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H.R. 4279 Would Establish Federal IP Cops
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed Jun 11, 2008 04:53 AM
from the lawn-forcement dept.
from the lawn-forcement dept.
MrSnivvel writes "H.R. 4279, Prioritizing Resources and Organization for Intellectual Property Act of 2008, is gaining momentum in Congress. It passed the House a few days back. It would allow the Feds to seize hardware that has even one file coming from 'dubious origins,' e.g. downloaded from P2P. If passed into law, the bill would establish an Intellectual Property Enforcement Division within the office of the Deputy Attorney General. Rep. John Conyers says the goal is to 'prioritize intellectual property protection to the highest level of our government.'"
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Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
Not that I entirely disagree, but this seems a bit strong, even for them.
Here's the roll call :
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-300 [govtrack.us]
Here's the (short) list of "No" voters :
Nay CA-4 Doolittle, John [R]
Nay TN-2 Duncan, John [R]
Nay AZ-6 Flake, Jeff [R]
Nay TX-14 Paul, Ronald [R]
Nay TX-2 Poe, Ted [R]
Nay GA-3 Westmoreland, Lynn [R]
Nay AK-0 Young, Donald [R]
Nay VA-9 Boucher, Frederick [D]
Nay OH-10 Kucinich, Dennis [D]
Nay CA-16 Lofgren, Zoe [D]
Nay WI-4 Moore, Gwen [D]
Barack Obama didn't vote, but all the IL guys voted "Aye"
John McCain didn't vote either, but one (out of 4) of his Arizona colleagues voted "Nay". The democratic candidate for Arizona votes "Aye"
Thought this was worth mentioning.
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Re:Well (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry to thread jack, but I think everybody needs to see this and I don't want it lost down the discussion...
Everybody in the US of A write your senator tonight! This nonsense needs to stop, and maybe a response from the constituents would make them at least think twice in the future. Don't do what I've done in the past and get incensenced and not do anything. Don't whine on a
That said try to present a reasoned arguement instead of a rant, or just be short and quick and say you're against it.
Senate Contact Info [senate.gov] to make it even easier!
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Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
With a foreign war going on, energy prices spiraling out of control, a credit crisis in housing, a slumbering real-estate market... why on earth should we tolerate our congress squandering its time and committing scarce government resources to stuff like this? Creating a free stop-loss department for the entertainment industry is *not* a government priority... or at least it shouldn't be. How about we fund NASA, or Fermi, or try to defuse the Social Security time bomb?
People's senators and reps need to know that their votes on this and similar initiatives will inform us about what their priorities are; a vote for this is a vote against [the children|education|science|social security solvency|etc.]
Yes, of course the initiative is just plain wrong, and the reasons why are important too. Congress-critters, though, seem to think in terms more like the above. The governing class most always seems to see expanding government and creating agencies like this as a Good Thing(tm), so philosophical arguments for or against this stuff may not be as digestible to them as simply saying "hey, in political commercials next time around, a Yea vote on this will make you look like you prefer this not-so-popular thing to popular things that are short on funding."
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Re:Well (Score:5, Funny)
Gerry
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Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Cops here start at 19k,25-29k if they put in their 20 years. They can make nearly their yearly salary in a month by simply taking the money and looking the other way. They can make even more than their salary in a month if they allow a few of their old high school buds to set up meth labs. How many do you honestly think are not going to take the money?
Same thing here: A congressman makes,what,130k a year or so? They can make that in a couple of months time by simply not supporting anything that hurts the big multinationals and special interests. I have no doubt they can earn even more by going out of their way to support any law that the multinationals and special interests want. Considering the cost associated with an election these days,how many do you actually think will NOT take the money? I wish I knew of a solution,but sadly I don't. The corruption has rotted the very foundation of our government and considering the history of both parties I honestly don't see that changing by choosing a D or an R in front of someone's name. And while I vote green party wherever possible,I know that by being locked out of debates and other media outlets the odds of getting a working 3rd party are virtually non existent. But that is my 02c,YMMV
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Re:Well (Score:5, Funny)
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This is not capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:This is not capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Socialism is the pipe dream that you could take this to a further extreme and eliminate government and commerce, gather all power with the people and live happily ever after (in Marxist terms, the "workers' paradise"). The truth is, that much power will make its own structures and become an independent power whether you like it or not. The point is to make a system where the government serves its people and commerce serves its customers, not trying to put fraudulent equal signs. Congress don't do as we want, but they listen when voters flee. Corporations don't do as we want, but they do listen when we hit their wallet. It could have been better but ignore reality and you could end up with something much worse, and socialism ignores reality.
