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Is the US Ready For the Switch To DTV?
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sun Sep 07, 2008 07:24 AM
from the if-so,-can-the-commercials-stop? dept.
from the if-so,-can-the-commercials-stop? dept.
tonsofpcs writes "On Monday, September 8, Wilmington, NC will be the first television market (#135) to make the switch to DTV by shutting off their analog transmitters. This forum will be posting updates throughout the coming months to keep everyone updated on how the transition works so that we are all prepared come February 17, 2009. So far, it seems Wilmington will still be going ahead as planned, despite Tropical Storm Hanna's proximity."
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I have a feeling (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I have a feeling (Score:5, Interesting)
Over-the-air DTV works terribly. First off, with analog, I could point my antenna in just about any direction and get SOME kind of fuzzy picture that was watchable. In other words, analog was easier to tune in,
With digital the tuning is much more difficult. I have to align the antenna perfectly along the 55th meridian, check the stars, adjust the horizontal azimuth, and get down on my knees and pray the signal is strong enough to not freeze the video (extremely annoying). And if there's a Tropical Storm blowing by? Forget it. The rain attenuates and destroys the signal. Yesterday I was unable to get my normal programming due to Hanna's presence... just a bunch of pixelated images instead of clear video.
DTV also provides fewer stations than analog.
In the Lancaster PA region analog reception provides these stations: 2,3,6,8,10,11,12,13,15,17,21,27,29,33,35,43,45,48,49,51,57,61,65,69 from various sources like my hometown, Baltimore, and Philadelphia. Switching over to my DTV tuner trims that number down to just a few: 8, 15, 43, 49, 57, 61. Twenty-four downto just six.
Pathetic.
The FCC's discontinuation of analog in favor of digital broadcasting is yet another government-sponsored frakup. Good thing I've learned how to stream TV shows off the net. Thanks to DTV, I no longer can watch ABC or CBS stations. Channels 21 and 27 have disappeared off my DTV dial! What a brilliant job Mr. FCC Engineer. I now have LESS choices to watch, not more. /steps off soapbox
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Re:I have a feeling (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure about the US but as I understand it in the UK many digital transmissions are currently transmitted at reduced power to avoid screwing with analogue reception. Once analogue is switched off digital reception should get a lot better.
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Re:I have a feeling (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:I have a feeling (Score:4, Informative)
Absolutely correct. This has been sold to broadcasters as a way to save money while transmitting the same content. They can cut power, theoretically, save a ton of money and still get the same advertising revenue.
Unfortunately, as the previous posting observed, the public will pay the price in quality and quantity of stations available to their antenna.
Parent
Re:I have a feeling (Score:4, Interesting)
Wrong. Power for NTSC transmissions are measured as peak power. The sync pulses are at the peak, and the average power is much, much lower.
ATSC transmission power levels are measured as average power, which due to the digital nature of the signal is much, much closer to the peak power level anyway.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This was a problem in Iceland, when they did first start broadcasting in digital. The idiots at 365 Media (that runs most of the private tv stations in Iceland) did turn the digital transmission to 100% when it first started. The end result was that the digital signal did create snow and other issues with the remaining analog signals on 2500Mhz band that they are using and also normal uhf analog broadcasts.
In the end they did drop the signal strength down enough so it did not create issues with the analog
Re:I have a feeling (Score:4, Informative)
According to the FCC, 99% of stations are already at their full digital power limits. Only a few will be increasing their power in March 2009.
One major change is that most stations will be moving from UHF to VHF, and VHF is less prone to breakup. For example my local WGAL is moving from 58 to 8, which should stabilize the image.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah. Seriously. I live 40 miles from New York City, and can barely get the four major broadcast networks (Back when it was around, UPN used to come in fine, which was a sort of cruel irony)
I just got back from spending a few months just outside of Dundee in Scotland (read: middle of nowhere, especially by American standards). We could pick up a couple dozen OTA channels, with considerably better quality than I get with digital cable. It just works.
The US digital adoption is clearly being manipulated by
Re:I have a feeling (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Idiot much?
Re:I have a feeling (Score:4, Informative)
DTV also provides fewer stations than analog.
Get a different tuner/antenna.
