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MySpace Suicide Charges Threaten Free Speech
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Aug 05, 2008 07:40 PM
from the then-we-are-all-criminals dept.
from the then-we-are-all-criminals dept.
Naturalist recommends a piece up at Ars about a friend-of-the-court brief filed by the EFF, CDT, Public Citizen, and a group of 14 law professors in the case of Lori Drew, who posed as a teenage boy to harass another teen online, eventually driving her to suicide. (We've discussed the case a few times.) "[The amicus brief argues] that violating MySpace's Terms of Service agreement shouldn't be considered criminal offense under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. The groups believe that if the mother, Lori Drew, is prosecuted using CFAA charges, the case could have significant ramifications for the free speech rights of US citizens using the Internet."
Related Stories
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Your Rights Online: Woman Indicted In MySpace Suicide Case 654 comments
longacre writes "The Associated Press is reporting an indictment has been handed down in the sad case of Megan Meier, the girl who committed suicide after receiving upsetting MySpace messages from someone she perceived to be her boyfriend. It was later determined the boy, Josh Evans, was a fictitious identity created by a neighbor of Meier's family. Lori Drew, of a St. Louis suburb, has been charged with 'one count of conspiracy and three counts of accessing protected computers without authorization to get information used to inflict emotional distress on the girl.' Interestingly, despite the alleged crime having occurred strictly in Missouri, the case was investigated by the FBI's St. Louis and Los Angeles field offices, and the trial will be held in Los Angeles, home of MySpace's servers. Wired is running a related story about the potentially 'scary' precedent this case could set."
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Your Rights Online: User Charged With Felony For Using Fake Name On MySpace 931 comments
Recently a user, Lori Drew, was charged with a felony for the heinous crime of pretending to be someone else on the Internet. Using the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, Lori was charged for signing up for MySpace using a fake name. "The access to MySpace was unauthorized because using a fake name violated the terms of service. The information from a "protected computer" was the profiles of other MySpace users. If this is found to be a valid interpretation of the law, it's really quite frightening. If you violate the Terms of Service of a website, you can be charged with hacking. That's an astounding concept. Does this mean that everyone who uses Bugmenot could be prosecuted? Also, this isn't a minor crime, it's a felony punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment per count. In Drew's case she was charged with three counts for accessing MySpace on three different occasions."
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Bad precedent... (Score:5, Insightful)
The facts in this particular case point to a truly twisted individual, but this individual is unable to be prosecuted for major jail time under current, non "novel" interpretations of law. The proper thing to do is to note this case, and realize the perpetrator is not guilty of a felony, and create a new law to handle this case, rather than trying to find some way to twist the law to put this person in jail "for something", which will open the floodgates of abuses.
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:5, Interesting)
I assume by "case" you mean "behavior".
What kind of behavior are you considering outlawing here? Being a dick? You want to outlaw being a dick on the internet?
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHA
Parent
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:5, Informative)
What kind of behavior are you considering outlawing here? Being a dick? You want to outlaw being a dick on the internet?
I can't speak for OP, but the behaviour we might want to look at is not simply being a dick, but conducting a calculated and sustained campaign of harrassment intended, with malice. to inflict serious physical &/or psychological damage on a specific individual. We might even want to extend it to a class of individuals to account for 'behaviours' such as planting epilepsy inducing graphics on epilepsy support boards and the like.
I agree with OP, that twisting an existing law for fear that this woman might get away with what she has done, when clearly she should not, is not an acceptable solution.
Parent
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's already a mechanism for dealing with this, it's called a restraining order.
How do you get a restraining order against someone who does not exist?
Parent
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is an adult who pushed a minor, with malice aforethought, into a high state of agitation and personal anguish. In my mind, that's straight up child abuse.
Whether it's prosecutable or not is for others to figure out, but at the very least, an enormous wrongful death suit can and should commence following this case, if it comes to pass that she is acquitted - which she might be.
The case does threaten a piece of free speech, but this is an adult who communicated attacks on a minor, with intent and malice to cause emotional harm to her (and succeeded). The bitch is going to account for that crime, one way or the other.