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Re:This is not capitalism (Score:5, Interesting)
But unfortunately we have become a one party state, as there is precious little difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, both of whom say "how high?" when their corporate campaign donors say "jump".
Corporations don't do as we want, but they do listen when we hit their wallet.
This only works in a national economy, which we no longer have. The corporations are multinational, and have six billion prospective customers. Your purchase is meaningless and there is no way possible to hit them in their wallet. They have no reason to care if you buy or not, there are a lot more suckers where you came from.
For instance, there has been an organized boycott against the RIAA record labels for years. The RIAA doesn't even notice it! Sony rooted millions of computers with trojaned CDs, do they care if I or the other million victims never buy another Sony product again? No, there are six billion other suckers for Sony to sell their rootkit infested computers and TVs and DVD players to.
My purchase, or refusal to purchase, is nothing to them.
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Re:This is not capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
If simplifying politics to a numeric scale from 0-100, and you yourself are at value 80, you may see a huge big difference between 70 and 90. However, someone in, say Europe, who is at 20, will see the two as pretty much the same.
And yes, compared to the wider spread most European countries enjoy, the two parties are very much alike. It's only when you compare them from an American viewpoint that they become vastly different.
There's a saying in Europe that the US has only two parties -- the ultra right wings and the republicans. It's very apt that the US Democratic party uses blue as its colour -- that's reserved for the conservative in Europe. And the democratic party is further to the right than almost any European conservative party. Heck, Ralph Nader is considered conservative by the standards in other western countries!
Also, let me remind you that almost every democratic representative voted for the invasion of Iraq and for the USA PATRIOT act. Judging by the actions of congress, I don't think a democratic president would have made much of a difference. The money would have been funnelled into different channels -- instead of going to friends in the oil industry, it might have gone to friends in other industries. But make no mistake, every single US president is bought and paid for by corporations. Including Obama or McCain, whichever one gets elected.
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America -- are we really that free? (Score:5, Interesting)
(ranged by freedom)
(I mean here socialism as practiced in most european countries between 1950-2000, if you mean the EU's overwhelming philosophy, then perhaps yes, you're right that it's closer to communism than fascism)
In terms of medical care the Europeans are also much freer, since they get free medical care. Therefore Europeans are not screwed by getting sick when they can't afford health insurance, have had prior diseases like cancer, or their insurance company decides to screw them somehow.
The much-touted "freedom" of America is more for large corporations and the few people that can write a check for their college tuition. In fact, this article is about large corporations getting their own police force. Do you think this means greater or lesser freedom for the average individual? (Hint: you may soon have federal police knocking on your door for sharing the wrong file) We still haven't even gotten to drug use (legalized in Holland) or sex and nudity (much freer laws in Europe). Sure, they pay alot in taxes, but when you count the cost of health care and education, the tax burden comes out similarly. Americans just get to pay for hugely expensive ($500 billion+) annual defense budgets or hugely expensive ($750 billion+) unnecessary wars or the hugely expensive "War on Drugs" rather than things they actually can use in daily life.
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Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Well (Score:5, Interesting)
Anarcho-capitalism just postpones this: a corporation or group thereof becomes large enough to collude (if it's a group) or to become a de facto state (in either case). If the new state is capitalist, see the first point above. Otherwise, it'll probably still be oligarchical.
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Re:Well (Score:5, Interesting)
We have the best legislators money can buy.
No rich powerful man ever goes to prison unless a richer, more powerful man wants him there.
The corporations run both major parties and the media, so all US media is in effect state-run.
Our national prayer goes like this:
Our money, who art in the stock market and commodity futures, hallowed be thy name
My kingdom come, my will be done on the entire world.
Give us this day our daily bread, mansions, jewels, fast cars, yachts, and all the trappings of success.
Forgive nobody, as nobody will forgive us.
Lead us not into poverty, but deliver us from taxes
For money is the power and the glory forever.
let's eat.
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hehehehehe (Score:5, Funny)
I'm so glad I live in the UK! Oh wait....
"I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion! I want every man, woman and child to understand how close we are to chaos! I want everyone to remember why they need us!"
Watch out WoWers! (Score:5, Insightful)
So if a computer has anything they got from p2p, then the cops can confiscate their computers? So if, say, a cop doesn't like someone's politics, ethnicity, race, sexuality or gender and that cop knows the person plays WoW, they can confiscate the person's computer with no possible recourse for the victim? Sure a charge won't come from it, but they get to make life annoying for that person.