My experience was quite the opposite. Using my original crappy bunny ears, I was able to receive around 5 channels in analog. Switching to digital brought these fuzzy/static channels to full 1080i. Add in a mid-sized powered antenna, pointed the right way and that number goes up to 32 (counting the spanish and shopping channels).
From the suburbs west of Boston I get: Boston, Providence and Manchester. All in far better quality than analog could have possibly provided.
If you want to blame the FCC for something, blame them for selecting ATSC. Why on earth they chose MPEG2 when everyone else gets MPEG4 or H.264 is anyone's guess (greed from patent holders maybe?).
Parent
Re:I have a feeling (Score:4, Interesting)
If you want to blame the FCC for something, blame them for selecting ATSC. Why on earth they chose MPEG2 when everyone else gets MPEG4 or H.264 is anyone's guess
Who's "everyone else"? Other countries? The current UK digital terrestrial TV system, DVB-T, uses MPEG2.
Though I should make clear that DVB-T is only used for standard res transmissions (*) and has been in proper use here since the late 1990s, so it at least has a good excuse for being based on 1990s tech(!). Even though we're only just *now* starting to switch off analogue in favour of this already dated system!
Also, unlike the US where (AFAIK) you're going straight to a single terrestrial digital standard that supports hi-res transmissions which can still be shown by standard-res boxes (albeit at reduced resolution), the UK/European DVB-T boxes won't handle hi-res. So we're getting another new standard for that which probably *will* use the more modern and efficient H.264.
And to be honest, I'd have thought MPEG-2 would be horribly bandwidth-hungry for hi-def and a pointless choice given that more advanced codecs are now available and the existing boxes wouldn't support it either way (even if the original MPEG-2 DVB-T standard would have).
Anyway, are your FCC/ATSC *really* using MPEG-2 for hi-def? If that's true, it makes no sense at all.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, are your FCC/ATSC *really* using MPEG-2 for hi-def? If that's true, it makes no sense at all.
When the US DTV transition was planned, there was no H.264...
The truth is that a $20,000 broadcast HD MPEG-2 encoder does a pretty good job at 18 Mbps. Real-time H.264 HD encoders that could do the same thing have only been in serious commercial production for a year (I've seen them try and fail for years, but now we seem to have enough CPU to make them operate stable and well).
It is my impression that most
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Although referring to the UK (and explaining why your system isn't as good) you've just described the US DTV switchover precisely...
Digital transmissions (in highdef, no less) in the US have been goin
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I don't understand. What's not "practical" about VP7?
I have yet to ever find ANYONE here on /. with whom I can have a rational discussion about codec internals.
Never the less, the last line of my reply is "See the other reply to my earlier comment for details." which you appa
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
VP7 is a very good codec (and has been around for a while now), but gets completely ignored, because it's proprietary. Not that On2 wouldn't be happy to do the RAND thing, as well as hand out the source code of VP7 to any company out there willing to pay a small amount of money for it... After all, VP3.2 is open source (Theora) and VP6 is part of Flash v8. And in the past they've often committ
UK is *very* different (Score:5, Informative)
My experience with digital TV in the UK is going from analogue at 4.5 channels (5 was not available in about half the places I went) to digital with far too many to count. The signal strength, picture and sound quality went through the roof with the transition too. Plus, no messing around with tuning at all, it just pulls channels, names and schedules out of the ether.
If your experience is typical, the FCC has managed a frak-up of truly epic proportions.
Of course, with all the new channels there's still nothing on worth watching, but that's a problem with the culture, not the technology.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's largely my experience. I don't get so many channels that I can't count with digital,but I definitely get all the broadcast channels I was plus a few others which weren't close enough to be visible.
And all of those are in better quality than what they were when I had comcast delivering the video. Not quite a good as DirecTV, but quite a bit better than either comcast or the older over the air programming.
I don't think that when I was growing up my parents would have gotten cable if we could have gotte
Re:UK is *very* different (Score:5, Informative)
I know exactly what we're talking about; terrestrial Digital Video Broadcasting(DVB) through the air. The stuff you breathe, with antennae and no cables or dishes.
The only tuning you have to do is press autotune and the rest just happens. I've never had to fiddle around with the antenna on digital TV. Same with Digital Audio Broadcasting(DAB), though I have more signal problems with that.
