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Microsoft Acknowledges NBC's Wish is Its Command
Posted by
timothy
on Mon May 19, 2008 07:19 AM
from the it-will-be-as-you-wish-my-master dept.
from the it-will-be-as-you-wish-my-master dept.
theodp writes "Responding to questions about why some users of Windows Vista Media Center were prevented from recording the NBC Universal TV shows 'American Gladiator' and 'Medium,' Microsoft has acknowledged that Windows Media Centers will block users from recording TV shows at the request of a broadcaster. 'Microsoft included technologies in Windows based on rules set forth by the (Federal Communications Commission),' wrote a Microsoft spokeswoman, apparently referring to an FCC proposal that the courts struck down in 2005. 'Microsoft has put the requirements of broadcasters above what consumers want,' said the EFF's Danny O'Brien. 'They've imposed restrictions way beyond what the law requires. Customers need to know who Microsoft is listening to and how that affects their equipment. Right now, the only way customers know what Microsoft has agreed to is when the technology they've bought suddenly stops working. Microsoft needs to come clean and tell its customers what deals it has made.'"
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NBC Activates Broadcast Flag 430 comments
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "NBC activated the 'broadcast flag' on a number of shows this week, ranging from American Gladiator to Medium, which prevented compliant programs like Windows Media Center from recording them. The matter is being 'looked into,' but that doesn't tell us whether it was an accident or a ploy to see how outraged viewers would be at being stripped of the time-shifting rights they've enjoyed ever since Sony v. Universal. Just in case it's the latter, it wouldn't hurt to let them know what you think."
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I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder why... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I wonder why... (Score:5, Funny)
Google helps the Indian government make a man eat from the same bowl he craps in.
Microsoft saves users from recording American Gladiators.
As part of their competition with Google strategy, I think Microsoft just stole the right to the "Do no evil" slogan.
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Interesting)
It really makes you wonder what MS had to gain by doing this. Were they paid? Was it some sort of weird deal to get content providers annoyed at everyone BUT MS for not respecting the broadcast flag thus far? Why is a multi-billion dollar company bending over and taking it from tripe like American Gladiators?
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Funny)
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With Tivo TV is no longer real-time. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever since I got Tivo, I *never* watch programs in real-time. If I can't record it, I am not watching it.
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Re:With Tivo TV is no longer real-time. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Informative)
You can watch it on the Tivo all you want but that is all you can do with it. If you look at the information about a program recorded with the broadcast flag it should tell you that.
I believe I recorded a show with a broadcast flag a long time ago and it said that. Guess I'll have to record one of these shows just to double check.
Not sure what the Tivo series 3 and Tivo HD do with it. Should be the same.
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft has to program for more then one country you know. There is a wide range a laws and regulations that end up going into the media center programming - and yes, some of the programming will bleed over into the American version.
In Canada we see shows being blocked from recording using that flag all the time. Yes, its ok for a broadcaster here to stop us from recording a program.
I'm not saying i agree with it, but it's not as if Microsoft was screwing around with Americans just because they wanted to be a jerk.
I would put more blame on the broadcaster for playing around with the flag when they shouldn't.
In the meantime... Microsoft should release a patch that stops the DRM for those in America. It won't happen, but hey.
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Interesting)
And it's *SO* difficult to write code to conditionalize behaviour based on locale, right? It's not like there's something in the OS that tells the computer which country it's in.
"In Canada we see shows being blocked from recording using that flag all the time. Yes, its ok for a broadcaster here to stop us from recording a program."
Reference please, or I'm gonna have to call bullshit.
Google returns a ton of old references about Canada *thinking* about talking about it, but not a single instance that it's actually in use, but no reference to any law that was passed regarding it.
Your MS apologism suggests that the US is on the lenient side of what's required, when in fact it's on the strict side.
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=390326&highlight=broadcast+flag/ [tivocommunity.com]
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=385828&highlight=broadcast+flag/ [tivocommunity.com]
There are too many steps along the broadcast path where a stupid user can accidentally reset the flag and they unfortunately do so far too often.
None of the alarm-ringing "articles" on this have offered reason to believe that NBC-qua-NBC set this flag vs. it having been set by a local affiliate station or local cable provider.
FURTHERMORE, the CNet reporters have failed to understand the distinction between the broadcast flag the FCC was not allowed to impose and the broadcast flag that CableLabs is allowed to impose on anybody making a system capable of using a CableCard (which both Tivo and MS do).
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Informative)
I'm definitely a nerd. With two kids. As an example of why I don't have an extra four or six hours to tinker, I spent last Saturday afternoon at a Pokemon tournament (can't stand Pokemon myself); in the morning I took one of them to his martial arts class. Sunday was food shopping and yard work. That's life as a dad, and I wouldn't have it any other way... but I don't have copious amounts of nerd time.
