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Citizens Demand To See Secret ACTA Treaty
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Sep 16, 2008 09:41 PM
from the show-me-the-words dept.
from the show-me-the-words dept.
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "One hundred groups of concerned citizens have united to demand a look at the secret ACTA (Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement) treaty and have drafted a letter to their representatives asking for information. We've discussed ACTA before, including what are believed to be parts of ACTA that lawmakers are trying to get a head start on."
Related Stories
[+]
Technology: Leaked ACTA Treaty to Outlaw P2P? 387 comments
miowpurr writes to tell us that a draft of the ACTA (Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement) has been posted on Wikileaks. Among others, Boing Boing's Cory Doctorow has weighed in on the possible ramifications of this treaty. "Among other things, ACTA will outlaw P2P (even when used to share works that are legally available, like my books), and crack down on things like region-free DVD players. All of this is taking place out of the public eye, presumably with the intention of presenting it as a fait accompli just as the ink is drying on the treaty."
[+]
Senate Judiciary Committee Approves Copyright Cops 483 comments
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "The Senate Judiciary Committee has approved the EIPA (the Enforcement of Intellectual Property Rights Act of 2008), which would create copyright cops. And these cops would take over the RIAA's War on Sharing by filing civil lawsuits and using civil forfeiture laws to take any and all computers engaged in infringement. Worse, they would even seize computers (such as servers or database farms) that house the data of innocent people, and these people would not have any right to get their data back. At best the 'virtual bystanders' who happened to have data on a computer used for infringement could get a protective order saying that no one should go rummaging through their stuff. Perhaps the only good thing in the bill is that they've excluded DMCA circumvention from the list of grounds for seizure. So while the Senators believe this is needed to combat foreign copyright infringement cartels, it's entirely likely that innocent people will be harmed by this law."
Submission: Citizens Demand to See Secret ACTA Treaty by Anonymous Coward
[+]
Your Rights Online: EFF, Public Knowledge Sue Over Secret IP Pact 104 comments
Cowards Anonymous writes "The Electronic Frontier Foundation and Public Knowledge have filed a lawsuit against the Office of the US Trade Representative in an attempt to get the office to turn over information about a secret Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement treaty being negotiated to step up cross-border enforcement of copyright and piracy laws. ACTA could include an agreement for the US, Canada, the European Commission and other nations to enforce each others' IP laws, with residents of each country subject to criminal charges when violating the IP laws of another country, according to a supposed ACTA discussion paper [PDF] posted on Wikileaks.org in May."
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Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
Brave New World, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Animal Farm, etc...
When I was in school (a while ago) these were books we had to read.
Seems most people 10, 15, or more years younger than myself haven't even heard of these stories.
Corporations are taking over the world. A well functioning democracy requires an educated populace.
Considering what public schools are turning out here in the US, so much of what happens in the world isn't surprising to me anymore.
I don't know what is more disturbing, the fact that so many people don't seem bothered by things like TFA, or that people aren't aware of them and/or don't understand them.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think people are apathetic about stuff like this because they don't see how it affects them, and because they aren't aware and/or understand them. I'm aware of them and barely have a working knowledge of them. All I understand is that these corporate oligarchies are trying to perpetuate old systems that are still making them a$$loads of money by screwing over the consumer.
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
What bothers me the most, and what I don't think most people understand / are aware of, is how international treaties can be signed, thus becoming laws which supersede the most supreme law of the country (constitution, charter, bill of rights etc.) all without public knowledge or involvement.
I think every single democratic country desperately needs to update their charters with clauses requiring that all international agreements be signed with public knowledge, consent and involvement and to clearly make available avenues for referendums so that the public can force their governments to withdraw if the majority of the population wishes (without replacing their government obviously).
Parent
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Informative)
I believe that the Supremes ruled some (many?) years past that treaties cannot be used as an end-run around the constitution.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
Of course, due ratification isn't really required, per se. The 1963 Vienna Treaty on Consular Relations provides quite specifically that a republic is b
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sorry, Mr. AC, but your interpretation of the constitution has no importance. All that matters is what the Supreme Court has to say [sweetliberty.org]
Parent
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Informative)
In the US, at least, that's correct. The federal Constitution is supreme, with federal law and treaties at an equal level (where they conflict, the most recent trumps). All of those are superior to state constitutions, which are superior to state laws.
