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Online Colleges Could Spy On Students – By Law
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Jul 24, 2008 01:15 PM
from the pay-for-your-papers-please dept.
from the pay-for-your-papers-please dept.
skeazer writes "Tucked away in a 1,200-page bill now in Congress is a small paragraph that could lead distance-education institutions to require spy cameras in their students' homes. It sounds Orwellian, but the paragraph — part of legislation renewing the Higher Education Act — is all but assured of becoming law by the fall. No one in Congress objects to it."
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I tend to masturbate at home during work breaks (Score:5, Funny)
Will they watch that too?
Re:I tend to masturbate at home during work breaks (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, you can either buy back the footage for a minimal cost or cease activity when watched by administrators.
In all seriousness, isn't this why we have proctors, so that someone can watch you while you perform tasks required for your grade?
Parent
Re:I tend to masturbate at home during work breaks (Score:5, Interesting)
In all seriousness, isn't this why we have proctors, so that someone can watch you while you perform tasks required for your grade?
Simple answer: cost. I work at a community college, and although we do have an academic testing centre -- the priority is to provide an alternate testing environment for students with disabilities. The secondary priority is students who miss tests for legitimate reasons (medical, weather, etc.).
There simply isn't capacity to allow every student in every online course to come onto campus to complete their assessments. It isn't built into the costing/tuition.
Parent
Re:I tend to masturbate at home during work breaks (Score:4, Insightful)
That's why students need to pay for their own proctoring. They already pay for textbooks, transportation, internet, etc. This is just something else to be not subsidized.
Disclaimer: I no longer work in Distance Ed.
Parent
Re:I tend to masturbate at home during work breaks (Score:5, Informative)
I did a whole master's degree through a distance program. When I had to take tests, I did need a proctor. Basically, you have someone who meets certain requirements fill out some paperwork, and then they manage the test administration stuff for the school.
For most of that, I used the testing center at the local community college, which did charge. Of course it could have been free, if I found some other impartial person willing to do it, but I liked the isolated independent environment.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, there are several laws, (or i guess rules would be a better word). Many federal exams, like one you fill out during the process of getting hired at Homeland Security require a "proctored test" with so many requirements on the room, quietness, the people watching and the stuff on the computers, that its almost silly. When they last asked our community college to be a proctor site for TSA exams, we looked at the requirements that stated that we had to use MS Java, which is no longer available or s
And to think. . . (Score:4, Funny)
I thought school was for learning things rather than getting a fancy piece of paper.
Real problem (Score:3, Insightful)
School is for learning things...and that is the problem.
The increasing availability of higher education (through convenient and affordable online colleges, as just one example) is resulting in an increasingly high percentage of highly educated people in the work force.
Unfortunately, the number of jobs that actually require that kind of education is not increasing at the same rate.
What happens when supply increases faster than demand? The price drops.
That means that more employers are requiring higher educa
Re:Real problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't believe me? Look at the economy in India.
Yes, I'd hate to have the second largest rate of economic growth since 1980 (behind China). Sounds awful.
Parent
Re:And to think. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
rather than getting a fancy piece of paper
While it may be true for you that school is for learning things, it really depends upon which school and program you mean. The majority of the training/education industry (as far as the government is concerned) is about meeting industry's HR needs, and has nothing to do with the lofty goals of education for the benefit of the individual.
Parent
Re:And to think. . . (Score:5, Funny)
Bah, speak for yourself. I majored in Anthroplogy with a concentration in Feminist studies. I would comment more on this but I have to get back to waiting tables.
Parent
Re:And to think. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
"Won't that day of reckoning come when you show up to your first job and the boss asks you to modify a Java program and you give him a blank stare?"
No, when it get known that universities are putting out students that can't do the job, they are penalized for this.
Students don't sign up for the universities -- they would if they could because they think it is an easy degree, but parents generally pay the bills and they research this stuff.
Beyond this, a lot of post-graduation research goes into assessing a program. How much is the average student making? How quickly do they find jobs? Are they still holding a job in their field at 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?
The gov't gets involved because they back student loans. Lots of defaults on student loans. If a university has a default rate of say 50% (I'm making up this number), they stop getting loans sent to them. A good friend wanted to go to an experimental psychological program this fall -- only to find that he can't get a loan. Not going to happen.
