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Craigslist Forced To Reveal a Seller's Identity
Posted by
kdawson
on Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:19 AM
from the limits-to-anonymity dept.
from the limits-to-anonymity dept.
mi writes "The Academy of Motion Pictures Arts has won a judgment compelling Craigslist to reveal the identity of 'Daniel,' who tried to sell two tickets to the Oscar ceremony recently. The plaintiff's argument against such sales is scary and can be taken very far very quickly: 'If you don't know who's inside the theater, it's very difficult to provide security.' Craigslist's handling of the case may be even scarier, however — instead of fighting tooth-and-nail for the user's privacy, as we expect Google, Yahoo, and AOL, and even credit-card issuers to do, Craigslist simply did not show up in court and lost by default."
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Hai Guise (Score:5, Funny)
I got two oscar tickets. Anyone want em? Asking $600 OBO.
Re:Hai Guise (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Hai Guise (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Services not found on Craigslist: (Score:5, Funny)
Legal representation
Well it's the court's fault. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well it's the court's fault. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Well it's the court's fault. (Score:5, Funny)
Now they will have to post the judgment in Missed Connections.
You: A worldwide free classified ad website that has become something of an internet phenomenon, posting furniture, prostitutes, musician-wanted, and dating ads all in one convenient place.
Me: The judgment issued the other day when you defaulted on your court appearance to defend against my issuance.
Parent
The perfect place to buy tickets is... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The perfect place to buy tickets is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real question is why the MPAA spent the money on lawyers and court costs when the could have just bought the tickets!
Parent
Re:The perfect place to buy tickets is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly. When they saw the specific tickets, they'd know who the seller was.
Parent
Why do the even HAVE tickets? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why do the even HAVE tickets? (Score:5, Funny)
And good thing they didn't. Tom Cruise and "-above-" pretty much includes 95% of the human population.
Parent
Re:Why do the even HAVE tickets? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Why do the even HAVE tickets? (Score:5, Informative)
I've gone to the Oscars.
When you are invited, you get a packet of various tickets. The tickets could be parceled out from a production company which gets a lot of say, ten of them. Or if you are a nominee, you may be sent them directly via an agent or manager. In the packet of tickets-- one is for the ceremony, another for the "Governor's Ball" afterwards. The Kodak theater has three or four levels inside-- if you are a nominee you have access to the bottom "floor level" and without the appropriate pass you will be kindly asked to stay up top. You also, if I remember right, get some kind of parking ticket that you give when you turn in your car to the valet, or that your limo driver keeps if you've got one of those. I could be wrong about that last part- cant' remember.
Here are some reasons for the tickets (and not a list): First of all, the list of attendees changes up to the last second. People are planning to go, then drop out, or have other people go in their place... it's a very fluid attendance list and I think it would be pretty difficult to keep it up to date. I'm thinking its much easier to let individuals deal with the politics of who's using the tickets than to try to centralize it. Plus, there would be people BSing to get their names added on the attendant list all over the place if it was as easy as calling in. Sure, tickets can be forged too, but I think they are individually numbered (?) and have glossy rainbow printing and stuff all over them...
Also-- have you ever seen the red carpet? It's about the width of a city street. Fans on one side holding signs, and the press on the other holding cameras, both on bleachers. The red carpet is fast moving and chaotic. When you go to the oscars, you are part of a 45-minute flow of people who drop off their cars, head through a giant tent-like thing where they take your ticket, then you pass through one of about twelve metal detectors, then proceed through the red carpet. Among the actors and well-known celebrities are the majority-- these include more technical nominees (sound, sfx), producers, writers, etc. And most people-- celebrities and non- bring dates and family. It would be a real pain to ID every single person who passes through, and the flow of people would virtually grind to a halt...
I suppose they COULD use a list.. but it would be just as much of a cluster fuck I think.
Hope this helps...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
To be fair, Xenu flew a bunch of people he didn't like into a volcano, coach.
Re:Why do the even HAVE tickets? (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides this, has anything illegal actually happened?
They say 'our tickets can not be resold'. That's not a law, that's not a court order, that's not anything other than a company whining about someone doing something they don't like with a piece of paper they gave away or sold themselves.
This isn't even software with a stupid license agreement. It's a physical ticket.
Going further, one has to assume the 'seller' really does have the ticket and really will make a sale. Why do you think they wait on drug busts until AFTER an undercover has completed the purchase? Even if the sale were somehow illegal, it hasn't actually happened.
