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New Agreement May End the Cable Box
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed May 28, 2008 04:47 AM
from the but-you'll-have-to-buy-yet-another-new-tv dept.
from the but-you'll-have-to-buy-yet-another-new-tv dept.
esocid clues us to news that Sony and the National Cable and Telecommunications Association have come to agreement on the way forward for two-way TV without set-top boxes. The actual agreement was not made public, pending review by other members of the Consumer Electronics Association, and as a result the coverage of the agreement is uniformly pretty incoherent. The background is that the NCTA and the CEA submitted competing proposals to the FCC on how to handle two-way, interactive TV services. None of the articles I turned up made clear what the future of the CableCard is to be. This was an interim solution to allow competition in set-top box manufacture, but its adoption has been plagued with problems. "Sony and the cable companies — Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Cox, Charter, Cablevision, and Bright House Networks — agreed to adopt: the Java-based 'tru2way' solution powered by CableLabs; new streamlined technology licenses; and new ways for all those involved to cooperate in the development of tru2way technology at CableLabs."
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Species traitors (Score:5, Insightful)
Engineer: Faster, cheaper, more reliable, more efficient.
Businessman: Slightly less annoying, but still entirely arbitrary, restrictions on how you can what you already paid for.
Next time you wonder "what the hell has gone wrong us as a species", ask yourself which of those two run the world.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit...
They run it due to greed, period.
Ppl are upset and raise hell over it, ppl find Dilbert
hilarious because they see relational irony in it.
The only ppl that want that are the corrupt paid off power
brokers in DC that got elected on false promises, and
by screwing the American ppl.
Ask the "people" in India if they wanted the Union Carbide Disaster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster [wikipedia.org]
Engineering things well costs more, and all the DR
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Greed led to the telegraph, telephone, electric light, automobile, airplane, and integrated circuit.
If things stay as they are we will never see a Star Trek like civilization because we are too wrapped up in making money and actually engineering things to NOT last so they can sell more.
Computers are lasting longer these days because the software curve is slowing. It used to be that many people would replace their systems every 2-3 years; that has slowed to 3-5 years. Cars
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes but is that greed? As I see it there are two definitions of 'greed'.
Def 1)'I want money'
Def 2)'Fuck everyone else I want MORE money then I need by any means.'
Def 1 is fine, everyone needs money to live. There is nothing wrong with getting a job so you can make money to survive. The second one is the problem. It'
Re:Species traitors (Score:5, Insightful)
Businessman : Because I can
There, fixed that for you.
Parent
Re:Species traitors (Score:5, Insightful)
Businessman: Because people want it.
Just in case you were wondering why businessmen run the world.
Parent
Related links (Score:3, Informative)
Many Analog TV Watchers Aren't Aware of Upcoming Switchover [slashdot.org]
FCC Says Analog TV Lives Until 2012 [slashdot.org]
Set-top already gone (Score:5, Funny)
Set-top boxes have been gone for ages..
flat-screen TVs are just too thin for that
That's not the only reason they have cable boxes. (Score:5, Insightful)
A standard is good for consumers, not for cable companies.
Re:That's not the only reason they have cable boxe (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I find it hard to believe that three people (Comcast sent two monkeys to set up my last service, Charter sent one the y
Re:That's not the only reason they have cable boxe (Score:5, Insightful)
Cable companies DESPERATELY want to force cable boxes on everyone for 3 main reasons.
1 - it allows them to cut their installer workforce by 2/3rd's. if you can leave the CATV connection to every home live and use cable boxes to disconnect service you save way more money and can increase profits and executive salaries.
2 - It allows demographic data collection. right now they pay Nielsen and Scarborough for Demo data. this is expensive and old data (last month, Last quarter). By forcing the use of cable boxes I can gather and monitor demographic data hour by hour and minute by minute. I can tell advertisers that 65,000 people in the #23 market saw their ad. This allows my sales people to pressure the customer (not you, people that BUY ad's are the customer you are the product) to buy more.
