Best Terrestrial/OTA HDTV Setup For an Apartment?

thesandbender writes "I don't watch TV but keep an HTPC for watching movies. One of my relatives is very ill and I'll have a lot of family rotating through my apartment and I'd like to have a few more options for entertainment. I'm running Vista MCE and bought a Hauppauge HVR-1800 with a DB8 HDTV antenna and I've used AntennaWeb to point the DB8 in the best direction. The results have been terrible and I'm looking for recommendations / suggestions for hardware and setup. I am on the first floor of a three-story apartment building and I can't mount any external antennas (I know this is a major issue). Thankfully almost all the transmitters are located in the same place so a good, compact directional antenna might be effective. And please... no platform bashing. They all have their issues (I have a lot of h.264 encoded files... hardware/GPU acceleration on Linux is very, very limited at the moment)."

Not enough gain?

[ColaMan (37550)]

Try a masthead antenna amplifier. Get a good quality one and (hopefully) it will help compensate for the god-awful frontend in your TV tuner.

(Yes, I know masthead amps are really to compensate for long cable runs, but a low noise amp at the front upping things by 10-12dB is sometimes all it takes.)

Re:Not enough gain?

[Knackster (858532)]

The low noise benefits of mast mounted pre-amplifiers are good. Remember that most ota hd channels are in the UHF range so get an amp with gain in that band. Also: Try www.tvfool.com for aiming. Lots more information available to use.

Re:

[digitalaudiorock (1130835)]

Important note!...I don't know where the original poster is (or if they're even in the U.S.), but in many areas, as of the 2/2009 switch to all digital many DTV stations are moving from their current UHF frequencies to the VHF frequency where they now have their analog broadcast. In the New York area this is true for ABC, TheWB, and PBS, whose DTV broadcasts will be moved to 7, 11, and 13 respectively. I don't believe this is true for any VHF frequencies lower below channel 7.

...not that that stopped a sl

Re:Not enough gain?

[by Anonymous Coward]

I've been watching terrestrial ATSC with an indoor antenna and a MythTV box for several years now. I agree -- amplification is key. In my case, I don't have the luxury of power near my antenna, so I just installed an inexpensive (~$25) powered amp near my PC, and it had a very positive effect. You can pick one up almost anywhere...you can even try the A/V section at your local Target/WalMart.

Cabling to your antenna is also important if it's any distance from the PC. I recommend you keep it at least across the room from the PC, which can generate quite a bit of RF noise. Plus, the extra cable length will give you room to maneuver/aim your antenna. I suggest RG-59 (coax) as opposed to twisted pair. Again, you can get it cheaply at WalMart.

For an indoor antenna, I use a small outdoor UHF-only antenna I got at Radio Shack for ~$25. (It's basically just the small front piece from a full-size rooftop antenna -- a ~3' "spike" in the middle of a V-shaped reflector.) It takes up some space, but works a lot better than indoor antennas I've tried.

Lastly, it will take some amount of experimentation... AntennaWeb will give you a good idea where your local transmitters are, but indoor antennas are subject to lots of reflections and noise, so you might get better results by aiming the antenna a few degrees off of the "correct" orientation...left, right, or even vertically.

Only solutions...

[Lumpy (12016)]

1- violate your lease and get your antenna higher.
2- get cable tv.

sorry but you cant find a magical antenna that will pull in signals without getting it off the ground. you have to get an antenna into the air and away from obstructions. you can try to get a pair of high gain UHF bowtie array antennas from wineguard or channelmaster, but those will look very ugly and take up 4 feet by 3 feet in your sliding glass door.

Re:

[Kamokazi (1080091)]

Yeah, just cough up for some basic cable service for a few months. Most of the traditional cable companies don't do contracts so signing up for a couple months and then ditching them won't result in termination fees.

Get satellite tv

[by Anonymous Coward]

If you're in the US, you can tell the land lord to piss off, they can not stop you from getting a satellite dish. I had a similar problem with my HOA, and Fed law trumps HOAs and landlords.

Re:Get satellite tv

[Awptimus Prime (695459)]

You only have the ability to do this when it comes to sticking a dish on your porch. You still don't have any rights to have the install guy go nailing a dish where ever it may be needed to get a signal.

If your porch faces north or if there's no place on the porch to get a signal due to buildings or plants, you are still out of luck.

The best thing he can do is just stick an antenna on the porch or in a window frame and hope for the best.