People often misread the Constitutional language indicating that treaties are superior to state constitutions, which is where the confusion arises.
This having been said, treaties are often used as an end-run around Congress. First, they're developed by the executive branch, which otherwise cannot write federal law at such a high level, and can be much more secretive and less receptive to the will of the people than Congress. Second, only the Senate is involved in ratification, and they cannot amend treaties, so it's a pure yes or no vote. Third, the Senate can be pressured into ratifying, on the basis that the US has committed to its treaty partners, after a diplomatic process that may have taken years, and shouldn't let them down at such a late stage. And fourth, if the treaty is not self-executing, Congress as a whole is pressured into enacting enabling legislation, lest we not be in compliance with the treaty.
It isn't good, but we're stuck with this system and its flaws, barring either a Constitutional amendment that would give Congress more of a diplomatic role, or the Congress (particularly the Senate) developing a spine and looking to the public interest.
Parent
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:4, Insightful)
I demonstrate my point 1 one very simple exercise. Say the Pledge of Allegiance.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
On top of that, democracies are bad.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
- Benjamin Franklin
Also, nothing the government does can supersede the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is not a declaration of what the people are allowed. It is a list to remind the government of what they cannot prevent. We made the Government, and gave it privileges. It can NOT infringe on the rights we have for being sovereign individuals. In fact...
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson
/rant
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
- Benjamin Franklin
Of course, Franklin never actually said that. It's more likely from the late 20th century.
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Informative)
Yes it is. It's a democratic republic.
Actually it's a constitutional republic.
But nobody seem to bother with that old piece of paper these days.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Please don't read this as a troll I'm just trying to understand your perspective on the matter.
Essentially you and I can agree on a number of things although I would add Atlas Shrugged to that list, and I would say "People who do not think are taking over the world."
I'm curious as to h
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
When you say "Corporations are taking over the world", are you generalizing a bit, or do you really hate Capitalism
I'm not the OP, but hating what Capitalism has wrought is not the same as hating Capitalism, just as hating your wife's lasagna is not the same as hating your wife.
Corporations, and Capitalism, have a very critical role in our world, but ruling the world is not their role. Corporations exist primarily (some would say solely, but I think that's too simplistic) to serve the interests of their shareholders, or owners. If Corporations were to rule the world, essentially, we would be taking the rulership away from The People, where it belongs, and giving it to the wealthy few.
So, for me, I don't hate Capitalism, but I do most definitely hate many of the things Capitalists have done.
The world is not so black-and-white.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
When you say "Corporations are taking over the world", are you generalizing a bit, or do you really hate Capitalism, or do you have a better explanation for Corporations as the cause of the crap storm that is our future?
I'd really love to say that I'm generalizing a bit. I'm not an expert, and it'd be better if I'm dead wrong. The tired cliché is 'follow the money'. Corporations act legally as individuals but with only the obligation to increase shareholder value. I don't hate capitalism. Historicall
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No need to apologize, in this day and age you should be congratulated.
I agree with you basic assessment of Corporations in the fact that they are more or less headless entities. They are a collective which is treated as an individual. If I had my way there would be no such thing as publicly owned companies. But that's my simple summation of it, and I realize it wouldn't solve everything, but when you can hang
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Informative)
I'm also not the parent, but here are some good links that will explain what many people are concerned about:
Capitalism [wikipedia.org] which many people think is good.
Corporate Capitalism [wikipedia.org] which cause some people to be a bit worried.
Corporatocracy [wikipedia.org] which causes some people to be very worried.
Corporatism [wikipedia.org] which a very large number of people find extremely worrisome.
Fascism [wikipedia.org] which is considered to be a really, really bad idea by a very large number of people.
