Slashdot Log In
Australian State May Give Students Linux Laptops
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Oct 14, 2008 06:02 PM
from the keep-it-cheap dept.
from the keep-it-cheap dept.
Whiteox writes "The Australian Prime Minister's plan to equip high schools with 'one laptop per child' may go open source. Kevin Rudd's $56 million digital revolution will include 'laptops [that will] run on an open source operating system with a suite of open source applications like those packaged under Edubuntu. This would include Open Office for productivity software, Gimp for picture editing and the Firefox internet browser.' So far this has been considered for New South Wales and I think other states may follow."
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Times are different now. (Score:5, Insightful)
That strategy worked great for Apple back in the late 1970s / early 1980s. Get Apples in front of schoolchildren and by the time the IBM PC came along it was too late. Kids were already in love with the Apples, and many "stuck with what they knew." It was the most effective long term marketing move Apple ever could have made, and I doubt they even realized it at the time.
Times have changed, though, and the ability to monopolize the hearts and minds of kids with the only computer they're exposed to is long gone. Many of the kids will already have PCs at home, many will have (or at least have played) X-Boxes, PS3s, Wiis and a host of other devices, including smart phones. I don't think this can have the same social effect that Apple had on us 30 years ago, because the environment is now so different. The novelty won't be there.
Re:Times are different now. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Getting him a Vista laptop will ensure his parents will never have trouble getting him out of bed on school days.
Re:Times are different now. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:4, Insightful)
Your licensed copy of Leopard is surely licensed only for the machine with which it was sold
Awesome! I'm going to order ten of these $129 Macintoshs [apple.com]. Doesn't say what processor they use, but at the price I figure it doesn't matter...
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:4, Insightful)
My nephew is a grade one student at a primary school in Victoria. The school uses macs so he has his heart set on a macbook for christmas.
My son is 7 and in year 2 in a NSW public school and they use Macs as well. He hasn't got his heart set on a Macbook for christmas because the school intends supplying all kids year 2 up with take-home / bring-to-school Macbooks. Years 4,5 and 6 have theirs already.
I can't see what a 7 year old will get out of a mac.
You would if you came to our school's open day, its amazing how creative these kids are on the right equipment. It would not have been my first choice (based on cost), but I have to confess the results speak for themselves. We have an iMac at home (which has left the poor *nix box a little neglected :( ), and our 7 year old taught his mother how to make a podcast on it last week. The little brat even solved a problem his grandmother was having on her macbook (something that needed to be set on the Dock of all places).
I have been trying to steering them towards an eeepc.
Well so long as you can get OSX running on it, he should be able to do his school work on it. It might be a little inconvenient working in GarageBand or iMovie with such a small screen though.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
How about he gets steered towards a playground with some outdoor implements instead?
So kids should be kept away from maths, reading or any other non-physical skills until ... ? I'm sorry, but that's really, truly dumb. This is Australia, there really is no shortage of physical activity / sports development for children. Our problem is getting brains working.
I can't see any valid reason for a 7 year old to have a computer.
If you had spent some time away from the playground and had learnt to read befor
Re:Times are different now. (Score:5, Insightful)
That strategy worked great for Apple back in the late 1970s / early 1980s. Get Apples in front of schoolchildren and by the time the IBM PC came along it was too late. Kids were already in love with the Apples, and many "stuck with what they knew." It was the most effective long term marketing move Apple ever could have made, and I doubt they even realized it at the time.
Times have changed, though, and the ability to monopolize the hearts and minds of kids with the only computer they're exposed to is long gone. Many of the kids will already have PCs at home, many will have (or at least have played) X-Boxes, PS3s, Wiis and a host of other devices, including smart phones. I don't think this can have the same social effect that Apple had on us 30 years ago, because the environment is now so different. The novelty won't be there.