I love the fact that a self-confirmed resident of Pennsylvania, USA has the audacity to tell me how my TV works from the other side of the Atlantic. You may have seen pictures of the boxes; I've owned and used one. This is why I think the FCC has conducted such an epic fail, if what you've said is accurate.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I know one person in the UK who can't get DVB-T, even if she replaced her antennae. She lives in a valley in a remote part of Devon. She's been told she will get DVB-T when the analog signal is turned off and the digital signal power increased.
Do most houses in the US have antennaes on the roof? (Most in the UK do). That might be causing confusion.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Never! That's a sure way to get the TV Licence people to your door.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Eh? We don't HAVE TV licenses in the US. And in most places, when Cable TV first came through the cable companies made sure to see if you wanted to get rid of that "unsightly" antenna up on the roof. For reasons that I'm certain had nothing whatsoever to do with preventing people from dropping Cable TV somewhere down the line and reconnecting the rooftop antenna.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I can't remember the last time I saw rabbit-ear aerials here and I'm a student.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously YMMV, but generally and for most people, DTV provides better quality reception and more channels. Of course it depends on the transmitter you're tuned to, and antenna you're receiving with and there can be difficulties particularly when switching the broadcast systems like now. But this happened all the time with analog aswell, with channels going lost and having to re-tune your TV.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I realize you weren't asking for advice, but the Samsung H260F just might dramatically improve your viewing experience.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Something tells me that after several delays and numerous announcements that the people that are unaware of the switch to digital TV probably wouldn't be too upset about missing out on TV for a few days while they track down an analog->digital converter.
Greetings, visitor - you picked a windy day to visit our strange planet.
Seriously, some people will start screaming when the glass nipple is wrenched from their lips, and "didn't you see all the announcements?" just ain't gonna cut it.
The UK is just embarking on the same experiment and its pretty clear that a lot of people (a) rank this as equivalent to having their water or electricity cut off, (b) are "confused" by the announcements and expect the man from the gubment to turn up and fix it for them and
Are prisons ready for the switch? (Score:3, Interesting)
A simple rig. (Score:3, Insightful)
Any Slashdotter could do this
1. Get Digital receivers to decode only the channels you want them to watch.
2. Hook up the outputs to some UHF modulators.
3. Output the signals to your existing Television cabels.
4. Re-tune the TV's
Could be done for a few hundred dollars at most.
Will they broadcast a notice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems that would be better than just turning it off. Maybe just run it for a week or so.
Re:Will they broadcast a notice? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't speak for other markets, but here in Portland at least one station recently ran a prime time demonstration. They said "Right now we are going to turn off the analog transmitter for 60 seconds. You will know if you are affected if your picture goes away."
That's pretty smart IMO, and they should start doing that more often, perhaps every evening as we get closer to the switch, maybe even several times a day.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I can't speak for other markets, but here in Portland at least one station recently ran a prime time demonstration. They said "Right now we are going to turn off the analog transmitter for 60 seconds. You will know if you are affected if your picture goes away."
That'd be an awesome pre-recorded commercial. Have william Shatner talking about episodes of Star Trek back in the 60's when talk about how we're stepping into the next generation, with Patrick Stewart stepping out from the side, speaking of the new
Prisons not ready (Score:5, Interesting)
Numerous stories [google.com] mention that prisons are not ready for digital television, and prison administrators are worried.
Generally, inmates pay for their own television sets and (for some reason that escapes me) are not eligible for the $40 coupons.
Prison administrators say [tennessean.com]"the tube does more than fill year after year of idle hours. It provides a sense of normalcy and is a bargaining chip that encourages good behavior... At Indiana's Wabash Valley super-maximum security prison [a psychiatrist said], far fewer behavior problems were reported among inmates in isolation after they were given small TVs. 'You don't want to be managing prisoners who have nothing to lose,' Kupers."
I expect the test will show that, in fact, prison inmates represent only one example of what will prove to be a large population of forgotten Americans... the people who don't answer telephone surveys because they don't have telephones, the people who don't shop at Best Buy because they don't have cars and the nearest Best Buy can't be reached by public transportation, etc.