My day job is in student testing...I get to hear all of this every day...we get all the blame if students are doing poorly, but never any of the credit. I don't like what the law is doing, but it is a start. It is the start of accountability. Beyond that, I really don't think anyone lives anywhere that is all that inconvenient to get to some place that can proctor an exam with the exception of those whom are disabled. Heck, I gave a few exams with a web cam for a student in Iraq this year (I also had a ranking officer present to make certain that what I couldn't see was still legit!)
So lots of reasons for the gov't to get involved. As a tax payer, I hope they are only propping up universities that are churning out students that are qualified...and you should expect the same.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Fine then, we'll put a webcam in whatever room(s) in your house has/have your computer(s),"
Did you get the memo? No one is forcing you to do this. You can unplug it anytime you want. It is only for testing. Don't want to be monitored, go to a proctored environment. Like near me? I can have you come into my office for a small fee and watch that you aren't cheating.
Re:And to think. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should the government create a law that requires that schools enforce no-cheating?
It's so some politician can brag, "I worked with congress to pass a law that eliminated cheating in American universities!"
Parent
Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
I haven't read TFA, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that by "spy cameras in their homes" they mean a camera attached to the computer while school work (or at least tests) is being done in an effort to make sure the degree goes to the person doing the work?
As long as it isn't required to be on except while the student is doing work that would take place under the eyes of a professor or TA in a "real" college and as long as enrollment is voluntary I can't imagine it's really that objectionable.
Re:Right. (Score:4, Interesting)
For any "online" institution I've known, the tests need to be done at an approved institute under supervision, and after presenting proper ID, etc.
You might be able to fob off assignments on somebody else, but in a real school institution you could do this anyhow after classes.
Parent
Re:Right. (Score:5, Interesting)
For any "online" institution I've known, the tests need to be done at an approved institute under supervision, and after presenting proper ID, etc.
Well, that's the thing... they're trying to break that restriction.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And you would be right. Was the summary that obvious?
Re:Right. (Score:4, Insightful)
And you would be right. Was the summary that obvious?
Well, the article does discuss both the test-taking aspect in addition to other concerns, and what the legislation actually says isn't made clear, other than a a description of it that reads "an institution that offers an online program must prove that an enrolled student is the same person who does the work."
Without knowing how "work" is defined, my guess is that the intent of the legislation is reasonable. That's not to say the technologies or workarounds being put into effect are.
I imagine that if this is mostly about test taking, then video cameras are hardly onerous. If every computer sold today came with a camera, and video confering was a routine affair, I imagine all on-line educating would be handled that way, as it's little different than being there in person. Granted, being able to "attend" remotely while just wearing your underwear won't be possible, but that doesn't strike me as a significant disadvantage. Or desirable.
Parent
Re:Right. (Score:4, Insightful)
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems.
Normal people don't understand this concept; they believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
Second, and more importantly, why are we so focused on putting systems in place to prevent cheating?
Spending time and resources on a system to FORCE obedience to the rule is inherently wrong, and is DEFINITELY Orwellian.
Lets start focusing on teaching our kids to NOT CHEAT instead of expending so much time and so many resources in an effort to force them to comply.
For those who still do cheat, life will ultimately expose them for the stupid jackass they are.
And if it doesn't? Then the educational requirements were probably unnecessary for the profession they chose and perhaps the requirements should be rethought.
You can sit a person down in a chair and force them to stay, but you can't force them to learn.
Learning is a choice. Not learning is also a choice.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Spending time and resources on a system to FORCE obedience to the rule is inherently wrong, and is DEFINITELY Orwellian. Lets start focusing on teaching our kids to NOT CHEAT instead of expending so much time and so many resources in an effort to force them to comply. For those who still do cheat, life will ultimately expose them for the stupid jackass they are.
So would you consider cops enforcing legal compliance with your local legal code to be Orwellian? BTW, as far as we can tell, being a jackass is no barrier to living. Movies have been made with just that [imdb.com] as a title, and it did SO well, there was a sequel... [imdb.com]
Some people don't give a rat's kazoo what others think as long as they get "theirs". Exposing folks like that as a jackass does very little to change their behavior; they think they're in the right. Penalizing them for said jackassery, however, might get
Re:Right. (Score:4, Insightful)
Spending time and resources on a system to FORCE obedience to the rule is inherently wrong, and is DEFINITELY Orwellian. Lets start focusing on teaching our kids to NOT CHEAT instead of expending so much time and so many resources in an effort to force them to comply. For those who still do cheat, life will ultimately expose them for the stupid jackass they are.
So would you consider cops enforcing legal compliance with your local legal code to be Orwellian?