If you read through all of those links, ask yourself honestly where you feel that your country sits on the scale. The parent expresses concern. After reading these links, do you share their concern?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
A lot of (depressing) people have claimed that every civilization will devolve into some crappy hellhole, before people again will revolt and take back their rights for a short while. Though I'm not that glum, obviously those that have never had their rights threatened don't realize how valuable they are. Sure you learn about it in school but that's something that happen in places far, far away and not in the "civilized" world. My dad remembers WWII. I remember the Cold War. What do the youth of today remem
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem ultimately is that people in the West have become incredibly coddled. It's not that they trust governments more than they did in the past, it's just that they can't get out of their web browser, off the telephone to Aunt Mavis or turn off the TV long enough to give a shit about the nature of liberty and the need of vigilance. People may not always be happy to surrender personal responsibility to their governments, but they're too fucking lazy to realize that it's not themselves they're selling down the river, but rather their children and grandchildren, who will suffer the consequences much more severely than us.
Governments always have and always will tend towards tyranny. It is the nature of the species that we organize ourselves into dominance hierarchies, and that very fundamental encoded behavior is a powerful force. The Founding Fathers, along with many great minds of the Enlightenment, hoped to create societies and complimentary political systems that could overcome to some degree human nature, to create societies that could strive for freedom, justice and equality, where the least in society could at least dare to hope that they might be able to enjoy the liberties of the greatest.
But, sadly, America, like most of the West, is turning its back on the Enlightenment. We are rapidly becoming a civilization that will sell itself away bit by bit, giving away every hard-earned freedom for the promise of security (which, as even the most tyrannical regimes in history demonstrate, can never really be bought). So many believe the lies of the corporate-government oligarchies, not because the lies are believable, but because believing the lies is so much easier than the alternative, which involves using democracy to punish the liars.
And now look. Wall Street is melting down, and the liars are begging for aid from the catastrophe they caused. Where are the citizens, commanding their political servants, flexing their muscle, making the mighty tremble in their cracking ivory towers? No, much easier to let our betters do what's right, even though letting our betters do what's right has thus far lead to one of the most severe (if not the most severe) financial crises since 1929.
But that's alright, because a new television season is here, and the Feds will throw lots of money around, and it's Tuesday and I'm tired after picking the kids up from soccer practice, and I've got to get to work early tomorrow, and what can one vote do, and voting for a third party is throwing my vote way, and... and... and... and...
Parent
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:4, Insightful)
Brave New World, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Animal Farm, etc...
When I was in school (a while ago) these were books we had to read.
Seems most people 10, 15, or more years younger than myself haven't even heard of these stories.
Nope, but they've watched V for Vendetta, the Matrix... and maybe Gattaca.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Corporations took over the world.
There, fixed it for ya.
Re: (Score:2)
Ah, so that explains prevalence of the irrational fear of authority!
Schools forcing students to read a line up like that? That's not teaching free thought, that's institutionalising paranoia.
(A reminder to mods: discussions usually require two points of view. Otherwise no-one actually gets to learn anything.)
Re:Brave New World, 1984 (Score:5, Interesting)
Um... Most schools I'm aware of still teach at least one of the ones you listed, and most 2. The others usually show up on a list of books for something like a book report as homework across a break. The problem is far from a lack of education. It's a mix of stupid 'journalism' and apathy.
Just look at this year. You can't turn on the damn TV or open a newspaper or magazine, etc. without hearing about the presidential race. Every four years it's always the same old "get out the vote" BS, and the other three (and their primaries) are barely even reported, let alone discussed. People (that aren't totally out of it) know that congress passes the laws, and the laws are what actually affect you, but they just never seem to realize that means their congressmen matter, even more than the president. Sure, if, say, Jesus were to show up and appoint someone to the presidency who knew what the hell was going on and actually cared about the people and their rights, then the veto power could be used for some good, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
The other problem is that people don't understand that the law isn't "The Law". They never realize that it's not some ancient black tome with gold letters that's been the sitting at SCOTUS for 200 years, but rather that it is a living reflection of their will. Most people just think that congress passes laws and they have to obey them. It's pathetic really, and primarily the result of the centralization of power at the federal level. (And at the state level for those powers the constitution expressly forbids the federal government from having. I'm looking at you drinking age!)