All this in addition to their insane claims about 'security'. If it was so important they WOULD be checking ID.
Parent
Does Daniel have any rights in this matter? (Score:5, Interesting)
What did you expect? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but.. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:What did you expect? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:What did you expect? (Score:4, Insightful)
They should have shown up, they took a chance for good PR and turned it into really bad PR.
Whether the Academy had any right to that information has no bearing on this, they should have shown up to court and fought. Now anybody who wants their data will just file a suit.
Parent
Re:What did you expect? (Score:5, Insightful)
Things this does not include:
Ads.
Huge profits.
Legal division.
Do we really want Craig to have to start putting ads everywhere so he can protect users that do stupid stuff? I don't.
Parent
craigslist could use some cleanup? (Score:5, Interesting)
Normally I would completely agree that privacy must be protected wherever and whenever possible. Both my heart and my head tells me that privacy is an essential right.
Having said that, could craigslist use a little bit of "cleanup" from the scam artists, vice decoy hookers (keep the real ones!), and other bad elements that are hiding behind the anonimity of CL as an essential part of their scam?
I realize that the key word there is "bad"-- who is to judge what is 'bad' or 'good' except the other party in the transaction?
I just wonder if CL purposefully ignored the court date in hopes of such a cleanup, or if they were simply too busy smoking some dope and selling some old furniture (both are fine hobbies to have) to remember to go downtown.
Re:craigslist could use some cleanup? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:craigslist could use some cleanup? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Damn it. (Score:4, Funny)
Craigslist Forced? (Score:4, Funny)
More like CL didn't care. They didn't care enough to show up to court, so they didn't care enough to fight about it.
The sad thing is, I'm not really surprised. They have warnings in their real estate section of housing wanted/for sale that states that if you post something like "Only Mexican People Can Buy/Live-in My House" you will get fined - so they must be down with sharing your info when asked for it.
If they're worried about who's in the theater... (Score:5, Insightful)
If they're worried about who's in the theater, then it seems like they'd be more interested in the identity of those *buying* the tickets, no? Do they have prohibitions against giving the tickets away if you get them legitimately? Can I donate them to a charity auction, and do they send the Oscar Gestapo to the auction to fingerprint and photograph the winners at the charity auction?
If not, then why is Craigslist such a security threat?
Obligatory Simpsons (Score:5, Funny)
Have you seen the CL privacy page? (Score:5, Informative)
And look at the terms of use, particularly item 2.
Was Craigslist expected to not reveal the seller?
Re:Have you seen the CL privacy page? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.craigslist.org/about/privacy.policy.html [craigslist.org]
The first link I got from the craigslist home page. I thought it was funny that it was 404ed. The correct link I got from the terms of use page.
However, if you read the correct privacy page, it says this:
We don't share your information with third parties for marketing purposes.
I'd say this isn't marketing purposes.
Parent
Re:Have you seen the CL privacy page? (Score:5, Informative)
Craigslist may disclose information about its users if required to do so by law or in the good faith belief that such disclosure is reasonably necessary to respond to subpoenas, court orders, or other legal process.
If you look at that, there's really no deal at all. Craigslist is doing exactly what they said they would
Parent
Re:Have you seen the CL privacy page? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
nobody here respects the concept (Score:4, Interesting)
of a corporation dragging you into court on bullshit pretenses
given that thought, not showing up to court is really the only course of action you can take
of course, there are also those who want to see someone else fight their battles. this is the only reason in which you yourself who do not respect the legal status quo can expect someone else to respect the legal status quo for you
and to some extent, this is a valid attitude: if that someone else fighting for you is big and powerful while you are small and weak
but as others have noted, craigslist really is just craig and a few dudes in san francisco. they may have the exposure of a large corporation, btu they aren't a large corporation. as such, they are in the boat with you and me: someone else needs to fight this battle, or craigslist, due to the legal environment of our modern times, needs to give in to reality and turn into a corporate turd pile and fund a bunch of corporate lawyer whores in order to retain its integrity in the face of such legal bullshit
i dunno, i'm torn. i say fuck the courts on the issue of corporate chicanery, ignore them. but then they win by default in terms of enforceable rulings. such that you have to fund the legions of corporate lawyer whores
or kill them all. hard to say
"Papers Please" (Score:5, Insightful)
You:But all I want to do is to see the movie.