Speaking of outdoor antennas, go to some place like Best Buy with a no-hassle return policy. Get a cheap model, try it, if it doesn't work, take it back and keep upgrading until you've got something that works. It's a nice way of doing a bit of experimenting on their tab. More expensive doesn't mean better, as I get all the local HD channels with a pair of rabbit ears hooked up to my setup.

Nothing looks as cool as a $4200 panel with a $5 radio shack pair of rabbit ears stuck on top of it. :)

Stay away from Best Buy

[Andy Dodd (701)]

Nearly all of the B&M electronics retailers sell absolutely horribly shitty antennas. (There are occasionally decent ones but it's RARE.)

If you want to get a good antenna you need to go to a specialty store (likely online) or in many cases you'll have luck at home improvement stores like Home Depot or Lowes.

Look for products from Channel Master or Winegard. Both make good antennas and preamps. There are a few other good brands but those are the two that come to mind first.

If you fail with CM or Winegard - get cable. Unfortunately reliable terrestrial HD can be difficult. I don't even bother in my apartment. Everything else about your setup is fine, your OS makes no difference if reception is bad. Garbage in, garbage out.

Re:

[bconway (63464)]

Can you cite which Federal law allows you to mount satellite dishes on property you don't own?

Re:Get satellite tv

[PvtVoid (1252388)]

Section 207 of the Federal Communications Law of 1996: http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/1998/fcc98273.pdf [fcc.gov] (PDF format). See Section 2 of the Introduction:

In practice, under the amendment to our rules, renters will be able, subject to the terms of our Section 207 rules, to install Section 207 devices wherever they rent space outside of a building, such as balconies, balcony railings, patios, yards, gardens or any similar areas.

Re:Get satellite tv

[Flying Scotsman (1255778)]

47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000.

Read more about it here [fcc.gov]. The rule applies to "video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas."

There are some restrictions. For example you aren't guaranteed the right to mount your dish/antenna on a common area such as a roof or a wall. However, balconies and patios are fair game. As another poster else-thread mentioned, if your unit faces north, you're pretty SOL as far as dishes go.

Re:

[bjschrock (557973)]

47 CFR 1.4000 [gpo.gov]

Re:

[onecheapgeek (964280)]

That applies only to placement, not mounting. A landlord is entirely within his rights to not allow tenants to go drilling holes for mounting brackets. Best would be a satellite pole mount with u bolts around the supports so there is no drilling.

Idea

[legoman666 (1098377)]

Put a cheap antenna on the roof for the time being and run a small/thin copper wire (or something not easily visible on the outside wall of your apartment) down the side of the building and through a window.

Or just get cable for a few months.

Re:Idea

[Lumpy (12016)]

That will not work. you MUST use RG6 or better (I suggest RG6 Quad Flooded for best HDTV antenna installs.)

running a thin copper wire will simply make him get crappy reception. you have to run the right stuff for the right job. and that's RG6...

Re:

[legoman666 (1098377)]

Are you sure you don't need MONSTER CABLES?

Re:Idea

[mpoulton (689851)]

Are you sure you don't need MONSTER CABLES?

Joking aside, Lumpy is right. The connection between the antenna and the tuner is not a "wire", it is a "transmission line" -- an impedance controlled duct for RF energy. That's not BS, that's physics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line [wikipedia.org]

The quality of transmission line used has a huge impact on received signal strength and signal:noise ratio if the cable run is long. RG6 quad-shield is sort of the standard for high-quality TV coax. RG59 is the other commonly available option, and is not really suitable for long antenna feedlines because of the high loss and poor shielding.

Now Monster does produce some coax products, and apparently the real physics and engineering of RF transmission lines isn't "cool" enough for their marketing department, so they decided to spout a bunch of random buzzwords instead to ensure that they avoid any hint of legitimacy in their advertising.

You may not be able....

[jeiler (1106393)]

...to mount an external antenna, but you may be able to mount one inside a window. The glass should be more radio-transparent than the walls.

I strongly recommend the HDTv Antenna Labs [hdtvantennalabs.com] website: especially the HDTv Antenna Reviews [hdtvantennalabs.com].

No external antennas? Sue!

[by Anonymous Coward]

The FCC allows for mounting of external attennas, and your apartment complex is acting against the law by not allowing them. On the other hand, even mounting outside on the first floor won't help much.

Re:No external antennas? Sue!

[Critical Facilities (850111)]

The FCC can not tell a property owner he or she must allow an antenna

I don't think that's true. This seems pretty clear [fcc.gov].

