source of pollution that doesn't leave contrails: "The world's data centers are projected to surpass the airline industry as a greenhouse gas polluter by 2020, according to a new study by McKinsey & Co. ... [C]omputer servers are used at only 6 percent of their capacity on average, while data center facilities as a whole are used at 56 percent of peak performance."
Data centers, though, might have more options for going green than airlines do, given present technology.
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More Options? (Score:5, Interesting)
Most datacenters are contracted out. The companies hiring the datacenters do so based on price. And clean fuels have an enormous amount of catching up to do if they ever want to compete with coal. But let's say that a carbon tax is applied. Then these datacenter contractors will simply move their operations to somewhere that doesn't have these taxes. Heck, why do you think there are so many datacenters in the US?
But what if the companies hiring these datacenter contractors decide that they want to be green? Then these datacenter contractors will simply do some half-assed unproven carbon-offset like dumping iron into the oceans or planting trees in a place that can't support them (cheap real estate like tundra or desert wins here--especially if it is done in the 'future' while the offset company is preparing its sites).
The only real solution is the one that applies to the entire electricity grid. Either you need to massively subsidize renewable fuels or slightly subsidize nuclear power to deal with your entire electrical grid carbon problem. You have to do subsidies because you are competing with the energy prices with places like China.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's very expensive to move a datacenter. It's not just the building and server hardware, but local infrastructure, too. The biggest datacenters are in California for a reason.
Therefore, the carbon tax need only be enough that taking the premium on greener energy tech is cheeper than taking the tax + moving and rebuilding infrastructure.
Re:More Options? (Score:5, Insightful)
Until they move the large cross-Pacific network connections to the Hoover Dam, it's going to make sense to keep data centers near network lines.
Parent
Re:Data centers in tundra environments (Score:3, Interesting)
Although the other thing typical of tundra environments is the lack of sunlight, which may be more of a problem than the cold.
In 8 years, CPUs will use far less power. Ad? (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I think the major issue is this: The people who design datacenters are some of the smartest people in the world. They've certainly thought about the issues. They know the cost of electricity.
They know that Intel is delivering 45 nanometer CPU designs. They know that Intel is working on 32 nanometer CPUs, and that there will eventually be 22 nanometer processors, for delivery in 8 years. Each new processor architecture uses less power. So, the problem will solve itself, to some degree.
The article in the New York Times is ignorant, meant for ignorant readers who don't know any better. Maybe someone took money; maybe the NYT article is really a public relations stunt, a way for McKinsey & Company [wikipedia.org] to attract as clients managers who have little technical experience.
A lot of people who talk about being "green", are people who are green in the sense of having little experience.
Parent
Re:In 8 years, CPUs will use far less power. Ad? (Score:4, Insightful)
New CPUs may have much better performance/watt, but the overall performance is increased too, thus the amount of actual power used stays the same or even increases.
There's also increasingly bloated software, all this managed high level language code etc, which uses far more energy to do the same work. And modern powerful servers which sit idle for the most part.
You could easily make lower performing servers using modern techniques, and reduce power consumption hugely... Modern embedded processors are faster than high end server processors from a few years ago, and yet use a small fraction of the power, but they wouldn't be good running modern bloated apps in high level languages.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Modern datacenters sell either tiles (to place a rack), rackspace (for a few servers) or virtual computing power.
The cost of each is reflected in the price so smart customers will move away from discrete hardware and towards virtual servers.
That way you can literally run hundreds of low-power servers on one high-power machine.
Low-power servers are nice, but they're not failure-resistant and the sheer num
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I my experience designing buildings, including call centers, data centers, and server rooms, the specifications for the equipment to be used typcially isn't finalized until after the construction of the building is complete.
To guess that evident continuing improvements in computer efficiencies will cause your data center to u
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Why apply a carbon tax, when most coal fired power plants are located in locations where an algae based carbon recovery system (and combo pollution scrubbing system) can create not only vast amounts of vegetable oil, but even larger quantities of vegetable matter that can be feed to livestock, or combusted for energy, or converted to ethanol.