3 - Content protection. By going cable box only it eliminates these damned Tivo's and other PVR's thjat allow commercial skip. Fast Forward is OK because you still view the commercial and the company's name get's imprinted. with more and more content companies buying voting shares in cable companies they also want to protect their assets from you damned consumers.
THOSE are the only reason they want the cable box forced upon everyone and in that order. They will save a CRAPLOAD by getting rid of a huge chunk of their workforce. and then being able to generate their own demographic data instead of buying it is next in line.
every bit of it is about making them more money and none of it is about you.
Parent
Brought to you by... (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Great... 6x more CRAP or 3x more CRAP at high resolution.
Neither of these is anything I care about as a consumer. I am not convinced that
anyone else really cares about this either. Although it probably is easy to "wow
the rubes" with absurd claims about how many channels you have.
Managed Internet (Score:3, Funny)
Who needs TVs these days (Score:2, Insightful)
Does it run linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Does it run linux? (Score:4, Interesting)
The short answer: No.
The long answer: Devices that accept CableCards and their bi-directional successor must be certified/keyed by CableLabs, the cable industry's R&D house. Part of that certification process requires that the entire device chain meets their security and DRM requirements; it's very similar to how BluRay players require all devices in a digital connection chain to be HDCP compliant. Anyhow, a homebrew application like MythTV will never be certified because someone could just program MythTV to ignore the DRM, and I don't think I need to explain CableLabs' problem with this. Without certification you don't have a key, and without a key the next device in chain won't pass you the data.
Now this doesn't entirely preclude this from being used with Linux, someone like Motorola for example could build a set-top box using Linux that would run all of this, but that's as close to a "yes" answer as you'd get. Cable devices will need to be a Trusted Platform to be certified.
Parent
CableCard not disappearing.... (Score:5, Informative)
The history of the CableCard is long and confusing. Particularly because the cable companies don't want you to adopt it. Then they lose their cable box renting fee. 2truway is just the next step in the CableCard evolution.
Originally, CableCards only had one directional transmission capability. This prevented services such as on demand, pay per view, and guide data. At least, that's what the cable companies wanted you to think. In actuality, the hardware (developed by independent companies) for the cards supported 2-way transmissions. The hardware complied with the CableCard 2.0 specification but the software for each card did not. The cable companies didn't want manufacturers to use their own software in the boxes/televisions/DVRs that would be using the cable cards. No, the cable companies wanted them to use OpenCable Application Platform (OCAP). Of course this isn't an open platform at all.
Picture your Tivo now, with its great recording software. Compare that to the crappy software your cable company uses on their DVR. Well, the OCAP part of the CableCard 2.0 standard requires all hardware be running the cable company's software. In other words, your Tivo would have to be running Comcast/Cox/whoever's horrid interface instead of the standard one. At least, that's how I understand it.
Consumer electronics companies didn't like this at all. So they fought and protested, allowing the CableCard standard in general to slowly die. That's why most new TVs now don't even have card slots.
CableLabs eventually realized that this just wouldn't work. So, they decided "hey, let's just rename OCAP to something cooler." Thus, Tru2way was born from the remnants of OCAP, a subset of the CableCard 2.0 spec. The cable companies also lightened up on the licensing restrictions for the software. Now, the Tru2way standard is getting much more support. Why? I'm really not sure. All I know is that more television companies are saying they'll be adding support for it (and thus cablecards) in their upcoming television models.
I think that's a fairly accurate summary of the history of CableCard and tru2way. No, this will not replace CableCards. Actually, this is just another step in the process towards adopting them.
Frankly, my only concern is that I'm allowed to use my open source MythTV box with a CableCard in order to record shows off encrypted QAM channels like Discovery HD. Currently, I cannot do this due to the ridiculous certified media center PC and Vista requirement. If anyone knows a way around this, please tell me. The analog cutoff is looming and I don't want to lose my recording ability.