So, in other words, while I love tinkering, sometimes I just need stuff that works out of the box.
I get the same reaction from using Ubuntu instead of one of the other distributions, or switching to Windows for some applications... I'm sorry, I need stuff that works for me. That's all there is to it.
But to go back on topic, if ever the Tivo stopped recording shows I liked, I'd take the time out to build a Myth box, no doubt. Face it, as I mentioned, I don't even get to watch much TV, so when I do it's a bit more important to me that I get what I want.
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Insightful)
Fair supposition but I think the answer is the same reason many Slashdotters (myself included) have Macs - they have an intuitive UI and for the most part Just Work(TM). I have had a TiVo for six years now and have always found the ease of use in searching programs, setting up "Season Passes" and finding related programs to be better than any other DVR I have tried. My wife also finds it much more usable than the alternatives and we both a have a "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" attitude towards the setup.
It doesn't mean I won't put together a MythTV box someday, but given how little of my time I think TV is worth (and my time is in shorter supply than my money), TiVo works pretty nicely for me. Your mileage, of course, may vary...
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Interesting)
They don't care whether it's movies or tv or music. it's money they seem to think they're losing so send in the lawyers!
The funny thing is I *was* a huge SG1 fan, even had seasons 1-7 on DVD. I missed the first half of SG: Atlantis due to being without cable for a few months, so I just went online to catch up and figured I'd be 'nice' and do the same for other people in the same boat. I still have the downloaded episodes, and you know what? I've never watched them, nor have I watched SG1 since.
Left a really bad taste in my mouth so I'm doing the best thing I can...NOT watching them anymore. Of course if I was more motivated I'd write them a letter but hey...haha
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Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag (Score:5, Funny)
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defective by design... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:defective by design... (Score:5, Interesting)
Douglas Adams is often quoted with something along this line:
"Most TV stations are in the business to deliver customers to advertisers. The BBC is in the business to deliver TV programmes to people."
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Re:defective by design... (Score:5, Insightful)
The interesting thing about manufacturing is that there are many companies whose product is another company's raw material.
To media companies, your eyeballs are their product. They cultivate and fertilize it just like industrial farming. And just like industrial farming, they don't really care what's good for the product as long as it has sufficient yield.
To advertisers, your eyeballs are the raw material which they cook and add some yeast to, then let you ferment for a while, and in the end they hopefully produce a rich full-bodied pocketbook.
Don't mistake your place in the chain - if television was beer production, you'd be the malt or the hops growing in the field. Your only purpose is to be distilled and have all of your value drained away before being discarded as animal feed - after all, feces is an important fertilizer for growing malt and hops!
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Great News! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Great News! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a pathetic second best to have lots of people getting shafted, just so a company can be "punished".
The end goal is great technology and happy people. How we get there is much less important. Don't put politics before the people we're supposedly trying to help.
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Re:Great News! (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Great News! (Score:5, Insightful)
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"Technologies" (Score:5, Insightful)
What is it with Microsoft and the word "technologies"?
Heeding a fucking bit is "technologies"?
[Clicks fingers] Oh, sorry, that's marketdoublespeak to hide the fact that they're selling stuff that takes its orders from someone other than the customer who bought it.
Microsoft has been screwing us over for years (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's an old but great example. Back when Win95 was released you could not natively use long file names with 16-bit apps. However, there was a product called "Name-It!" which did allow that function. In other words it was possible and quite easy to enable the function, but Microsoft chose NOT to implement it. Why? Because long file names was a well liked feature among customers and denying it to customers would give incentive to upgrade to new 32-bit programs.
Another great example is Messenger, the chat program not the service. Microsoft originally made it nearly impossible to get rid of. Even if you edited your sysoc.inf file and uninstalled Messenger, it'll suddenly come back. Even if you deleted the subfolder under Program Files, it would mysteriously come back. Obviously Microsoft considered its chat war against AOL more important than ease of use for its customers.
And of course there's product activation. We were told it was to stop piracy, but that was bull-shit. You can easy obtain pirated copies of XP and Vista. Let's face it, if piracy has been decreased, then why is Vista Microsoft's most expensive OS? Why aren't they passing the savings back to us? Clearly product activation is not stopping piracy at all. Once again, the real purpose of product activation is to screw over the paying customer who wants to install the OS he paid for on both of his systems.
And lets not forget how Microsoft's Office products are constantly screwing with file formats to make the later versions incompatible with earlier versions. Once again, this is NOT done to make it easier for paying customers. It's merely leverage to get those customer paying again and again.
It'd be really hard to be passionate for Microsoft's products. It's hard to be passionate for anything that nickel and dimes you at every turn. That treats you like a criminal. And sees you merely as a cash cow to be milked at every chance.