The parents of that child should keep an eye on where Drew goes after all this is over, if she is free. If she gets a job, rents an apartment, and buys Internet service, they should have newspaper clippings and a letter in hand to deliver to each and every manager and employer. Let them know who they're serving/employing.
Maybe it doesn't provide justice, and maybe it won't do anything. But perhaps someone in a position to make something happen will read it, and decide not to let this woman live so comfortably with the lives she's so callously and indifferently destroyed.
Parent
She'll win the trial.. (Score:4, Funny)
I'm sure she'll never get a real job ever again, though. In a job interview, question 2 will be "Wait... you're THE Lori Drew? That psycho-bitch?"
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking from personal experience, you don't get that depressed from a single person posting on a website/sending emails. You don't go from being a happy-go-lucky normal individual to a suicidal person overnight, over a month or likely even over a year. I started being depressed often from the age of about ten or eleven. I had a suicide attempt when I was twenty three. I do not blame anyone directly. I was in a bad place, and in retrospect the problem lay totally with ME. Why can't people learn to look at their own issues before pointing fingers and pushing blame to everyone else so quickly?
Parent
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't you have any harassment or bullying laws over there that the woman could be tried under? A computer was used for these purposes, as well as impersonation - if a cape and mask were used, would there have to be a cape and mask law for the woman to be tried under?
Parent
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:5, Insightful)
So that means that this woman shouldn't have to own up to her own actions?
I was driven to attempt suicide, in 8th grade, by ... well, it all stemmed from *one* incident, and then it snowballed from there. Eventually, the whole damn school would just relentless pick on me. I tried everything to stop it - ignoring it, fighting back, going through authority, nothing works like that.
Granted, some good things came of that, like the fact that I became involved in the OSS community as a way to escape (in fact, thanks to working on OSS in various ways, I'm able to be completely without my prozac ^-^).
Just because someone was 'emotionally weak' is no reason to excuse those who torment them. That's like saying that just because someone couldn't handle being shot at repeatedly that they 'deserved' to die.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Obtaining access by fraud is a felony. She lied to get access, therefore she obtained access by fraud. Therefore she committed a felony, QED.
Re:Bad precedent... (Score:5, Interesting)
Next time I fill in a fake name or address signing up on a web site I should be charged with a felony?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not necessarily; doing so requires an effort entirely disproportionate with the consequences of the fraud you committed. The State shouldn't prosecute you because there's no reason to- you didn't get anything out of it and neither will the State.
In this case, however, that's not true. This is where prosecutor's discretion does come into play.
So (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:So (Score:4, Insightful)
You're not likely to have an ongoing conversation with a fictitious person through the mail to the point that you think of them as your boyfriend.
The nature of the internet does make kinds of assholish behavior possible that were previously impractical.
Parent
This isn't about free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If I tell you to jump out of building will you jump? Who is guilty if you decide to jump?
Re:This isn't about free speech (Score:4, Informative)
Their argument is that by breaking MySpace's TOS she is gaining unauthorized access to the site (i.e., hacking it), and can be charged for that. If you don't see why this is a very bad thing, and can't be bothered to RTFA, I'll quote the relevant bits for you:
Parent
Re:This isn't about free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
What type of sick world do you live in where befriending someone you know is emotionally vulnerable for the express purpose of degrading and humiliating them does not classify as tormenting or cruel?
If you seriously see this as normal or even slightly acceptable behavior I have to strongly question your societal values and the people you associate with.
Parent
Re:This isn't about free speech (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, it's the god damned internet. That doesn't mean that people don't have emotions on the internet.
I'm actually against marking this as a criminal offense, also for free speech reasons, but seriously. The very idea that she wasn't tormenting that girl is total BS. You can torment someone in person, you can torment them on the phone, you can torment them over IM or on IRC or whatever. The internet does not grant magical anti-emotion powers.
Parent
The new Las Vegas (Score:5, Funny)
The internet does not grant magical anti-emotion powers.