Re:Watch out WoWers! (Score:5, Informative)
Oh there's recourse. But have you ever made an administrative appeal to your state's supreme court? Let me tell you, it's a bitch. A bitch that takes lots of time and lots of money (even if you're representing yourself). And likely if you're right they'll still have legislative immunity from having to pay costs....
At that point it's faster, cheaper and easier to buy a new PC and rewrite your PhD thesis rather than appeal against the decision.
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Re:Watch out WoWers! (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, it's ridiculous, but I wouldn't put meningful data on a machine that sits in the USA. The country simply isn't trustworthy enough.
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Re:Watch out WoWers! (Score:5, Funny)
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IP is the most important issue facing us in the US (Score:5, Funny)
NOW.. we can finally tackle the issue of downloading music and movies illegally, and impose death on those that do.
I'm proud to be an American today. So proud.
Re:IP is the most important issue facing us in the (Score:5, Interesting)
The knock-on effect on the rest of the first world cannot be denied. When the U.S. comes up with a ding-bat solution to IP like this, then we are all doomed together because it will filter down through international treaties and trade agreements.
Freeing up IP is essential for making health, education and the energy market cheaper and more universal. In the last 5 to 10 years, first world governments have been 'pulling up the ladder' in this regard rather than opening up to the people. It's almost as though they are anticipating something.
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Re:IP is the most important issue facing us in the (Score:5, Funny)
1) Oil-crisis ? What crisis ? We export shitload of oil and are steeenking rich as a result.
2) Healthcare costs money ? Guess so, never saw a bill (see 1) (universal healthcare)
3) Energy ? We get 95% of our electric power from hydroelectric already, planning to be completely carbon-neutral as a country in a decade or two.
4) Comfortable lifestyle ? Flipping burgers earns you $12/hour or thereabouts here, and unemployment is like 2% perhaps, so got that pretty much covered. (the main unemployed are -unemployabe- more than unemployed; if you are incapable of showing up at work, the problem ain't with the economy: it's with you!)
Did I mention we've got hot girls yet ?
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Re:IP is the most important issue facing us in the (Score:5, Funny)
[...]
Did I mention we've got hot girls yet ?
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Re:IP is the most important issue facing us in the (Score:5, Funny)
Pointed pieces of wood tend to be that way.
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They can start with confiscating Orrin Hatch's PCs (Score:5, Informative)
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) suggested Tuesday that people who download copyright materials from the Internet should have their computers automatically destroyed.
But Hatch himself is using unlicensed software on his official website, which presumably would qualify his computer to be smoked by the system he proposes.
The senator's site makes extensive use of a JavaScript menu system developed by Milonic Solutions, a software company based in the United Kingdom. The copyright-protected code has not been licensed for use on Hatch's website.
Re:They can start with confiscating Orrin Hatch's (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
So... (Score:5, Insightful)
For that matter, do those reps think that this will make law enforcement give one whit about people stealing albums? They already have enough to deal with in terms of real crime, and they're going to utterly ignore this anyway.
Seizing hardware (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Seizing hardware (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone I know had every computer in his home taken for suspicion of child porn. It took a few months but he finally got everything back and no charges were ever filed. They conceded nothing was found and that the open wifi hotspot of his house along a major roadway was probably to blame.
The worse part? The feds kept saying, in his face, "We've found child porn on your computer. How do you explain it." He had been in law enforcement for years and he was shocked at the outright blatant lies told to him about this 'evidence'. No files were found, they just lied.
If we get IP police, I won't be surprised if they take the same handbook from the child porn feds.
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I hope it gets through (Score:5, Interesting)
Sooner or later the US will wake the fuck up.
Police State! (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's any law I've seen recently that qualifies as police state, this is one.
Then stop voting for either party (Score:5, Insightful)
At this point it doesn't matter in the slightest which party gets in, things will continue much the same way with minor differences in soundbite.
You can "throw your vote away" because a republican or democrat will get in, and it doesn't matter which. the more people that do this, the more those scared of "wasting their vote" will realise it's not a waste at all, and that all it takes is for more people to realise what's going on.
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As they say on 4chan, (Score:5, Insightful)
Civil asset forfeiture laws are why I hate lawyers (Score:5, Insightful)
Any normal human being can look at the logic of civil asset forfeiture laws and realize that it is literally a legitimization of armed robbery by the government.