Remote controlled PR-disaster (Score:5, Informative)
There is no better way to illustrate what restrictions DRM will have on the users day-to-day life, and Vista users will not like these demonstrations of Microsofts built-in Big Brother TM.
Basking in the love... (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this the place where those of us who loathe Vista as a bloated, DRM-ridden piece of crap that just can't wait to rat on its owners come for an apology from all those people who accused us of spreading FUD about it?
Just wondering...
NBC should drop the broadcast flag....or perish (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't really care if Vista respects the flag or not. NBC, by putting it in the stream, thwarts its use, legitimate or not. In the YouTube/Tube world, they have *so* scratched themselves off the list.
Let's see-- was that good for marketshare, branding, asset value, shareholder value, or compennsation? Hullo?
My VCR Still Works (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as there is analog out, I'll be able to record my favorite shows. Just retarded you have to go through all that.
Is it really any surprise MSFT puts business interests ahead of user interests? It's been that way a long time.
NBC and Microsoft pattern (Score:4, Informative)
31 Aug 2007: NBC pulls all content from iTunes Store.
6 May 2008: NBC puts content on Zune Store.
Now: NBC has Microsoft block Windows Media Center from recording certain shows.
What other wonderful developments can we expect?
The Last Straw. (Score:5, Interesting)
However, Microsofts recent performance has been pretty disgraceful, enough to force change for me. I point to three incidents - This one with the broadcast flag, the recent shutdown of the Microsoft Music Validation servers, and the release of the emails where it showed that senior management had no idea how to treat customers or partners during the months leading up to the release of Vista.
How hard is it for Microsoft to treat their customers OK? I mean, the broadcast flag incident shows they bend over for the broadcast networks, even though the networks business model doesn't even require this. Why do they do this to their customers? Obviously, the networks are paying Microsoft, but surely they can't be paying as much as customers pay for licenses to use Vista/XP. Why treat your greatest revenue stream like a POS - like they're stupid?
With regard to the Music Server incident, a number of customers have paid for music, these are valuable customers again, and they are having their servers shut down so they can't play their music beyond their next upgrade/reinstall. How low is that. I mean, how much more poorly can you treat your customers. How hard is it for Microsoft to keep a few servers running to validate that music, to say to the customers, look, we'll keep this going as a sign that we give a
As for the emails, I don't know where to begin. They treated HP like
It really pains me to use Vista after reading this stuff. This isn't a complaint about Vista or whatever, its an OK operating system, its a lot easier to use than any Linux variant, and I find it stable now. But I can't keep using it beyond my current hardware iteration. I'll keep using it at work, but from a moral point of view, I just can't keep using it personally. You just can't keep treating people like that, and I feel like a gullible fool giving Microsoft more money. I am pleased that there are alternatives at last, be it Apple or a future Linux that will be more innovative and user friendly by the time my current hardware dies.
I pay for advertisement (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, the internet was not created to be yet another form of advertising media, but that is what it has become and somehow people actually believe that is what it's there for -- they don't see it as a corruption of its original intent.
I bought some DVDs over the weekend only to find that the first 5, unskippable, minutes were advertisements for other things.
Why should I have to pay for advertisements being shoved in my face?
I once worked for a weekly news rag and we fought spam hard. Meanwhile, our own sales people were constantly pushing and stepping over the line when it came to their own email behaviors. As a company that is all about advertisement, you'd think they'd be more sympathetic to the "needs of the other marketers" out there. But in their defense, I suppose, they published a paper and didn't shove it down anyone's throat... and it was a free paper too, so no one actually paid to see these ads. (This is about as legitimate as it can get) Eve so, I couldn't stand working there any longer so I don't. I hate marketing. It simply corrupts everything it touches.
Mister Rogers already settled this issue (Score:5, Interesting)
"Some public stations, as well as commercial stations, program the 'Neighborhood' at hours when some children cannot use it. I think that it's a real service to families to be able to record such programs and show them at appropriate times. I have always felt that with the advent of all of this new technology that allows people to tape the 'Neighborhood' off-the-air, and I'm speaking for the 'Neighborhood' because that's what I produce, that they then become much more active in the programming of their family's television life. Very frankly, I am opposed to people being programmed by others. My whole approach in broadcasting has always been 'You are an important person just the way you are. You can make healthy decisions.' Maybe I'm going on too long, but I just feel that anything that allows a person to be more active in the control of his or her life, in a healthy way, is important."
Re:Nothing to see here (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft has been putting too much faith into its monopoly position. The more people this affects, the more people WILL move to alternative systems, and the more those alternative systems will improve.
DRM will never survive.
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Re:Nothing to see here (Score:5, Interesting)
MacroVision ACP, anyone?
Yes, you can easily filter that out with a little box you buy for a couple of bucks if you're affected by it, but you're definitely viewing things a bit too rose-colored on the whole copy-protection front if you think that this sort of thing is new.