Re:

[onecheapgeek (964280)]

I was referring to roof-mounted antennae (as did most everyone else - sorry if I was unclear), so no he cannot be prevented from putting one on his balcony. But he can be prevented from mounting it to the wall or drilling any holes in the balcony proper in order to mount it.

Someone find him a tripod or clamped antenna mount and it'll be all good. Or he could find a low profile type of omni antenna and work with his landlord to get it put up and wired properly. Most property owners are extremely receptive

Re:

[Limecron (206141)]

You're right, it was Congress, not the FCC, who passed the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which by law allows a renter to install an antenna (satellite or terrestrial) in an outdoor area which they have exclusive use of.

http://www.myrateplan.com/sat/condos.php [myrateplan.com]

Re:

[Muad'Dave (255648)]

The FCC can not tell a property owner he or she must allow an antenna.

The tiniest amount of googling shows that your statement is demostrably false. This FCC document [fcc.gov] clearly states:

The rule prohibits restrictions that impair a person's ability to install, maintain, or use an antenna covered by the rule. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restri

Re:

[NeoSkandranon (515696)]

Except:
"The rule does not apply to common areas that are owned by a landlord, a community association, or jointly by condominium or cooperative owners where the antenna user does not have an exclusive use area. Such common areas may include the roof or exterior wall of a multiple dwelling unit. Therefore, restrictions on antennas installed in or on such common areas are enforceable."

So, yes, his landlord CAN tell him he can't mount an *external* antenna.

Another antenna with good results (for me) ...

[HP-UX'er (211124)]

... is the WINEGARD SS-2000 16" Square Shooter HDTV Antenna [newegg.com]. It looks a lot better, and comes with its own mounting equipment. Can also be mounted on existing satellite antennas.

Re:

[Andy Dodd (701)]

While Winegard is a pretty good brand, that looks like a crappy antenna. I'd suggest something from the Channel Master 422x series (or Winegard's equivalent), unless some of those HD channels are VHF, in which case it gets MUCH harder to find a compact high gain antenna.

Ooops...

[Andy Dodd (701)]

That DB-8 antenna he has is pretty similar to the Channel Master 4228, which is one of the highest gain UHF antennas you can find.

The guy that submitted this needs to:
1) Move that antenna to the porch!
2) Try a mast-mount preamp (warning, if one of those stations is nearby and very strong this can make things worse.)
3) Get cable

A movie library

[by Anonymous Coward]

The best movies are not playing on TV in general anyway.

Get fast internet and have a selection of streaming movies and tv shows from the internet.

HD is only all that great for movies that can actually use all that extra detail such as documentaries and such. I wouldn't focus on HD as much compared to selection for overall entertainment value.

Sounds like your best option is to bribe the landlord to get something better setup. For most people that's cable or FIOS but I guess you can't get them ??

A media library of movies and TV shows might be your most practical method. Hard drive capacity has gotten so huge and cheap it's not hard to have an endless supply of new content ready to go and easily searchable.

A netflix account might help, but in general you want to target the viewing audience, that is get stuff people in the house tend to like.

TV is only so rewarding for anything beyond lots of stream of mediocre programming. That's why god made movie channels and DVD's :P

NetFlix

[BitterOldGUy (1330491)]

Netflix has a $99 box (one time)+ monthly fee [netflix.com] that will allow you to get on demand movies from them. They have other plans coming that will work on other devices - I can't find the link for that one.

Or, get an unlimited borrowing plan and take out a bunch of movies at a time.

This Works For Me

[shotfire (1190219)]

I made a modified version of this with some wire, cardboard, and tin foil. Works great. I have a house and this is used on the first floor, mounted right beside a window:
http://members.shaw.ca/hdtvantenna/ [members.shaw.ca]

I am in the process of making this, but the first one works so well, I've kind of put it off...(at least until after the Olympics):
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/762088/coat_hanger_hdtv_antenna_better_than_store_bought_amazing/ [metacafe.com]

The key is that they are directional, to be fair, I do have to turn it around a l

You could just get...

[Ngarrang (1023425)]

...an actual TV to plug the antenna into. A nice little HDTV LCD with built-in and stronger tuner. For the one week I was without my precious DirecTV, I went to Wal-Mart and paid $30 for a simple powered antenna. It looked like a pair of rabbit ears, but it with an AC adapter and a knob for adjusting the gain. I plugged it into my Vizio, set to OTA and pressed auto-find.