Re: (Score:2)
Frankly, my only concern is that I'm allowed to use my open source MythTV box with a CableCard in order to record shows off encrypted QAM channels like Discovery HD. Currently, I cannot do this due to the ridiculous certified media center PC and Vista requirement. If anyone knows a way around this, please tell me. The analog cutoff is looming and I don't want to lose my recording ability.
We can only hope that this will eventually become a reality (though I have very low expectations on the matter). Fortunately, most cable companies appear to be planning to maintain analog cable for at least a few years after the broadcast DTV transition, as long as HD isn't that important to you.
MOD PARENT UP (Score:3, Informative)
The parent really could use a bump to the top of the conversation. The bit about OCAP/tru2way is the critical bit of information out of this announcement.
When Comcast wins, we all lose. This agreement signifies that the CEA has gone ahead and finally agreed to CableLabs terms; compliant devices will have to run the local cable company's Java middleware. This severely limits what 3rd party cable tuners can do, it will allow manufacturers to add functionality that doesn't relate directly to manipulating the
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Picture your Tivo now, with its great recording software. Compare that to the crappy software your cable company uses on their DVR. Well, the OCAP part of the CableCard 2.0 standard requires all hardware be running the cable company's software. In other words, your Tivo would have to be running Comcast/Cox/whoever's horrid interface instead of the standard one. At least, that's how I understand it.
You summary is mostly accurate (and much more so than most other comments).
The Tivo software that Comcast has rolled out in Boston is actually built on the OCAP stack so you won't necessarily be stuck with the cable companies crappy interface. Reviews of that service have been mostly positive so it appears that the OCAP/tru2way platform is flexible enough to built a reasonable interface. This should also allow better integration with VOD service as well as switch digital which have been the problems
Re:CableCard not disappearing.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Originally, CableCards only had one directional transmission capability. This prevented services such as on demand, pay per view, and guide data.
So, being a developer who writes software for tru2way stacks, let me point out where my understanding differs.
The purpose of the CableCard was to separate the specifics of how pay-per-view, subscription channels (like HBO) and encryption from the cable box. This would allow things, like the next HD TiVo box with the 2 CableCards, to handle subscription channels without a settop box. Guide data is not tied to the CableCard in any way.
The fact is, the cable industry moves slowly, and if you think about it, it has too because of the millions of installed devices. One can't simply swap out 10 million of anything with updated hardware without significant cost. So the first versions of the CableCard spec had 1-way (broadcast only) capabilities, while the next generation had 2-way and then 2-way with multiple simultaneous connections. Not all these versions were deployed, but there were specs, transitions testing and so on associated with each revision. Frankly I think that when the form-factor was chosen, the technology could not fit all the hardware for 2-way communication and multiple connections into the device, which caused the phased development.
The hardware complied with the CableCard 2.0 specification but the software for each card did not.
The CableCard is a hardware/software combination that provides a specified interface to the proprietary network encoding that the cable companies run on. The proprietary nature is not from the cable company, but the hardware vendors that provide that equipment. The CableCard provides a bridge, through the CableCard standard, to that network. This allows the TiVo to run all the TiVo software (just like the original boxes) but also directly access subscription channels if you've subscribed with them. The cable company then talks to the CableCard to control what channels are authorized and the TiVo talks to the CableCard to get a decrypted stream for authorized channels.
The cable companies didn't want manufacturers to use their own software in the boxes/televisions/DVRs that would be using the cable cards. No, the cable companies wanted them to use OpenCable Application Platform (OCAP). Of course this isn't an open platform at all.
Picture your Tivo now, with its great recording software. Compare that to the crappy software your cable company uses on their DVR. Well, the OCAP part of the CableCard 2.0 standard requires all hardware be running the cable company's software. In other words, your Tivo would have to be running Comcast/Cox/whoever's horrid interface instead of the standard one. At least, that's how I understand it.
This part is where you are way way off. The tru2way (OCAP) specification is a Java VM and library. That technology allows a company (like TiVo) to write their own Java applications that do what they like, look the way they want etc etc.