It used to be that the most power rested with the local government and the people would get together and decide how they wanted their community to run. That is why schools are run by local governments. They were set up by the community to teach kids what they thought they should know. Now we see massive pressure from the states to teach a precise curriculum and even more regulations on top of those. (e.g. public school is so damn expensive now because they are required to educate _everyone_ because it's apparently important to force children who are medically retarded through the same mold as those that aren't). Things like these make people feel powerless. The further up the power goes, the less their vote counts, and the more beholden to the higher-ups for funding for the regulations that are forced upon them (e.g. see above).
I was visiting a friend a couple months back and he warned me about a school zone (15MPH speed limit for those who don't know) they had just put in. Nothing on that road had changed in 20+ years, including the fact that it had no sidewalks, nor anything but forest opposite the school. But for some reason the township had recently declared it a school zone and stationed a police officer there. The result being high school students being hit with tickets for $200+ for going only 25MPH or so on a road that normal 35MPH. Nobody liked it, so I hold him to get together with a group of people and tell the commissioners something to the effect of "This is our community and if we don't want a school zone with camped out officer then we better not have one, and sure as hell better not be paying for one". I don't know if that ever happened, but regardless, it hasn't changed.
I've gone a bit far off the path, but the point is these are all things that reasonably intelligent (i.e. not on Jaywalking) people _know_, they just don't _understand_. The challenge is actually getting them to realize that _they_ are the solution and voting for the best turd sandwich every four years is not.
Parent
Occam's razor? (Score:2)
Look for a simpler answer... maybe it's just not ready yet? Sure, everyone can guess and make up bad stuff, but ultimately it's going to get presented and read and voted on. Not that we're necessarily going to like it, but keep your pants on!
--
Educational microcontroller kits for the digital generation! Free electronics videos. [nerdkits.com]
Re:Occam's razor? (Score:5, Insightful)
yes, but it's much easier to arrange a "civil protest" about an action when you know what's going on BEFORE they vote on it.
not to push buttons here, but if there had been enough time prior to the patriot act being voted on, do you think people would have gotten into an uproar?
for this whole democracy thing to work right, we need to have an edumacated populace, we need to know what's going on in enough time to tell our congress-critters how we feel they should represent us.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed, you're not special (Score:2)
If you want to see it in advance then pay like everybody else [riaa.org]
ACTA Now! (Score:3, Funny)
No problem (Score:4, Funny)
FOIA (Score:5, Interesting)
I requested it via FOIA and they danced around it and eventually refused. It'd be nice to see it come out, although I hope this "citizen's group" collectively sent in a few FOIA requests on this one.
Shouldn't even be a question. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, even figuring out who is responsible is a rather murky business. This is the one thing that really bothers me about a lot of international/multinational activities and organizations. Democracy is tenuous enough with the layers of alleged representation within a nation, once you lay a mass of appointed diplomats on top of that, you get something largely opaque and unresponsive. That might be ok if your job is agreeing that starving orphans are tragic; but if you work will end up as law across the developed world, you need to do better than that.(well, actually you don't, and we just have to suck it up; but I meant that in the normative sense)
Re: (Score:2)
Hence the 10th amendment. The larger the government layer, the harder it is to change.
Too bad many people don't care any more.
If California wants to make marijuana legal, they should be able to, since it isn't interstate commerce.
Who wants to bet... (Score:3, Funny)
Stupid citizens (Score:4, Funny)
It wouldn't be secret if you could see it, now would it. Now be patriotic and buy some $16 CDs. Otherwise Bin Laden wins!!!
The lack of MSM reports on this is Damning. (Score:5, Informative)
I just did a google news search, and nobody outside the ars technica/slashdot crowd has stories listed for this.
The fact that such a huge coalition is being ignored by CNN, NBC, ABC, REUTERS, et. al. shows how deeply these news agencies are buried under the thumb of the media cartels.
Positively disgusting.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Erm, they are the media cartels. Obviously, they're going to ignore it.
The internet is a great threat to them, and in more than one way. That's why they want to control it with treaties such as this.
I don't get it- secret laws still exist in the US? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, how can this still be called a "democracy" when those people, who are supposedly holding the power, are not allowed to know what their so-called representatives are doing?
Re:ACTA?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
I like to know what my government is doing behind my back
Screwing you.