I agree, but there is still something very positive for Linux going on here, and that is that now Microsoft has to run around trying to put out fires like this one, and has less time to spend doing... other things. I know that people here think Microsoft has more money than God, but eventually the moles start popping up faster than you can whack them down, and you have to start losing some.
Australian students may not choose Linux when they leave school, but they will be more likely to have a choice when the time comes.
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:5, Insightful)
Australian students may not choose Linux when they leave school, but they will be more likely to have a choice when the time comes.
I would argue that you are close to right, but not quite on the head of the nail. When the time comes to choose, students will be able to make the choice based on two FAMILIAR products. The windows PC that mum and dad have at home, and the OSS system that they have now become used to at school.
What held me back for such a long time to have one open source install at home? I didn't want to go through the learning process of getting used to it. That won't be an issue for these kids.
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:5, Interesting)
They will not only learn how to use the open source apps, they will also then get on a Windows computer and realize how much it crashes and does quirky things.
One problem with Windows users is they dont consciously realize when something has gone wrong.
They just think 'Oh its crashed' and re-open the app.
They think its just how computers are.
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:5, Informative)
You're missing one critical difference between open source software and Windows: The open source software tends to improve with each release. That can't really be said for Windows.
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:4, Interesting)
It was the most effective long term marketing move Apple ever could have made, and I doubt they even realized it at the time.
Heck yes we knew it, that was the whole and entire point.
Disclaimer:I wasn't in the Apple educational group at the time, but our early MIS development group shared the same (tiny) building with them on Bandley Drive, and there was a little bit of crosstalk.
Parent
Re:Times are different now. (Score:4, Insightful)
The big advantage is students doing assignments can actually do work that is of benefit to the whole of society. There is more to open source software beyond the code (although suitably skilled students will be able to practice directly on open source code), there is usability analysis, documentation, administration, interface design, templates and well as teaching the principles of open source. These principles can then be extended into the preparation of open text books and other teaching resources and the updating of the same.
It is for more satisfying for students to see real world results for the academic activities. These advantages also extend themselves to the teaching staff, where their academic efforts can be directly implemented, not only within the teaching environment but also out into industry.
The long term goal of course should be for the government to create it's own standard Linux distribution, with input from all the public higher education institutions from all of the states, as well as from industry and, also of course also suitably individuals. Naturally enough this should also be done upon an international basis with other countries who also establishing an across the board open software technology infrastructure. The reason of course for a base standard is enable simple no cost compatibility as a basis for any commercial distributions, containing a service and support element.
Of course the only real difference in government distributions or even department of education distributions, is mainly that the computer is delivered in a known, controlled, complete state, ready to go and can readily be returned to that state. Of course it also looks better if all the suitably parochial logos appear in 'all' the right places, it does make a difference.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you would RTFA again you'd read that the mention of RedHat refers to other Australian government systems. The Linux distro under consideration here is Edubuntu.
And I'm quite glad of that.
Re:Times are different now. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
The real reason behind this... (Score:5, Interesting)
NSW secondary school students could be issued with $56 million worth of Linux-based laptops as part of Kevin Rudd's digital education revolution.
The real reason behind this is that the federal government would supply the *hardware*, but that the schools would have to pay for the *software licenses* and the *support*. At least the price for software licenses would be greatly reduced now.
(Despite being a FreeBSD user,) I consider this is a good step forward: Give the children wooden blocks to play with, and they will build bridges with them.
Re:The real reason behind this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Give the children technology that they, and their teachers don't understand and the laptops will end up gathering dust.
I'm all for using OSS, but somebody needs to take responsibility and ensure that teachers and students are properly educated in their use.
on the one side the govt says "hey, we've paid enough, you get free laptops!"
on the other side the schools are saying "this will eat into our already slim budget, more money please!"
net effect: the kids lose out, better off investing the money in better teaching programs than laptops that the students don't even need.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They're giving these laptops to High School students.. the project has already failed.