The difference from what TiVo (or the cable companies) do now and under tru2way, is that tru2way the hardware is replaced with a Java VM. That Java VM is then implemented by whatever hardware vendor (TV, TiVo box, set top, DVD player). The app runs in the Java VM. This way the cable application displays guide data, or TiVo's functionality, could be written in Java and run on any compliant hardware.
Something that gets left out is that tru2way requires CableCards to work, in the same way the TiVo box required CableCards to plug directly into a digital network.
Consumer electronics companies didn't like this at all. So they fought and protested, allowing the CableCard standard in general to slowly die. That's why most new TVs now don't even have card slots.
That's a little off-base. The CEA wants the same access it had when everyone had analog cable - that you could
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'll just comment on one choice quote:
The licensing agreements for CableCARD (which all cable companies are required to agree to essentially by FCC mandate) requires that a technician install the card. This is to prevent the card from bei
You still bought their line.... (Score:4, Insightful)
This isn't entirely true. Cable companies still rent out the cable cards, so they don't lose the fee. The real reason they don't want you to adopt it is that they want you to be trapped in their "interactive TV" system, instead of seeing somebody else's screens.
This also misses the big point that most people miss when it comes to CableCARD 2.0. Specifically that there is no reason for the card to support bi-directional communications for any of the services that the cable companies claim it will be used for. Switched digital video, video on demand, pay-per-view, etc... Those can all be supported with any device at all doing the transmitting. Since the CableCARD is supposedly a decryption device primarily, there's no reason that outgoing communications need to pass through the card. This is especially true since in a CableCARD 2.0 bi-directional device, the DOCSIS hardware is in the CableCARD compliant device, and not in the card itself. The only reasons to have a bi-directional CableCARD are so the cable company can choose what data to send back (things a third party box might not choose to send, like what channels you're watching, etc..), and to lock you into their screens. A bi-directional CableCARD is essentially a PCMCIA form-factor cable box.
This will never happen. The cable industry has tricked the FCC into a back-door in the integration ban. You will have a cable box, but it will be tiny, and unlike old-style cable boxes they can now also dictate what you can attach it to. This is why this new spec is suddenly getting more support. They are claiming more control over their customer's use of their signal, while claiming openness.
Parent
Gasp (Score:2)
No, but seriously. First Bluray wins and now this. There must be some wailing and gnashing of teeth going on at Redmond now.
Too Little Too Late (Score:2, Insightful)
Java based? (Score:2, Redundant)
Re: (Score:2)
Real time systems are too time critical for these high level languages that are around these days, but that's not exactly news and is unrelated to the article surely? Unless you're under the impression that 'interactive' TV services are somehow realtime?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Lots of stuff runs Java just fine. Your DVD player runs Java. You should worry less about it being Java based and worry more about what the Java programmers have made it do at the behest of companies known to install rootkits, intercept selected packets, and in general spy on everyone.
A little Clarification needed: (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
SDV is the problem, people... (Score:5, Interesting)
It is being rolled out even now, and creating chaos for users of cable cards, TiVo, Media Centers, Myth, etc. Why is this a nightmare? Because SDV is *INCOMPATIBLE* with *EVERYTHING* out there that doesn't belong to the cable company. I bought a new HD TiVo months ago and it worked great. I had access to everything I wanted, and in ways far superior to the Cox-rented "DVR". Then Cox suddenly, without warning, without TELLING anyone, without even training their support staff, rolled out SDV and all the new HD channels were suddenly unavailable to anyone that didn't have "approved" Cox-owned equipment.
I was FURIOUS! SDV totally defeats the ENTIRE purpose of cable cards. There was nothing TiVo could do about it. And I wasted countless hours on the phone with clueless "support" techs at Cox and with them coming to my house. Their only suggestion? Throw away all my equipment and rent the "wonderful" Cox "DVR". And after weeks of this nightmare, Cox suddenly stopped using SDV on the new HD channels and everything returned to normal. Why? Who knows? They wouldn't say. Perhaps a lot of people like me were complaining? (Every person using anything with a cable card was affected). Perhaps Cox even had problems with their own equipment.