I will grant that the amount of publicity being given to the DTV switchover on our local TV stations is so large... at least during the times of day we watch and on the channels we watch... that it's hard to imagine people not knowing about it, but there is always that twenty percent of the population who can't name the President.
Indeed, I'm astonished at the poster who asks "Will they broadcast a notice?" since our local stations have been doing that continuously since February. Either his are not or he, like those twenty per cent I'm talking about, didn't notice.
recession (Score:4, Insightful)
Disaster Radios (Score:3, Insightful)
Some commentary on my switch... (Score:5, Informative)
I live in a valley...
next to an HD-only transmitter.
Needless to say, analog *anything* has been an issue. Last spring, sensing there may a be rush later, I got our two coupons from Uncle Sam, and cashed 'em in. A few points on my experience:
o Direction and gain are definitely more of an issue. Since we barely got anything analog clearly on bunny ear/loop, we got next to nothing with digital.
o With digital, it's all or nothing. Either you have clear signal, maybe with some artifacts, or you have black screen.
o *The* most annoying thing is that sounds cuts first.
o So, I did what any self-respecting tinkerer would do. I build a grey-hoverman antenna out of foam board, packing tape, tin foil, and picture hanging wire - all from from Walgreens (U.S. pharmacy) :-D. http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/ [digitalhome.ca]
o Obviously, with such rarefied materials I have a less-than-precise design - that works... really well.
o The GH antenna is highly directional. Since digital is crystal-clear, we put up with adjusting the thing in the bay window.
o We get 9-12 clear channels now, instead of 4-5 distorted ones.
o It's best to put it in an attic, or outside. Be sure to ground it, etc. The higher, the better - generally.
o Note that there are two ranges for VHF DTV, high channels and low channels. The Grey-Hoverman seems to do well with UHF DTV and high VHF. Most DTV seems to be UHF.
o Only some DTV is HD. Stations were given sub-channels. Some use only the main channel and switch back and forth between HD. Others put SD on one and HD on the other. Others use all for HD, with different content. The public television stations, strangely enough, seem to be making the best use of the sub-channels.
o The other prominent build-able design is called a Yagi. It consists of connected bow-ties, rather than zig-zag elements. The Yagi design is nice, because its gain is roughly even across UHF. The Grey-Hoverman seems to have better gain than the Yagi on some ranges, but cuts out in others. Check the frequencies of your local stations and compare them to the two antennas' gain charts before deciding.
o Why the range of channels for me? Well, in a valley the signal has echoes. Some echoes are stronger than others. Sometimes the amp makes the two echoes the same strength. In that case the converter box cannot lock in. Thus, if your location is subject to echoes (hills, valley, etc.), design your wiring to allow the easy removal of your amplifier.
o Also, atmospheric conditions seem to have an effect. On clear dry days we don't do so well; on wet or humid days, I think we could get New York City, if we wanted (we're in southern N.E.).
o Finally, going digital with a converter has one interesting benefit for you OSS fans. Since the Neuros OSD is still SD, converted DTV works nicely with it. I don't have one yet, but they are now on Amazon, and I am strongly considering getting one.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's actually a "Yagi/Corner-Reflector".
"Bowtie" refers to a specific type of antenna, a "multi-bay" unit... an antenna that is most definitely NOT a yagi. In fact a multi-bay bowtie antenna resembles a Grey-Hovermann much more than a Yagi/Corner-Reflector.
Yagi/Corner-Reflector: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=MXU59 [solidsignal.com]
Multi-bay/Bowtie: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display [solidsignal.com]
Govt/Retailers only making half-hearted effort (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well goody for you; I'm so happy you can afford multiple TVs (one for each eye?). However, not everyone is in your income bracket. Many are struggling just to keep their homes, and the rising price of gas has made things even tougher (I assume with all those TVs, you must have watched the news at some point).
For over a year now I have been predicting riots in the streets when the people living in our ghettos are suddenly thrust into a situation where they have no more bread and circuses. Without their stead
Minimal effect (Score:3, Insightful)
It doesn't really affect me because I haven't watched TV on a regular basis for a couple of decades. If there is a show I want to watch, I wait for it to come out in DVD. If I want current news, I check the web or read a newspaper. If there is an emergency that requires extremely current information, I listen to the radio.