I live in between Cinci and Dayton, and I was able to pull in ALL of those stations, plus the HD channels. In all, I had nearly 30 cha

amplified antenna

[greenrom (576281)]

If you can find one, try to get an antenna with part number 15-1880 from Radio Shack. They've been discontinued, but your local store might still have one in stock or you might be able to find one on ebay. It's a simple indoor amplified UHF antenna and passive VHF antenna. I used it in an apartment surrounded by trees about 45 miles away from the towers and was able to get all the HD channels except CBS. CBS used VHF, that's why I couldn't get it. People on AVS forum rave about the antenna, and they were right.

Re:amplified antenna

[elrous0 (869638)]

Why does Radio Shack always seem to discontinue everything they have that ISN'T complete crap? I was looking for a omnidirectional mic the other day there only to find they had discontinued their best model.

It's like they're DETERMINED to suck.

Build GPL Gray-Hoverman antenna

[SEWilco (27983)]

Build the Gray-Hoverman antenna [slashdot.org] which we discussed recently. It's a grid plane with a few bent wires in front.

Re:

[drewzhrodague (606182)]

Seconded. Looks like a wire-mesh nightmade form Naked Lunch, but works quite well if you build it right. There are some other variants that may be more tolerant to it not being precise. Treat it as a sculpture.

Fine w/ Terk tv2 indoor antenna / ATSC tuner diff?

[aapold (753705)]

I have a Hauppage HVR-1600.. and used it to receive OTA HD signals just fine with an old (not specifically HD or ATSC) antenna, a Terk TV-2 [hdtvantennalabs.com]. However, I recently switched to a monitor that had a tuner (samsung 260HD). It doesn't have PIP, so I figured I'd still commonly use the HVR-1600 to have my OTA signals in a window when I was doing other things and toggle to fullscreen when I wanted to. However, I noticed the image quality I get when feeding the antenna directly to the samsung's tuner is far supe

Concerning his antenna issue

[Shivetya (243324)]

for those of us with satellite and the ability to have a dish, can it also be used for OTA HD? Or if we replace Sat service can we use it OTA HD and receive that through their cable which is no longer needed for sat?

I am trying to avoid a new cable incoming to the house and figured on grafting theirs

Hulu + Netflix + Basic Cable

[Brit_in_the_USA (936704)]

A combination of Netflix , Basic cable and Hulu keep me very happy. Hulu(.com) has some of my favorite shows within a day of going out on air (Daily show etc.), netflix has instant streaming of old movies, and latest movies by DVD, basic cable has all the major networks. Cable modem Internet + basic Cable analogue channels should be $30 a month if you stand your ground with the cable company - they desperatly want to give you basic cable if you sign up with internet in my area.

QAM Cable

[arcmay (253138)]

Most cable companies offer a dirt-cheap package containing only local broadcast channels. These channels are required by law to be sent unencrypted. I pay Comcast $8/month and get all the major broadcast networks in HD, plus a few random cable channels like History and BET. Even better: Comcast gives me a $10 discount on ANY TV/internet package, so I actually save $2/month by getting the limited TV package.

Any TV tuner card that accepts "Clear QAM" will be able to tune unencrypted cable signals.

Winegard MS-2002

[Fieryphoenix (1161565)]

This is an amazing omnidirectional antenna that is small enough to fit in many closets if needed. The 2000 is the same antenna but with 50' of coax, which you would not need if you installed it inside.

http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/1073325.html

Watch out for digital channels moving to VHF band

[dpbsmith (263124)]

I haven't been able to get a completely straight answer to this, but... I believe the following three facts to be true:

a) Most "HDTV" antennas sold today are UHF-only.

b) All digital TV being broadcast today is being broadcast on UHF.

c) Come February 2009, when analog stations stop broadcasting on VHF, SOME stations that are currently broadcasting a digital signal in the UHF band will CHANGE THEIR FREQUENCY ALLOCATION TO VHF.

According to AntennaWeb, one example of this is WHDH-TV, "Channel 7", the Boston NBC affiliate and a major, popular station.

So, if I'm correct, some people who think they're up and running and all ready for February will be very surprised to see some DIGITAL stations they're CURRENTLY receiving go black in 2009, when the station shifts to a frequency their antenna isn't built for.

if I'm correct, this is going to be a major headache for the few who have bothered to prepare for digital, and one for which there is no publicity at all.

The reason I keep saying if I'm correct is that the salesman at You-Do-It, a great Boston-area electronics store that has a huge selection of antennas and antenna-related paraphernalia says I'm wrong, wrong, wrong. I hope he's right and I'm wrong.