Laws generally only work correctly when everyone buys into the system. Do you drive with flat tires? Do you drive at night with your lights off? Do you burn other people's houses down for fun? No? Why? Because it is illegal? Probably not. Rather, it is bad for the car, dangerous, and ethically wrong, respectively. On the other hand, have you driven above the speed limit? Have you ever bought a candy bar from a kid without paying sales tax? Have you ever thrown away a (battery-powered) watch into the trash? Probably, even though they are all illegal. And putting in measures to always enforce these restrictions, or worse, only enforcing them for capricious reasons, is Orwellian. I actually am of the opinion that some of our local legal code and some of the enforcement thereof to be Orwellian. If there is a legal system that it is not possible to avoid offending, even with the best of intentions, you give power to the police force that they should not have. Sorry, not the best example.
That said, I do not know if I would consider legally requiring anti-cheating measures for online courses to be Orwellian. But I would say requiring cameras as the implementing method (which I did not get out of the article) would be.
Parent
Re:Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right - If you read TFA it says:
Tucked away in a 1,200-page bill now in Congress is a small paragraph that could lead distance-education institutions to require spy cameras in their students' homes.
It sounds Orwellian, but the paragraph â" part of legislation renewing the Higher Education Act â" is all but assured of becoming law by the fall. No one in Congress objects to it.
The paragraph is actually about clamping down on cheating. It says that an institution that offers an online program must prove that an enrolled student is the same person who does the work.
In other words the law says distance learning institutions must make an effort to verify work is done by the right person - and one technology those institutions are experimenting with is webcams.
It's typical slashdot to quote just enough of the article to give completely the wrong impression.
Parent
It is entirely objectionable and wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
What guarantee is there that the camera can't be used for other purposes?
Because you've unplugged it?
Parent
Re:Right. (Score:4, Funny)
I always thought it stood for "full", as in "complete".
As in "read the full manual" or "read the full article".
Parent
They can't stop it in person (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They can't stop it in person (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
So.... (Score:5, Interesting)
FUD spreads better than butter (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:FUD spreads better than butter (Score:5, Informative)
Well I did read the article, and it is a clear cut case of FUD. The law says only that these schools must be able to prove that the person enrolled is the person doing the work.
All that crap about requiring them to put cameras in students homes is just some disingenuous person trying to claim that that is what it would take, because they don't think colleges have that verification responsibility.
What this really comes down to is that most distance learning institutions require students to take their exams at a testing center, where they provide identification and are under the observation of a proctor. And those that don't are raising a fuss because they would prefer not to pay for that.
FUD is exactly what it is -- the are proposing the most ridiculous solution that they can think of to bring them into compliance with such a law, because they would prefer not to have to comply at all.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Some schools might want the most stringent controls to ensure students do not cheat. Others might not care. Some schools may provide the option and charge accordingly (and probably have different certificates).
Why should this be the business of anyone but the school & the student?
Well, I guess no more online education (Score:3, Funny)
More needless government intervention (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, I don't see a problem with an online school implementing this on their own, exclusively for exams, as long as the device can be disconnected and software removed afterwards. Don't like that? Try another school. Capitalism wins.
The real issue, I believe, is that the government seems to think it has the right to require that these devices be used. This will keep the price of these devices high and the slope nice and slippery.
Re:More needless government intervention (Score:5, Insightful)
The real issue, I believe, is that the government seems to think it has the right to require that these devices be used.
So long as the government continues to pay out tuition subsidies, it should have the authority to specify the requirements for academic credibility. No doubt some "elite" institutions could forego government funding and avoid the regulation.
This is pretty similar to drunk driving laws vs. federal highway subsidies, and AT&T vs. wiring subsidies.
Parent
Mod parent down! Oops, it's the story! (Score:5, Informative)
Spy camera? Not quite. They're basically just posing a "Hold up a picture of yourself with today's local newspaper so we know you are where you say you are." type challenge to prove that when you sit down for a high-stakes college exam, you are who you say you are.
It's not like they're requiring your iSight camera be on 24/7. So this sensational headline doesn't match the story. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Verify who is doing the work (Score:5, Informative)
For those of you not reading TFA (Score:3, Informative)
Proof? (Score:3, Interesting)
From TFA: "The paragraph is actually about clamping down on cheating. It says that an institution that offers an online program must prove that an enrolled student is the same person who does the work."