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Indeed... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Nothing to see here (Score:4, Insightful)
Huh? That is the absolutely dumbest question I've heard all week (but it's Monday). There are a lot of flavors of Linux, there's Sun, there's Be, there's Apple. or did I misunderastand the question?
Are you a Microsoft employee, did you get to slashdot by mistake somehow. or are you just trolling?
-mcgrew
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Re:Nothing to see here (Score:4, Interesting)
You spend over a hundred dollars to upgrade a product, it won't work as advertised, and than just just say "oh well I'll download it?" That's not how I would react.
No, if you bought Vista because of the commercials that tell you how it's a "mddia center" and you find out that your "media center" won't work, you're going to be pissed.
And "something else to record it with" includes Linux (or other UNIX clone like Apple or Be) and MythTV.
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Re:Nothing to see here (Score:5, Insightful)
I add a nice pchdtv video card, which does not detect the broadcast flag, and I have nothing to worry about. Plus, I can burn dvd's of my recordings, and many other things.
Windows media center has a number of problems, and crashes too. However, because it is windows, people ignore it. Myth is just as stable. And can be tested before buying (since mythbuntu at least has a livecd)
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Re:Nothing to see here (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem with stuff like MythTV is that it does not appeal to the average DVR user. Most people who use a Media Center PC and can set it up probably have no idea what a SVN is or how to operate something like MythTV.
This [mythtv.org] is not newbie friendly. It's easy to say "MythTV, MythTV" and espouse the benefits of it, but you're not going to get people to use it if it is not easy to set up.
When you have an installer that you can click on and get the program working without having to mess with Linux and command lines (like WinMyth [sourceforge.net]), THEN it will have a chance in the consumer market. Until then, the average user will put up with it or just hook up the ol' VCR.
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Re:Damned either way (Score:4, Insightful)
You seriously underestimate powers of monopoly and lack of knowledge of substitutes.
Sorry.
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Re:Damned either way (Score:5, Informative)
I had to point out that this is incorrect, in both its substance and conclusion. The common chatter in pubs for nearly a decade leading up to 1776 was that the "sheep" (as you want to call them) -- i.e., the common people -- were ready to take up arms to expel the British presence in the colonies. This was in no small part due to the quartering of British troops in private American homes, and the attendant problems of having a large standing army permanently hanging out in American cities without an enemy to fight.
The lesson here is not that people will do what they're told. Just the opposite. If you push enough people for a long enough time, you build an undercurrent of resentment that will eventually manifest in a dramatic way. Put another way, get off your goddamn elitist high horse about how the unwashed masses are idiotic sheep. People are not as dumb or as docile as you want to believe.
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Re:Damned either way (Score:5, Insightful)
The majority of the proles will bitch and complain, but they will still come home to Daddy - in this case, Microsoft - when it comes time to upgrade.
The handful of people with enough brains to see this sort of shit coming aren't suffering.
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Re:Power To the Corporates! (Score:5, Funny)
I sure hope they leave the commercials in!
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Re:Reminds me of ... (Score:5, Informative)
It would help the argument a lot if people would stop posting the link to Peter Gutman's first paper. He already has acknowledged that some facts were based on pre-release versions of Vista, and Microsoft trial-balloons.
The newer slideshow [cypherpunks.to] addresses much the same issues, without the minor holes the MS astroturfers can use to misdirect attention away from the main points.
MartParent
Re:How fast will a hack appear for this ? (Score:5, Informative)
It is, the fix is here [ubuntu.com].
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Re:Blaming Microsoft? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, I think most people here want(ed) MS to fight their battle for them, and got pissed when they didn't. Oddly enough MS weighed up a fight they couldn't have won (there's no way the media industry would have let them off with not implementing copy prevention measures and still enable Windows to play HD content) versus their customer's likely desire to play HD stuff on their PCs, and decided the only way they could have.
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Re:Blaming Microsoft? (Score:4, Informative)
I guess you didn't RTFA or at least the summary. Consumers are already negatively affected when they are blocked from recording their shows from NBC. For some TV programs, there may be re-runs. For live TV shows, there may be no way to record them again.
It is up to MS whether or not to honor the broadcast flag. They have chosen to do so while Tivo does not. MythTV does not. The United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit has already ruled that the FCC could not force manufacturers to adhere to it.
Huh? Blu-ray has nothing to do with Windows. In fact, MS went against Blu-ray for HD-DVD. However, the point of the article is that MS is taking away the rights of consumer to record broadcast programs and play them back.
Again, this article is about people not being able to record their favorite programs on their Media Center. This is not about file sharing. You do not have rights to alter the media, however, you do have a right to record and store it. In Sony v. Universal [wikipedia.org], the Supreme Court ruled that consumers can record whole programs and watch them later (called time-shifting).
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