If you required all coal fired plants to use an algae based carbon recovery system, you would instantly create a massive s
Nuclear Power Insurance Subsidy (Score:3, Interesting)
In order for the first and any subsequent private nuclear reactors to even be built,
the Congress passed a law [wikipedia.org] capping the amount nuclear reactor operators could be held liable. The operators are required to obtain $300 million per plant in insurance. If claims go beyond that, the industry is on the hook to provide a pool of money to pay claims beyond that $300 million. They are not required to provide this money until an accident oc
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
didn't see that the first go round.. That isn't really true, China has a notorious reputation for producing sub standard products. It's a reputation well earned, it's true that producing a higher quality product costs more, and even companies known for their quality are sub contracting parts of their businesses to china to stay cost competitive.. but you don't have to compete with china for cost of energy.
w
Excellent (Score:5, Funny)
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And hyrdocarbon is an organic compound isn't it?
So is plastic
Plastic was originally made from carbohydrates, specifically cellulose, and thus plants such as trees. Kodak [si.edu] the camera company used a method of making Cellulose acetate, a type of plastic, in 1908. If you're old enough you may recall Cellophane [wikipedia.org], the plastic wrap for sandwiches and such, it got it's name from what it was made from, cellulose. Today there's renewed interest in bioplastic [wikipedia.org].
Falcon
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
But seriously from what I read (I believe on New Scientist but I can't seem to f
Which is why a GOOD hosting business uses SOLAR (Score:5, Interesting)
NONE OF THIS CARBON TRADING MALARKY. And they're super flexible because they're not huge yet.
Located in San Diego I believe. Phil, their big tech cheese, is VERY generous with his time.
Vote with your feet, clean with your wallet, live by your choices.
Re:Which is why a GOOD hosting business uses SOLAR (Score:5, Interesting)
Aiso.net is a smallish hosting provider utilizing ACTUAL SOLAR to power their datacenter,
Another one is Solarhost.co.uk [solarhost.co.uk] in the UK and SolarHost [webhostingstuff.com] in Florida.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.solarhost.com/ [solarhost.com] looks like it is extremely unreliable.
It is sort of nice to have an option to http://www.aiso.net/ [aiso.net].
That seems unlikely (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
2500 servers all converting from AC to DC = sizable loss of juice. Poorly designed data center rackspace using 10-30% (straight from my ass) more A/C than they would with efficient installations. I'm talking about force air systems that are misused etc.
Installing passive heat exchange systems will also help when they become available.
The point is that there are MANY things that can be done to cut d
AC/DC conversion is not that wasteful (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, newer data centers tend to be wired with DC power, so that there is only AC/DC conversion at the UPS. DC/DC conversion can be made even more efficient.
Contrast this with running a gasoline engine, which is about 20% efficient.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
false economies (Score:5, Insightful)
let me ask you this - what resources would be consumed if we DIDN'T use computers for these jobs? how many forests would we cut down to store the data in the worlds data centers?
i think people who write this kind of dribble lack any perspective. computers are energy savers, not wasters.
Re:false economies (Score:4, Insightful)
If we measure greenhouse gas production, not as an absolute but as a percentage relative to what is actually required to do the useful component of the work, my guess would be that data centres do not work out to be that green.
Parent
Which only makes sense (Score:4, Insightful)
RS
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nuclear Powered Aircraft (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Nuclear Powered Aircraft (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Which only makes sense (Score:4, Interesting)
You are either woefully underinformed to the point where you are completely unqualified to contribute to this conversation, stupid, or an astroturfer.
There are currently two biofuel technologies which are far superior to any topsoil-based biofuel. One of them is Butanol. The other is Algae-based biofuels which can include Ethanol and Biodiesel (mostly the latter.) You can also make biodiesel out of animal fat, and Tyson chicken is building a test plant to do this in Germany.
The USDOE did a test project in which they determined that it is possible to capture around 80% of the CO2 output of coal or oil-burning plants and feed it to algae in inexpensive raceway ponds. The water in these ponds is approximately one foot deep and is circulated by paddlewheel - a job best done using PV solar. The water needs the most circulation during the periods of most intense sunlight. You could also tent the pools and use them for distillation; the process can be done with fresh or salt water, so it can also provide desalination.
Butanol is made from a bacteria first used to produce the ingredients for TNT. This bacteria produces ethanol, butanol, and acetone, all of which can be burned in a typical gasoline-powered car. In fact, Butanol is a direct, 1:1 replacement for gasoline, and it is the most voluminous product of the reaction - which can consume any organic matter.
There are also numerous other options for producing biofuels which should be considered. For example, we currently use extremely inefficient methods for processing sewage. By using a system of ponds which are filled from below, and which utilize a subaquatic plastic tent to capture methane gas using this efficient and attractive (since it is cheap and mostly invisible) method. Methane can be used most places in which we use propane or natural gas, and most especially for cooking. Just to prove the simplicity of the concept, consider that you can get cooking gas by raising pigs, shoveling their shit into a hole, and running a hose from the (covered) hole to a BBQ burner. This scheme also fixes heavy metals.