Of course it does. What happens on the Internet stays on the Internet.
Parent
Re:This isn't about free speech (Score:4, Insightful)
What I think you're missing is the difference between "I can do something" and "I should do something".
This almost falls under my personal definition of torment as the woman did seek the girl out (if she hadnt and the girl had just found this fake boy online i would classify it as forthelulz and absolutely hilarious) with the intent to fuck with her, but that's the glory of the internet. You can fuck with anyone you want to (verbally, or would it be textually?) and pretend to be whoever you want, whatever you want, believe whatever you want, and just run with it.
Are you saying the reason it isn't torment is because the tormentor is anonymous? That doesn't seem logical definition of torment to me.
Parent
Re:This isn't about free speech (Score:5, Funny)
"It's"
Parent
Re:This isn't about free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
It was a classic case of trolling.
Shitcock is trolling.
Posting photoshopped pictures of Obama with a crackpipe between his lips is trolling.
Creating a persona as a Born-Again Christian and attempting to "save" people in atheist forums is trolling.
She pretended to be a boy who liked her, girl fell in love with her e-boyfriend, e-boyfriend then called her a slut and this that and the other thing, and the girl, who was mad fucked in the head and should have been receiving help went and offed herself.
That isn't trolling. That's a pure mindfuck and should be treated as such.
mad fucked in the head
I didn't realize the hoodrats knew about /.
It sucks someone died
No, it doesn't. Coming home from the grocery store and discovering half your eggs are cracked sucks. Having to bury your teenage daughter because of the actions of a sadistic sack of shit - that knew she had mental problems and exploited them - is a tragedy and a crime.
but there was nothing tormenting or cruel about what happened.
Dude. You need help.
Parent
Re:But it IS about the law... (Score:5, Informative)
There are plenty of laws that prohibit harassment. Here is an experiment you can try right in your own town/city. Go down town. Find some old lady walking down the road, and follow behind her calling out "fucking hag", "stupid bitch", "go die", as loud and as often as you find it within your power of free speech. No do this for most of the day, randomly switching out people (try to find the most pathetic persion you can, elderly, children, invalids, etc..) You'll quickly learn that there are plenty of laws that prohibit this type of behavior.
Besides, have you even bothered typing "harassment laws"?
Parent
Nothing tech about this case... (Score:5, Insightful)
Harassment and emotional abuse can be performed in person or over the Internet, and I've got to imagine that charges for wanton malicious actions against a minor will have much stiffer penalties than a simple ToS violation.
I don't mean to be too jaded here, but it doesn't much sense to me to be bringing an uncertain case against someone with a new law, unless the prosecuting attorney is seeking a landmark decision to put on a resume.
Certainly there must be a better choice than a new law when the actions of one lead another (esp. a minor) to suicide?
Civil Case (Score:5, Insightful)
The girl's family should sue this woman in Civil Court for the wrongful death of their daughter. The burden of proof is much lower in civil court than in criminal, and they could ruin this woman for the rest of her life -- which is a hell of a lot more than she deserves, because she still gets to draw breath, but their daughter doesn't. And there daughter would still be alive today if not for this woman's depraved actions.
so short sited. (Score:4, Interesting)
There are individuals who would say it is obscene to see white women kissing black men, and at one point in time they may have had a large enough majority to make it law if they had the legal means to invalidate the right of free speech. If you have any infringement on the right to free speech based on what is right or wrong, or inflammatory, you risk completly destroying that right and making it just a privilege.
This case has a girl that was harmed in a new way that no law exists to properly prosecute. It shows the need for new laws, not the destruction of old rights. We have protection to these rights because of these kinds of actions, If it is OK to throw out rights based on criminal offenses then it's possible to throw them out on others.
This time, you just gotta read the article! (Score:5, Interesting)
The point isn't that the lady said bad things that drove a kid to suicide, or that the lady used the internet to do it. The lady should be subject to ordinary liability for that--just like any person who did the same thing on the street, or in the mail, or whatever. That's not the issue.