Clerk:Sorry Sir but we have to know who is in the theater. It is afterall for your own protection.
One possible explanation (Score:3, Interesting)
conform with the rest of the industry. (Score:5, Interesting)
'If you don't know who's inside the theater, it's very difficult to provide security.'
Then require people to show ID. Try to do security like the rest of the world. If you can sell tickets and not know who is at the Oscars, then what stops some one from tying up ticket holder and taking their tickets to the Oscars?
I'm simply do not understand what legal right one private organization has to enforce its policy on a completely unrelated organization?
Silly (Score:4, Insightful)
This strikes me as the classic fallacy for suing online service providers, to challenge the messenger for the messages that they deliver. Craigslist is about as fast and lose as sites seem to come, and all that's needed is a legitimate email address to post ~ which costs about five cents and ten minutes to set up. The service has absolutely no guarantees of poster accuracy, honesty, or legitimacy ~ honestly, about on par with a web board. Keeping eBay and Amazon on their toes is valid, in my book, solely for the fact that their sites enable transactions, but beyond that, it's buyer beware.
This lawsuit makes about as much sense as bringing the FTC in to a flea market. You can't impose any sorts of regulations without completely warping the existing system, in which case it's no longer a flea market.
So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Jurisdiction bites (Score:5, Interesting)
So, Craigslist is in San Francisco, yes? And the court case was in Los Angelos. Sure, it's the same state, but California is big, that's a full day's drive apart (8-12 hours depending on route). So, as usual, the people suing chose a venue that's not where the supposably offending business is located.
That's the real problem here. To expect someone to have to take 3 days off to fly or drive a long distance to attend each and every spurious lawsuit just means you can do a Denial of Service Real World... file lots of lawsuits until the airfare bankrupts the given target.
Re:Craigslist (Score:5, Insightful)
Possibly, or they realized that they'd lose the case and chose to not bother wasting money on it.
While the reason is bunk, the people running the event do have the right to keep people out if they want to. People who are invited don't have the right to sell.
I'm not really sure how it's in the best interest of people that use Craig's list to have them wasting money defending such clear cut cases in court.
I mean seriously, you don't really have to be an attorney to recognize that a private event run by a private organization that stipulates as a condition for receiving an invite that the tickets are non-transferable would have the legal right to deny entrance to those people.
The suit here is so that they can figure out who it is and avoid giving the person tickets in the future.
I'm not really sure what part of that is actually shady. (Excepting of course the explanation of why it's necessary to make the tickets non-transferable)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That isn't really the point... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't blame the academy for wanting tighter security, and they have a valid reason for WANTING to know the identity, but security at the Oscars isn't Craigslist's responsibility, and they're not ENTITLED to that identity.
Forcing Craig's to stop the auction and prevent the sale? Reasonable. I would think that the extent of their liability would be to remove the auction of (what are presumably) non-transferrable tickets. Had they actually shown up in court, they could have had a good shot at protecting the sellers identity.
There's potential here for an unfortunate precedent.
Parent
Re:That isn't really the point... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's potential here for an unfortunate precedent.
IANAL, but I think a judgement without representation from the accused isn't very good precedent (if at all) and is easily overturned.
Parent
Re:That isn't really the point... (Score:5, Insightful)
But I believe it's pretty standard. In a case of "your word against his", if his is silent, yours wins. I was told that you should always fight a ticket if you think that the officer won't show up (but more and more officers are being required to show up, so I think this is less true now)....it's basically the same thing. If Craigslist didn't care enough to show up, they didn't care enough about the outcome. Of course, there's also something to be said if notification was not properly handled.
Layne
Parent
Re:That isn't really the point... (Score:5, Insightful)
Explain to me why Craigslist would want or bother to pay for the legal defense of someone selling something they have no right to sell?
Perhaps if this had been an actual privacy issue, Craigs might feel inclined to step up.
Consider that the Academy has an established precedent of defending its legal rights. Ever wonder why you can rarely buy an Oscar on eBay?
Also, where does Craigs make any promise of privacy to it's users? The randomized emails they offer posters are just one step above the security provide by lock on your front door. If someone wants to get in there, they're not going through the lock, they're going through the decorative glass window.
Parent
Since when does Craigslist operate auctions? (Score:4, Informative)
Craigslist doesn't manage auctions.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
If you sell your Oscar tickets on Craigslist, the terrorists win.