Actually the government has gotten quite comfortable screwing you to your face.
Re:ACTA?! (Score:5, Funny)
I never do this, but you've made it too easy: "In Soviet Russia, government likes to know what you are doing behind its back!"
Parent
You'll never get your money back (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:You'll never get your money back (Score:5, Insightful)
If only they would stop at those actions!! Yes, those indeed are what a govt. are for for the most part, yet they seem hell bent on overstepping those powers, in order to restrict the rights and privacy of the citizens from whom their power (supposedly) comes from. They seem to be more interested in locking down society, and protecting corporate issues and interests.
THAT is what we're all wary of and protesting....
Parent
Re:You'll never get your money back (Score:5, Interesting)
"They seem to be more interested in locking down society, and protecting corporate issues and interests."
In fairness, "protecting corporate issues and interests" is and should be one of the most important jobs of government in order to have a well-functioning and fair economy ("fair" in that businesses compete on a reasonably even playing field, consumers have some basic protections, and employers do not exploit their workers too greatly). That being said, it could be argued that rather than having these interests at heart, many of the laws that governments have been passing recently are designed more to enrich corporations and let them take advantage of people (whether consumers or workers).
I mean, sheesh, the recent mortgage meltdown is a perfect example. No income, no job, no asset loans (so-called "ninja" loans)? Why in the hell was this ever legal? Where were the government regulators as mortgage companies were making money off these obviously risky schemes? And now U.S. taxpayers are out >$200 billion dollars in bailouts, hundreds of billions of dollars of investments worldwide have evaporated, and the economy tanks. It's the "Savings and Loan" fiasco all over again.
All we hear from corporations is that they want less regulation of the things that keep them honest, and more regulation (like parts of ACTA) that will hose competitors and consumers. The reality is, they don't really give a !@#$%^! what happens as long as they make their money and don't end up in jail. That's why government needs to be involved in "protecting corporate issues and interests", because in the long/whole economy view, the corporations sure don't care. They only care about *their* individual bottom lines.
Parent
Re:You'll never get your money back (Score:5, Interesting)
Less government regulation + greed of big corporations = our present situation
On a political side note, guess where Mr. Gramm is now...
Yep, he's the economics advisor to John McCain, who doesn't like regulation. Guess what will happen if McCain is elected...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
THAT is what we're all wary of and protesting....
Fine protest, but let's not go overboard with our cynicism and say the government does nothing good ever. Then we look like a bunch of ridiculous, clueless archanists. Plus I come to your house and steal all your stuff and call you a hypocrite if you go to the police.
Re:You'll never get your money back (Score:4, Insightful)
...and they also invested many billions of stolen dollars in communications equipment and computers to suck down your phone calls, locations, internet activity, and generally monitor everything you do from credit card transactions to tracking your number plate with bridge mounted cameras as you drive your car from one side of the country to the other.
While the things you mention are (sort of) positive, the list of negatives has long since outgrown it.
Parent
Re:You'll never get your money back (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And exactly which of these does the Constitution authorize the government to do?
Build Roads
Don't recall reading that job description for the feds. States, maybe.
Build Hospitals
Not even mentioned. Maybe you could stretch Promote the general welfare from the Preamble
Strengthen a Military
Ok, that one is there.
Protection from Criminals
There is no explicit provisions for law enforcement in the Constitution. The 2nd Amendment gives me the ability to defend myself (even from the government)
Educate the Young
Can't find anything in the Constitution about that, meaning it was a state responsibility.
Stop threats against the country
Wel
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Not only that, they stole your money to kill thousands of people in Iraq. And is that money coming back?
Hellooooooooooooooo crisis!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh... I'm thinking if all they wanted was to kill a few thousand people anywhere, it would have cost a lot less than the Billions of dollars spent on the Iraq project
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Umm, technically ours would be a democratic republic. We don't vote on every issue, but we vote on many and the times when we don't vote on the issue we vote for the people that make the decision.
A republic does not require voting, Rome for example appointed people to their senate based purely on age, nothing more. They represented the people but the people weren't allowed to vote about anything.
Just because we're not in the model of the Athenian democracy, doesn't mean we aren't a type of democracy.