The issue is the terms of service agreement! That thing you click on and ignore so many times. That thing you send phony information so that the corporation doesn't get too personal on you!
If you type in phony information, (FRAUD, daddy), and then hurt somebody's feelings while on the account procured by fraud, the Federales can prosecute you for a crime. Think about the slippery slope this affords . . .
You gotta love the ingenuity of those federal prosecutors!
Freedom of Speech != Say Anything w/o Repurcussion (Score:5, Insightful)
You have the right to say anything, and be heard, however, what you say can get you into trouble.
If you don't like the war, and you protest, and make speeches that the war is bad, and that you think the president is mistaken, that's protected under the freedom of speech.
If you don't like the war, and you protest, and make threats against the president, then you will be held accountable and the threats will be taken seriously.
If you are a psychiatrist whose job it is to help people through emotional problems, and you tell your client - you're fucked up, chances are that not only will the patient not get better, but you will be sued, and if something happens to the patient, like suicide, then chances are you will be prosecuted in some form or other.
If you are a normal person, who, by using a false identity, abuses someone or their character in such a way that it erodes their self-esteem, sense of self-worth, sense of self, to such a degree that they commit suicide, then you are most definitely guilty of abuse, both mental and emotional abuse, and should be held accountable as contributing to the death of said person.
This would be the case regardless of the technology used. The only thing this technology granted was a sense of anonymity that was properly given up due to the bizarre circumstances of the case.
If you were to stand at your fence in your backyard and belittle the child-next-door, calling them names, worthless, pieces of garbage, day in and day out, chances are you'd be faced with at least a law-suit if not a visit by the police. Why would doing this over the internet be any different? Should someone who intentionally abuses another person be protected just because they used the internet to do it? Should they expect a right to privacy or anonymity just because they tried to hide their identity before making those actions? I don't think so, and would hope that you wouldn't as well.
It's called hazing (Score:3, Interesting)
And a lot states already have laws against this...
From the Texas law:
"Any activity that intimidates or threatens the student with ostracism, that subjects the student to extreme mental stress, shame or humiliation"
I know this was intended for fraternities/sororities, but I don't see anything in the writing that limits the law to colleges.
A Few Misconceptions (Score:4, Informative)
It seems like most of the replies here aren't fully informed about the issues of the case and are looking at the "free speech" in the subject the wrong way, so here's a brief overview.
Originally the prosecution looked to charge her for harassment and/or threatening behavior. However, under the law at the time, her speech was considered protected speech, and the prosecution decided that they didn't have a case for harassment. (The law has since been amended so if she did that now, she could very easily charged).
The prosecution ultimately decided to indict her [wired.com] using an anti-hacking law that prevents "unauthorized access to a computer." The argument is that by misrepresenting herself on myspace, she violated the Terms of Service. Therefore, her access to Myspace's Servers was unauthorized, and she committed a felony by using myspace while violating their ToS. The indictment is not for harassment/threatening behavior. It's for breaking the ToS of a website, which the hacking law has never been used for before.
As the EFF amicus brief points out, if violating the ToS of a site is criminal behavior, this has far reaching implications. Google has something in their Terms of Service that says you have to be 18 to use google. According to the prosecution in this case, anyone under 18 who does a google search is a felon. Facebook's ToS has a provision that says you must keep all information in your profile up to date. If i change my favorite movie and don't update my facebook account promptly, i'm a felon.
This is not an issue of harassment vs. free speech. I think we all agree that Lori Drew is an ass and ideally, she should be punished. However, don't try and get her on an obscure law that will have far reaching implications. Violating the terms of service on a website (which a large majority of people don't even read fully) should not be a criminal offense. That's what this case is seeking to do
Hold on a second... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes, all the parents can do is be supportive and listen when their kid doesn't want to talk. If the kid won't talk to his/her parents... what did you want the parents to do? Tie them up and force them to speak?
Anyways, my point is that Good Parents don't always have good kids. And parents (unfortunately) can't always get their kids to open up and talk to them.