Works out of the box Mythbuntu HDTVpc

[shuz (706678)]

You can do this pretty cheap if you need to. Here is my setup. ATX computer case and power supply - I have a spendy lian li but that only gets you style points and little functionality gain over any other case. Gforce 7600gs - This is a relatively cheap card that will be able to decode 1080p hd content if you need it to. AMD X2 3800+ - Two cores is nice here so that you can run more than one cpu intensive process without getting choppiness while watching TV. I have 4GB of memory in the machine. I would recommend at least 2GB because optimally you want any HD content to be well buffered into memory. Swapping to disk will destroy your experience. A motherboard that does what you need it to do. You can get the cheapest motherboard possible and it should meet your needs. AV-710 sound card. This card will cost around 20 US dollars and it sounds just as good as an expensive creative card. It has 7.1 analog jacks and an SPDIF Optical out (if you have a receiver). HD-5500 HD tuner card - works out of the box. The only negative to this card is that the IR receiver that comes with it is somewhat of a hack to get working. I have it working if anyone has questions about that. 80GB hard drive or larger to allow for those really large HD tv feeds. A 1hr program takes up about 7GB space. mice, keyboards, displays are all things that don't really matter in the scheme of things. Mythbuntu linux works out of the box for me. I consider myself a Unix expert but I would trust my father to be able to install Mythbuntu, and all he knows how to do on a computer is turn it on and get to Solitaire. :-) Finally HE/C ACC TERK | HDTVS HDTV ANTENNA is the antenna I use. Parts list: HE/C ACC TERK | HDTVS HDTV ANTENNA $89.99 DVD_BURN NEC|7170A-01 $31.99 SND CARD CHAINTECH|CT-AV710 7.1 $21.99 Gigabyte 7600GS $85.07 CPU AMD|A64 X2 3800+ 65W AM2 $66.75 ABIT AN52 NFORCE520 AM2 $69.99 MEM 1Gx4|CORSAIR $129.98 PSU KINGWIN|ABT-350MM 350W $23.99 80GB Sata 2 hard drive ~$45 Mythbuntu http://mythbuntu.org/ [mythbuntu.org] $(cost of internet service+time involved with downloading it) These prices are pretty old. I'd guess that the same computer today could be put together for a few hundred less.

Re:I like your style, young man

[AlterRNow (1215236)]

"hardware/GPU acceleration on Linux is very, very limited"

As opposed to being a system requirement for the command line on Vista?

:)

Re:I like your style, young man

[jellomizer (103300)]

what does Vista crappy command line interface have to do about TV. It is really about the right tool for the right job. And sometimes GASP! Linux isn't the right tool for the job. It is not that it can't do the job adequately (TiVo has proven that (However TiVo took advantages of Linux's strength to be a good appliance OS (Yes I have programmed in LISP))) but it is not really the right tool for the job, Espectailly if you just want to get it up quickly and running right, with little effort. Normally if you get new hardware they tend to have drivers for Windows, Linux is hit or miss. While I am a Mac Fan myself it isn't always the best solution for these type of things as there is chance the OS will not support it like Linux and the fact that you kinda need to choose from Apple brand hardware which has gaps in its offering making it difficult to get the right computer for your needs. For this case Vista is probably the best choice.

Re:

[gEvil (beta) (945888)]

However, I will make a small rebuttal. Vista is not always the right tool for the job. OS X is not always the right tool for the job. Linux is not always the right tool for the job.. but it is flexible enough to be.

Ummm, that's not a rebuttal. You're simply restating his point.

Re:

[AlterRNow (1215236)]

Gah, ignore that. I just realised what you meant and you're right, it isn't a rebuttal.

Re:

[GigaplexNZ (1233886)]

I was merely making a joke about the above-acceptable hardware requirements to run Vista.

You play with fire, you are bound to get burnt.

Re:

[tji (74570)]

Linux Hardware Accell:

XvMC - Linux equivalent of DxVA, MPEG2 offload to GPU. Works for some, but is troublesome for many. Setup, smooth output, and reliability are questions. Supported by NVidia. Intel has always had minimal support (MC offload) but recently has been working on a full XvMC implementation (which I haven't used yet, so can't comment on the quality).

VAAPI - Intel led project to produce a better video acceleration API. Addresses MPEG4/H.264 as well as MPEG2, and allows for more flexibilit

Re:

[dave420 (699308)]

Telling the truth != bashing. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's bashing. He has a point.