I do pity those people who rely upon broadcast TV for their entertainment and/or information. But that IS a life style choice that they make and this change has been talked about for quite a few years not.
They'll adjust. I do suspect that there will be a lot of calls to the local TV stations from people that never listen to public service ads warning of the changes. (I wonder how many of these calls will be from channel flippers that never listen to commercials or public service ads?)
Re:Despite Tropical Storm Hanna? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is going to happen in February, why on earth should a tropical storm delay it if it's still September? For that matter, why would it be delayed at all? Is there something mystical and magical about tropical storms that we don't know here?
The use of TV as a warning mechanism for evacuations / seeking shelter. If you turn that off fro those still on analog you've added to the complexity of an evacuation.
Parent
Re:Despite Tropical Storm Hanna? (Score:4, Interesting)
Well for one, it would be nice to see those red boxes when the weather man goes "there is a tornado warning for the communities within blah blah blah..."
EBS isn't worth a shit. All it does is replay a canned warning message with the counties under the warning, and at the end of the message it says tune to your local channels for more information...
What irritates me about the switch (which I still see as completely without merit - unless you are a telecommunications company or a DTV manufacturer), is the fact that they keep saying "If you have cable or satellite, you need not to worry about the conversion. Only people who uses traditional off-the-air television have to make the switch". Even worse is when your local cable company advertises that to avoid the switch just get cable...
Problem being that when the cable goes out (and it does during a hurricane) you are screwed and must resort to listening to the weatherman on the radio who continues to say "if you look in this area of the screen..."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Even if EBS is still transmitting an analog signal (will it?) many people will probably have their TV off since tehy aren't getting programming and not get a warning at all.
EAS will still be analog as most stations receive it from radio stations. EAS is relayed by the TV station though, which will not be broadcasting analog, so there will be no way to receive it on an analog set (unless a local LPTV station is still operating in analog, as they are exempt from the changeover for now).
As fro radio, it'd be nice if everyone had a working radio and maybe even a weather alert radio; but they are a less effective means of providing updates and warnings since they have to stop broadcasting to send updates; unlike a continuous scroll.
EAS requires an audio interruption of programming, both on TV and radio. Crawls without audio do not meet EAS requirements. Some stations will continue crawls of information that is not requi
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Re: (Score:2)
I think someone was trying to be witty in a headline. It does appear to rank pretty high in the FAIL department.
Re:I've had cable for almost 30 years (Score:5, Funny)
Phew, on behalf of all Slashdot readers who were fraught with worry over how this would effect you, thanks for letting us know we can sleep easy.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I just tell people:
"If you have cable, dish, or FiOS television, then you need not worry about the over-the-air transition. It does not affect you."
Re:Short Answer (Score:4, Insightful)
It is not called trolling; it is called elitism. ... and it is wrong. Your "demographic" probably leaves out the majority of those affected, those who shop at Walmart and purchased Chinese-made NTSC sets. Walmart got slapped a few times in the recent past for selling non-DTV capable sets - we're talking months ago.
See? It's possible to introduce a demographic you're not a part of, without a snide twist of the knife. All seriousness aside, there's plenty of bad stereotypes that could be made with the Walmart crowd (meth and prescription addiction anyone?). (I suppose even acknowledging the possibility of this counter stereotype is the same as saying it, but I'm trying to draw a distinction).
Good luck with your views
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I call "bullshit" on that.
The spectrum "giveaway" you speak of was actually an unfunded mandate. The broadcasters were forced to operate dual, redundant facilities for a few years and on 2/17, the "extra" spectrum is going to be summarily taken away from them.
In the meantime, the top 100 MHz of the UHF TV spectrum is being removed from TV service was auctioned off to the wireless industry for billions and billions of dollars.
How, exactly, did Hollywood benefit from that?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
TV is done. It's going to die faster than radio, because I can listen to radio in my car.
You haven't got the faintest clue, have you? The majority of the population (in the US or in the UK where I live) still come home from work and slump in front of the TV. They don't want to choose a DVD or find something on youtube, they just want to flick through a few channels and settle on something comfortable and familiar while they wind down. Maybe later they'll do something else.
Yes, TV isn't as important and cent