I guess your mom would kick you out of her basement if you were rebellious, so I can't expect you to understand.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This is a nature-vs-nurture argument; you clearly fall on the side of nature. We could fill an entire /. thread with arguments on this one, so I'll just respectfully disagree with you on this one and leave it at that (my belief: 80% nurture).
From my experience as a teenager -- not THAT long ago -- and experience with my younger brother's circle, I don't find this to be the no
Re:Hold on a second... (Score:4, Insightful)
If the kid won't talk to his/her parents... what did you want the parents to do? Tie them up and force them to speak?
Yeah, that wouldn't be bad.
When I was a teenager I was like this. (Not the suicidal bit, just the part where I didn't want to talk to my parents.) I think it would have been really good for me if they had sat down and really forced me to discuss things. I kept a lot of stuff to myself, and it wasn't healthy. I made some errors in high school and in my first year of college that I regret, and I wish somebody with more sense would have been aware enough of what was going on to talk to me, tell me how dumb I was being in a supportive manner, and set me straight. But my parents respected my wish to be left alone and as such I ended up on my own when I didn't really want to be.
Now, I turned out alright, and I don't hold this against my parents. But yeah, if your teens don't want to talk, force 'em. Make a habit out of sitting down with them and prying information out. Find out what's going on in their lives. If they don't like it, tough. A teenager may think he's an adult, may try to act like an adult, may go out and do adult things, but ultimately he's still a child (at least an the lower end of the range, like this girl was). And you're still that child's parents. You're not their friend, not their roommate. You're not doing them a favor by leaving them alone or respecting their wishes not to talk.
Far too many teenagers end up in an adversarial situation with their parents. And I think the cause is, paradoxically, because parents try to be too friendly with their children. Far too often, when a daughter hits the teen years her mother says, woo, now we can go out and do fun girly stuff together! The same thing with sons and fathers, except not girly. Parenting needs to be based on respect and authority, not friendship. Children usually already have friends, they don't need two more. What they don't have are role models, authority figures, and people who can give sound advice from a perspective of older age.
The most screwed up young adults I know are those whose parents tried to be friends with them. Conversely, the most well adjusted young adults I know are those whose parents stayed in the role as a parent. They weren't mean or cruel or overbearing, but they raised their kids instead of befriending them.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If your child -- YOUR CHILD -- was depressed enough to commit suicide, how could you not know?
Most people who are severely depressed actually hide their feelings from others, which includes not letting people know they are suicidal. Have a quick read of things like Black Dog Institute [blackdoginstitute.org.au] to catch up to the rest of the world.
Secondly, I do in fact totally agree that the original case is bogus - which I assume is what you mean by your comments here. BUT I do on
Re:lolwut (Score:5, Insightful)
If someone harasses you IRL, who do you blame? The... air that carried their words to your ears?
No, you blame the person who's harassing you, which is exactly what's going on in this case. Like it says in your own quote, the case is against the woman whose harassment drove this girl to suicide, not the web site she used as a medium.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Insightful)
This is Slashdot. I bet 90% of us here would have come into contact with bullying or emotional harassment. Sure we've gotten our own back, but when you're a kid things are different. While I think the OP is being a little insensitive, I don't think you can draw a line from "Internet boyfriend acting like a dickhead" to "Ok I'm going to commit suicide".
Suicide is not a natural response to bullying, especially when that's not even face-to-face, which is what we experienced. If it was, most of us wouldn't be here. Either the girl had other problems which lead to her suicide (likely) or she was simply mentally unstable. In either of those cases the medium through which the straw that broke the camels back travelled is not relevant.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Interesting)
Even if this adult perpetrator knew she was unstable? You must've had it rough. I didn't have any adult bullies in high school, just the stupid jock types my own age.
However, if violating the TOS is the only charge, as the summary suggests, then I reluctantly think she should be let off.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Insightful)
She didn't know it was an adult bullying her. And it wasn't even a "stupid jock type" in a school environment. It was someone acting like a douche bag via text. Words.