Priorities? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep, we have our priorities right. With all the famine, high energy prices, wars, natural disasters, etc, we know that IP rights must be the highest priority, to keep that money flowing into congress. Getting that pocket lined is more important then feeding people.
Kick them all out, they are no longer serving the citizens as they are mandated to do by the constitution. Its a breech of contract of their oath of office.
Ok. (Score:5, Funny)
Direct violation?? (Score:5, Informative)
Is this not a blatant transgression of the 4th Amendment?? Back to the dark days of the writs of assistance..
Copyright infringement as a criminal act - that's just wrong. And scary. Too long has this corporate fellatio been going on..
And as an additional WTF: Britney Spears/Justin Timberlake/Beyonce/Dude, Where's My Car?/Gigli are the USA's most important economic engines? Or at least, the engine's constituents??Goddamn. Just, goddamn.
p.s: TFA's dated May 6th. Isn't this coming a tad late onFrank Zappa said it best (Score:5, Interesting)
So, basically, we're ALL criminals..... (Score:5, Insightful)
The question is: who doesn't have something on their computer that infringes copyright in some manner? It's not just the P2P crowd -- they might well share some of their booty with others, maybe even providing tracks on a CD-R to friends who have slow connections, or not enough savvy to use or desire to risk torrents. If you've ripped tracks from someone else's CD, technically you're violating a copyright. (Hell, the RIAA thinks that ripping your own CDs is infringement). How many people have software of dubious origin on their machines, either by design or ignorance? (All those grey market Windows and Photoshop CDs that are ubiquitous on eBay, for example.) For that matter, what about the mass of infringing material on YouTube? Download a clip from last night's American Idol before Fox has it pulled, and now your computer is ours....mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha. Even more damning is that there is hardly a website in existence that doesn't have SOMETHING on it -- a graphic, photo, quote, musical background -- that is, by the strictest standard of the law, an infringement of someone's copyright. Just viewing the website puts those items in your cache -- voila, you are now guilty...please hand over the computer quietly and there won't be any trouble.
Maybe this is a plot to help balance the budget. Instead of spending money on computers for all the federal agencies, they just seize as many as they need from all us hardened criminals.
Priorities? (Score:5, Insightful)
Write your senators... (Score:5, Informative)
Only, because of the internet, someone who's never even been to the library can drop it there. Furthermore, it doesn't even have to be there--if a cop says he thinks he saw one, that counts. *and*, because it's computer hardware as well as software, the overall value and lifetime expectancy of the library decreases tremendously over the time it's not usable.
Re:New government type required (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:ideas != property (Score:5, Interesting)
no band could possibly hope to make any money by giving away its music for free and making it back playing live shows. And having songs broadcast over FM radio without royalties being paid will destroy the music industry.
A book would be impossible to sell without some sort of protection. could you imagine if the #1 best selling book of all time had no sort of copy protection?
imagine if there was free software. not just free to have, but free to use and modify and re-distribute yourself. That would completly destroy the entire software industry. I predict that if there ever was some sort of free operating system that could be an alternative to windows, it would completly eradicate microsoft's entire business in less than a year.
The movie industry would be in far better shape if no one moved out west to escape Edison's patents that prevented them from making movies. Disney would be a stronger company if they had to secure permission to use the Brothers Grim stories that their classics are founded on.
you are right. stealing and sharing ideas can not possibly lead to any sort of good, and it certainly is not profitable in any way shape or form.
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Re:ideas != property (Score:5, Insightful)
Seizing property suspected of infringing? Are you NUTS?
The copyright holder has all the resources at his disposal to stop the redistribution of his work without consent, etc. This law does nothing but create a secret police force whose sole purpose is to rough up those who exist outside the "established" copyright kingdom.
Read up on the history of US copyright and you'll see that infringing is what we're good at, particularly when it came to books and the like.
WE were the rebels opposing the draconian English/European copyrights. I'm frankly tired of the perpetual extensions, lax registration, and overbearing unconstitutional power given copyright holders. (And artist != copyright holders these days...)
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Re:ideas != property (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you missed this part:
So just like in drug cases, you don't even have to be convicted of a crime - you lose your property based on an accusation. Think of it as a DMCA notice that not only takes down your site, but also has a bunch of jack-booted thugs coming and seizing all your stuff.
Maybe they will pursue a conviction and maybe not. If you want your stuff back, you have to put up a bond equal to the value of the stuff that was taken, sue the federal government, and prove your innocence. Good luck with that.
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