But one thing is for sure, it is not going away... I am positive it will be back. Other cable companies are either experimenting with it now or have already ruined the experience of many of their customers by implementing it "permanently".
Supposedly TiVo is working with the cable companies to develop yet another "box" that would sit between the TiVo and the cable to address SDV. But how much will THAT cost? What other problems will it cause? And that does nothing at all for non-TiVo users.
The real kicker is that Cox didn't even really NEED to implement SDV, there was plenty of bandwidth to add all the new HD channels (as they have now proved). And if they were running low on bandwidth, why didn't they put only some of the obscure/(IMHO "stupid") channels on SDV, not things like History Channel, National Geographic, Discover Channel, etc?
My advice? Email your cable company's PR departments NOW and tell them you do not want SDV, especially in its current form. And if nothing else, they should act responsibly and tell all current AND FUTURE customers, EXACTLY what SDV means.
Why is this good? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah. I get it now.
I am sure this is just OCAP. (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of the cable box vendors are already standardized on DOCSIS3.0 and OCAP. OCAP is an OpenCable Application Platform that is based on Java and most cable boxes already are using it, this is why they are so darn slow when pulling up channel guides and flipping channels, and let's not forget the occasional crash.
Cable TV people don't do anything fast or radical, I don't know if I'd call them conservative as much as lethargic.
So now the marketing people have invented a new pretend technical term "tru2way" and we are supposed to believe they have done something innovative, while really they are just starting to roll out 5 year old technology. Yawn...
These cable boxes really are terrible.
At some point far enough out in the future we will just have a flat TCP/IP network for everything and everyone will live on the same even playing field.
Then I will be able to watch Star Wars IX on opening day using 3D video goggles in 4K Digital Cinema resolution on my Google IPTV Set top box streaming live in real time.
Re:Lovely... (Score:5, Informative)
In before Big Brother references!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess I just don't see what the point of two-way TV is in the first place, but then I haven't had cable for over a decade now. If I don't want PPV, what else would 2-way TV give me that a simple digital recording of a TV show doesn't?
I'll be annoyed when my analog antenna stops working, but hopefully by then a digital antenna + tuner will be $20.
Re:Lovely... (Score:5, Interesting)
From any BBC channel you can get information such as the latest news, weather, and tv schedules by browsing a text based menu.
They also use it for large events such as The Olympics, and music festivals to allow you to choose what you want to be watching at the moment.
During Wimbledon for example you were able to pick which match you wanted to watch out of three or four different options.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Two way would involve a back channel for eg. voting on 'who wants to be a bad singer XVIII'.
Re:Lovely... (Score:4, Interesting)
It would be amusing to see all the people who claim they don't skip commercials on their Tivo come screaming out of the closet.
Parent
Re:Lovely... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no need to make it something java-like. The
technical requirements for this stuff is really quite
basic.
No, all of this is just an excuse to lock up the path
to the TV so that no other devices can sit in there and
add value to the customer.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
In before Big Brother references!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And tracking what non-pay channels you watch.
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In my experience, that means that 'tru2way' technology will be a stReaming pile of shit.
There, I fixed it for you.
Re:Yeah right (Score:5, Informative)
Cable boxes won't go away, but newer TV's and third party DVR's will finally be able to do two way communication with cable service. Nobody expects everyone to switch overnight but as more TV's supporting this standard are produced, fewer people will need cable boxes.
Let me know if you need to have anything else simple explained to you.
Parent
Re:Yeah right (Score:4, Insightful)
the bother anyways? The real problem is that all of this BS is making it
impossible for 3rd parties to interesting recording devices. This whole
DRM nonsense has effectively killed off the VCR or any device like it
with few exceptions.
It creates too much of a bother and an expense for young innovators with
strange new ideas that might scare content providers or content owners.
The path between "cable" and the TV should be unencrypted.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Then folks wonder why facebook has a higher average IQ according to that 60 second test the other day.