My point is that kids get bullied everyday. Face-to-face. They get abused emotionally, physically. That's not a good thing. It's a terrible thing. But it happens, and only a small proportion actually kill themselves. This girl apparently killed herself because someone she'd never met was writing bad words about her. Bullying is not good and it's not acceptable. I'm not that it is. But it's also foolish to pretend that this one particular case is all that's needed to make someone commit suicide.
That's why I think there were other problems with this girl - be they other forms of bullying at school or some kind of mental illness. If the real problem is bullying or mental illness then THOSE are the issues that should be argued about and debated in the media and in Parliament/Congress. Not things like MySpace's Terms and Conditions.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the point is that an adult with a fully developed brain deliberately set out to screw with a kid. Kids may do the same, but they're unlikely to be as competent at the manipulation because they don't have the perspective provided by experience and maturation of the brain.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes that's also a problem. And she should probably be charged with harassment or something like that. But she isn't. Instead we're setting stupid precedents with far-reaching ramifications that won't do anything to stop bullying or punish bullies.
Seriously, my only point has been that the problem is bullying. Let's focus on that. If there isn't a criminal charge for the pre-mediated and long-term harassment of a child by an adult then there should be. Deal with that problem before screwing up things you don't understand.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Insightful)
And she should probably be charged with harassment or something like that.
There's an old legal axiom that, "hard cases make bad law." This was a hard case in that an adult deliberately harassed a young girl and that harassment caused a nasty result. Since everyone was up in arms against her behavior, which was apparently not within any state or local laws, the prosecutors stretched to find anything that they could charge her with and thus satisfy the "somebody needs to do something" contingent. However, if this charge continues, the bad law will set another precedent to strip another bit of freedom from the rest of us.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Ahh... and the end result of stupidity... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, we all know we need more laws to keep us "safe" from the terminally stupid.
Lets see... if you had kids... how would you raise them? To be offended by losing at kickball and have the "authorities" pass new rules outlawing kickball in school, because, like, gosh, someone's feelings got hurt by losing? To be offended by bullies and whine to "authority figures" to save them? I know this is the wrong forum to ask reasonable attitude and problem questions like these. Seems almost obvious, if you're defending the terminally stupid, and their idiot parents who were too busy to raise their kid to be strong enough to make it, you'll probably end up defending such idiocy as "the government should make it illegal to harass the terminally stupid until they do what they'd do eventually ayways."
Because we all know we need MORE laws and punishment for harmless hazing crap that ALL of us put up with. And it was painful until we either learned, or had it taught to us (if our minds were capable of learning and thus surviving) that what other people think is usually pretty worthless. Most people are willing victims and have been raised by the current societies to be WAITING victims and victim worshipers. You'll have to pardon me from abstaining from the rampant victim worship. Willing victims are to be detested not worshiped. Its like the jews who willingly got on those trains, or the japanese who willingly got interned in the USA, or the fools in germany who surrendered their arms to the authorities or the fools who didn't put up a sign "trespassers will be shot" in New Orleans during Katrina. You don't let the bullies know to stop early, or STOP them... and you end up a victim.
Most people today aspire to be good little dogs, to obey, and to hopefully never get kicked. But guess what... shit happens. The only way shit will NOT happen, is to be locked up in a padded cell... and even then your jailers will mistreat you.
Just like reading an article about some idiot who hurt himself by not wearing eye protection while using power tools. What is the headline?? "New regulations may be necessary for construction sites."
Gee, you mean the huge OSHA bureaucracy couldn't stop one retard who wasn't wearing his recommended gear, namely eye protection? What the hell more can be done to keep the stupid safe from their stupidity? hell we shouldn't even be paying to keep stupids in good health. Their fully deserved darwinian deserts would be to be permitted to fully enjoy the fruits of their stupidity... and I should fully enjoy the fruits of my labors, as should you and everyone else. Instead we have to pay taxes to keep "lawmakers" in their non productive labors of telling us how to walk and talk around stupids. Yep, more political correctness. As if there wasn't enough.