It is true that biofuels based on topsoil are retarded. In fact, our current large-scale methods of agriculture are simply unsustainable. The crop waste must be returned to the soil, not burned as we commonly do today! Otherwise, the soil will be depleted over time, no matter what you do to it. It will simply be depleted of more specific things.
Parent
Nuclear power plants (Score:5, Insightful)
I am aware of the end-of-life problem surrounding nuclear power, but you got to admit that if your goal is to avoid burning stuff, you cannot get any better than this. Especially in crowded, not-so-sunny Europe, where you cannot even make a "what if we paved the desert with solar cells" hypothesis.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not? Africa isn't too far south of Europe. It's not any further than the Eastern USA is from the deserts of the USA, mostly in the southwest. The reason that doesn't matter is because we have a national p
never mind the transmission loss. (Score:4, Informative)
Transmission loss over long distances is only a problem with AC. Transmitting electricity as DC at high voltages reduces the loss. Here's a page on using DC in Data centers: Edison's Revenge: Will DC power rise again? [computerworld.com].
FalconParent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I went to a seminar on building new data centers. There we a part about location of new data center. The favorite places in Europe were France and Germany, because of cheap power generated by non-polluting nuclear power plant.
Ah but nuclear power is polluting. Nuclear power pollutes from the ground to the ground, cradle to cradle.
I am aware of the end-of-life problem surrounding nuclear power, but you got to admit that if your goal is to avoid burning stuff, you cannot get any better than this.
It's
Re:Nuclear power plants (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a useful observation to make. Human activity is polluting. If you're not polluting, you're either dead or not doing anything.
Parent
Re:Nuclear power plants (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Anyone else remember... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anyone else remember... (Score:5, Informative)
Some of us define pollution as "anything that causes severe enough damage to our environment to make life difficult for us humans." And guess what, low-level ozone, ozone layer depleting compounds, acid rain precursors, CO2, volatile hydrocarbons, fertilizer runoff, and a variety of other things all count under that definition.
I can be really selfish and even somewhat short-sighted and still come to the conclusion that there is a problem on a massive scale. I have no particular need for us to not create any CO2, but it should be obvious to anyone who bothers to look at the data and the studies that we can't continue on our current pace.
Parent
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If the people doing archaeological dating have to worry about it, I'd say it's major.
Re:Anyone else remember... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
data centers are like steam engines (Score:5, Interesting)
A little more to it, here (Score:3, Insightful)
Some newly used rack space in datacenters actually offsets other daily fuel burning - sometimes a lot of it.
I say STFU, until.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You get more radiation from eating a BANANA than you do from living next door to a nuclear power plant. And while on the subject, I used to think that these people were simply "NIMBY's", the age old Not In My Back Yard type of folks. But these people aren't NIMBY's, These people are BANANAS! Build Almost Nothing Anywhere Near Anything. They are flat out anti-progress and they do it in the nicest way "we're trying to help".
I say BULLSHIT! You have three choices: Nuclear Power, Agrarian Society, Global Warming. Pick one.
Flat out wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Electricity generation *can*, but it doesn't need to. The simple fact is that we can generate electricity without any carbon emissions with hydroelectric where available and nuclear where not. There's no justifiable reason to attribute carbon emissions from a coal fired plant to it's clients; alternatives are available, but regulators have dropped the ball in allowing coal to be used.
No Internet by 2050 (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no technology in existance that can provide all of the USA's electricity without carbon, except for nuclear. Things like wind and solar can only provide about 10-15% of the USA's current demand because they only work when the sun shines and the wind blows.
Anyway, 80% emission reductions by 2050 would require that the USA give up a bunch of things, like cars, air conditioning, TV, hair dryers, air planes, buses, and computers. That is because the presidential candidate likes to toss out pleasant figures like 80 by 50 without consideration of reality.
Population growth makes 80 by 50 impossible without a transforming technology like a nuclear powered economy with hydrogen transportation and storage of energy. It's not impossible to achieve, but politicians only like to talk about happy, fuzzy goals absent concrete plans to achieve them or admiting that they are extremely expensive.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For those of you who are keeping score on who's talking the talk and who's walking the walk I offer this:
A tale of two houses [snopes.com]
I need to change my pants.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Economy is about resources. Money is merely one storage medium, and an imperfect one at that.