And how is a camera in my home proof? If I have access to the hardware, I can send any video footage I want. And as for proof, there's no proof that I do any assignment that takes place out of class at traditional universities either. It sound more like it will create a market for test taking centers that contract out to universities that offer distance learning. Fuck those who live out in the boonies.
Teleconferences (Score:4, Interesting)
Called Securexam Remote Proctor, it's about the size of a large paperweight and plugs into a standard port on a home computer. The pedestal includes a groove for scanning fingerprints, a tiny microphone, and a camera. The sphere reflects a 360-degree view around the test taker, which the camera picks up.
Nevermind proctoring, how about using this for round-table podcasts? Instead of a multi-camera shoot, put this on the table in front of everyone and do your cuts to who is talking all in post.
Students pay $150 for the device.
Losing the fingerprint scanner would drop the price a bit, and audio for each panelist could still be recorded using a multi-track recorder. But you may need HD resolution for capture in order to get SD-quality shots for editing, which you don't need for simple monitoring.
I am looking for a long wire: (Score:3, Funny)
Easily Defeated (Score:5, Funny)
Cameras aren't the same as people (Score:3, Insightful)
These designers need to get a clue. Cameras will not replace human proctors any time soon.
Instant distance learning cheat:
1) Plug magic 360-degree anti-cheating fingerprint camera into laptop.
2) Sit down at desk with other laptop.
3) Bring your buddy the anthropology-whiz-for-hire into the room. Hand him the laptop from step 1.
4) Buddy gets under desk and takes test. You spend an hour on IRC basking in the epic lulz.
Here's how to end it (Score:5, Funny)
1. Be under 18 years old
2. Perform a sex act on the camera.
3. Compel discovery against the university for possession of child pornography.
4. ???
5. Profit!!!
The whole idea is horseshit. (Score:4, Insightful)
The Internet doesn't change anything there at all. So where were their Orwellian rules before?
This nonsense is just another example of blaming the internet for something that has always existed, and using that as an excuse to further intrude.
What a crock.
Re:At what cost? (Score:5, Funny)
So how will all that bandwidth hurt my p2p downloads?
Extra points if your ethics exam is what's killing your download rate.
Parent
Re:How will they work it for Dialup and sat intern (Score:4, Interesting)
They won't.
Students with dialup will either have to upgrade the connection or come to the college to do the exam if better connection is unavailable in their area.
That is one of the reasons my college [www.fit.ba] is still against implementing some kind of a video link during a test.
It is not connection heavy just on the student - imagine maintaining couple of thousands of simultaneous video links with resolution high enough to spot possible cheat sheets?
Like... 4pt text printed cheat sheets stickers on your monitor.
There is a MUCH simpler solution that they implement.
Online tests that can be done from home constitute only a part of the grade. For those to be valid - you have to pass the final exam AT the college.
Many exams require you to write a seminary work and later "defend it" in person in front of the professor.
Here - students are the ones demanding something like that since some of us (like me) have to travel for 6 hours to get to an exam.
Which can be quite ironic when some of your tests take around 20-30 minutes.
Get up at 3 to catch a 5 AM bus, 6 hours one way, do a test, wait for the next bus home, 6 hours back.
Roads here suck. No highway. We might get one in about 10 years or so...
There is also a simple solution to that problem too.
Since most of the tests are done by logging into the college's system with your ID and password - it could be also done over the internet.
Like I said... we do it for the "lesser" tests. Only reason we are not allowed to do that for the final tests is cheating.
Now... my town has a university as well... A good one... only not with such a study program.
Why my college can't or won't contact the faculty of the university here and arrange for us to take the exam from the facilities of the university here (despite students suggesting and demanding that for years now), under the supervision of the local staff - well... I'd rather think its the old incompetence again instead of malice and money.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I can guarantee you that real institutions of higher learning don't give a shit about online "distance" learning, or cheating. My alma mater is among the top in terms of number of graduates who go on to get doctorates in their fields, but does not proctor exams. All exams are take-home, with the obvious exception of your oral thesis defense (if you can call that an exam).
Any institution providing a real education won't care if you cheat on tests because the faculty have more important things to do and it
Re:So, just what was your room number in college? (Score:5, Interesting)
>Everyone and his uncle demands to know my mother's maiden name.
This is culturally insensitive also. It is quite common for one's name and one's mother's maiden name to be the same name.
It's taken for granted as an assumption in the question, that you had married parents, and that your mother changed her name to your father's name, and that your parents gave you your father's name.
Not everybody does that.
Parent