Some day, all this shit will blow back. I just hope its before I have kids. I really don't want any child of mine growing up amongst this pathetic generation of weaklings. Hell if I raise them right they'll be punished for being "insensitive"... "let the other kids win a turn"... "oh now we have to make that game illegal too, because winning damages self esteem for the losers."
I mean damn... I'm not that old, but when I grew up, losing was something to learn from (I agree that few do, the proper victim mindset is to get depressed when losing, and its a mindset that is inculcated by movies, literature and school)... in school it was always frowned upon to make mistakes... outside of school mistakes were crucial and very useful. I believe that old greek fellow who shouted Eureka had spilled something, hadn't he?
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:4, Insightful)
what you are ignoring is that we all have some armor against getting hurt by other people. If you know someone is your enemy then there is less of an effect on you since you know that this person isn't your friend and is just trying to get to you.
Everybody wears masks and mostly you get to see what they want you to see we play roles be it doctor engineer whatever. Mostly people automatically say fine, when asked how are you. It's a ritual you say fine because the other person doesn't want to know most of the time. Most interaction is just role playing.
Love on the other hand tends to go with trust and you share things which makes you vulnerable, your without your armor, you might not share everything probably don't for most of us.
Having a strong emotional bond with someone, means that someone could hurt you beyond anything anybody else could do.
What I'm saying is the person you love the most can hurt you so badly you might commit suicide, most of us will do something less extreme, get drunk or maybe not date for a while.
Experience tells us that relationships fail and you get over it.
This girl did not have this experience and to top it off she wasn't just dumped
but faced an overwhelming assault on her whole emotional being from the person she was closest to.
An interesting legal argument in uk law at least is that you can be found guilty of murder if you procure someone to act as your instrument, ie hire a hitman, or persuade your boyfriend to kill your husband for example.
did "josh" procure megan to act as his instrument to kill megan? Ok "josh" probably didn't want megan dead just seriously hurt. Therefore a lesser charge such as manslaughter (murder in the 3rd degree?) should apply. I should explain Murder carries a mandatory life sentence in the uk, Manslaughter allows a judge considerable leeway in what sentence to apply.
Manslaughter would seem to be a reasonable sentence for the circumstances and actions surrounding megans death.
The issue of bullying in general is a nasty can of worms to open , when does standard working practice become abuse? It isn't easy to define, evidence is hard to obtain and what may be devastating to one individual will have no effect on another.
Finally at Megans age with her lack of experience, the hormonal changes she was experiencing as most teenagers do with the abuse of trust from "josh" Is suicide so surprising?
I would agree though MySpace's terms and conditions should have no bearing on this what so ever.
Parent
It's not that simple (Score:5, Insightful)
1. At a quick googlin, 16.3% of the deaths in males aged between 15-24 is suicide. Way ahead of, say, cancer at 6.8% or heart disease at 3.9%. That was a statistic for 1998, but I don't expect things to have changed too dramatically. Apparently in Australia in 2005, two thirds of the deaths between 12 and 24 years old were suicides. Two thirds. That's immense.
So it's not an entirely unnatural response to stress and depression, either. It happens.
2. Well, yes. And the perpetrator deliberately used that.
Yes, some people are more fragile than others. That doesn't excuse preying on them.
To give some analogies, just because some old lady barely walks to a walking stick, it may make it easier to snatch her purse and run away, but it doesn't make it more morally justifiable. Just because someone is in a wheelchair, it may make it easier to mug him (I mean, it's not like he's gonna dodge or run away too fast), but again it's not more morally justifiable. Etc.
If anything, from where I stand, it just makes the perpetrator more heartless and worthy of contempt.
In this case the lady _knew_ that the neighbour's girl is depressed and suicidal. She had already talked about suicide in third grade, and was seeing a therapist about it ever since. And she just took it as an invitation to try to actually drive her to suicide. I'm sorry, I can't really see her as anything else than a monster.
3. We're not talking just a random forum flame war, or one mean message or two. Lori Drew spent a whole fucking year first gaining the girl's trust, and then mounting a _massive_ online campaign against her. She not only posted all the girl's secrets, but also produced a storm of messages about how Megan is fat and a _slut_.
More importantly, this is the final message that pushed the girl to suicide: "Everybody in O'Fallon knows how you are. You are a bad person and everybody hates you. Have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you."
I'm sorry, but telling someone who's already massively depressed and suicidal that the world would be better without her...
It's not just callous or insensitive. The whole thing reeks of deliberately creating the setup and then as much stress as possible, to make sure she breaks down. And spending a year for that. A whole year dedicated to killing the neigbour's daughter.
I don't know about you, but in my book that's premeditated murder. The whole sequence of events served only one purpose and achieved it.
4. You _could_ say that the girl could/should have been tough and ignored it, but that still doesn't excuse the perpetrator.
I mean, seriously, if I were to knife you and take your wallet, equally it could be argued that you could/should have been spry and dodged the knife. You could/should have taken some martial arts lessons and disarmed the attacker. It still doesn't excuse the criminal, either way.
Plus, again, she chose a victim who was already known as an easy target for that.
Pretty much. Regardless of the medium involved, it's still a convoluted case of premeditated murder.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:4, Insightful)
Imagine your whole life is changed because you met one girl. Everything you thought mattered is irrelevant, and the only thing you want is to be with her, and take care of her. You get comfortable, it looks like you can make it happen, you work so hard, she smiles, she laughs. You start to realize you never really knew joy or happiness, and that you truly understand what life is about now. Next day. She hates you. End of story.
I realise this is Slashdot, and not Lavalife, but I don't need to imagine. My girlfriend of a few years cheated on me. Am I killing myself? No.
This is silly. Sometimes people have to take responsibility for their actions, or maybe look a bit further for what the root causes were of the problem. I'm not trying to understate her death in anyway. I'm trying to say that I find it difficult to believe that her life is just peachy and then when her internet friend whom she's never met says nasty things about her, she commits suicide. I think that this whole "MySpace/Internet/Evil Adult" thing is taking us away from the real discussion which should be about bullying and mental illness.
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't mean offence to you, but what you're saying is kind of silly. Your logic goes "Well it was her first boyfriend and she was teen. So therefore she committed suicide. And if you were a teen and it was your first girlfriend, you would also have committed suicide".
If that was the case, a lot of people wouldn't be alive. Why can't you just accept that I find it extremely hard to believe that being dumped by an online boyfriend who said mean things about her was the only thing that went wrong in her life and was the only factor in her suicide?
Parent
Re:Die Emo Die (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine your whole life is changed because you met one girl. Everything you thought mattered is irrelevant, and the only thing you want is to be with her, and take care of her. You get comfortable, it looks like you can make it happen, you work so hard, she smiles, she laughs. You start to realize you never really knew joy or happiness, and that you truly understand what life is about now.
That happens to millions of people. Yeah, it hurts for a while, but you either move on, or you get so caught up in yourself that you keep dwelling in something that happens to everyone.
Your life is now nothing. The pain is massive. Emotional pain can strip you of everything; no form of physical torture can compare. It will consume and destroy you; if it passes a certain point and you DON'T kill yourself off, you'll be left a hollow shell incapable of really recovering. You'll live a life lost, where everything seems pale and insignificant, incomplete, and you smile at the simple things when you can but still find no satisfaction in the finer joys of being alive.
What? You're joking, right? That's pretty self-centered, ain't it? To compare something so temporary with actual torture, to say that something so common will take all joy out of your life. If what you say were true, NO ONE would be happy.
When someone's already having emotional trouble, and is going through a hormonal/emotional development stage, and is lacking emotional growth experience to cope, they're ripe for crafting this exact situation. Probably not enough to really trash their life if they survive it, but enough to make it obvious to them that life isn't worth living right now.
No. If someone really kills themselves over that, they were either raised to think they're the only human in existence, or there is something else massively wrong in their lives. I'm not trying to sound cold to the girl, but as far as I can tell, suicide is caused more by self absorption that this 'pain' you speak of. Either way, the parent poster is correct; suicide is not a natural response to bullying.
Parent