You are REALLY underestimating them. (Score:5, Insightful)
" Give the children technology that they, and their teachers don't understand and the laptops will end up gathering dust. I'm all for using OSS, but somebody needs to take responsibility and ensure that teachers and students are properly educated in their use.
How difficult is it to use firefox, Openoffice, and Gimp? Seriously? It's not like we are asking them to use LaTeX.
Neither students nor teachers are idiots, despite being treated by idiots for years by Windows software.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Give the children technology that they, and their teachers don't understand and the laptops will end up gathering dust.
My M&P got there comp when I was like 7 and no one knew how to use it. I figured out every aspect of windows 95 in about a year and a half, and it only took two dozen reinstalls of the OS. The problem isn't the teachers not showing the kids how to use them but worrying that the kids will breack them and looking them up.
This actually happened at my high school. My school spent a ton of money to buy laptops for students to use and checkout, and ended up locking them away in a back room and lent one out
Re:The real reason behind this... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not what experience teaches us.
I'm of an age (born in '64) to remember when the pupils were the only ones who really knew how the computer systems worked. It was a time when 'hacking' was a positive term, and those happy few who had access to their systems became the people who have driven this whole technological revolution.
I'm a perfect example. I have exactly zero formal computer training, and am in the process of negotiating a director's position for an online company.
In my experience - and I have applied this method countless times - all you need to do is identify the bright, curious ones and give them time in front of the keyboard. The rest takes care of itself. A cultural effect sets in, in which bragging rights go to the most innovative, and the whole process takes on its own momentum.
I've spent the last 5 years working in a part of the world where academic opportunities are very limited, and even here every single one of my apprentices (only one of whom had any post-secondary experience) has gainful employment in IT.
Courses are all well and good. They serve a definite purpose. Teacher training serves an important role as well. But your premise that any shortfall in this regard will result in systematic failure is demonstrably false.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Support costs are what schools are worried about.. (Score:3, Informative)
Support doesn't come cheap, in Victoria schools share one government provided technician amongst a local cluster of schools and the hours assigned per week are assessed on how many students are in the school. This can be about 10 hours per peek per school amongst 3 to 4 schools per technician. Some area's especially country area's one tech might only have 3 hours per school shared amongst 6 or 7 schools.
Any extra hours they have to pay for another technician out of their own budget.
A few years ago I was hir
Re:The real reason behind this... (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree, unfortunately the Nanny Staters and NIMBYs took the wooden blocks away because they were afraid that the children would hurt each other with them.
We need to get schools back to what they were meant to do, teach kids how to think. I was fortunate enough to finish school before it became more of a babysitting exercise rather than an educational institution (completed Year 12 in 2000). Now days there is more emphasis on children just turning up as opposed to actually learning and benefiting from classes. The problem stems from the bureaucratic mismanagement (much of this is due to excessive "interest group" (churches, PTA and the like) interference) that both measures teachers performances by pointless metrics (Student attendance for one, if a kid turns up to class it doesn't mean they have learned anything), making pointless rules for political correctness/expediency (They got rid of the "F" grade when I was in year 9 because they were afraid it would demoralise students) and placing ridiculous restrictions on teachers (Group A says you cant teach B, or teaching method C must be used) as well as this the Principals are not permitted to tell students or parents that a kid is going to fail or should get a blue collar job, the school must carry them no matter how stupid or lazy they are.
I don't blame teachers, they tend to get a bum rap over this (I also agree that their class sizes are too large, this is the main reason they strike) I met one of my high school English teacher recently (turned out to be a friend of my house mate), he still cares about his students but his job isn't made easier by stupid rules and pointless interference by groups with no idea what they are on about. Many teachers are becoming disaffected and leaving the profession because of this.
FOSS (Linux) is more difficult to use than Windows or Mac and that's exactly what we need, the dumb kids will learn just enough to survive and the smart students (even the average student, Linux isn't that hard to use) will excel and benefit from learning how an operating system works as opposed to memorising where to click to do exercise 3. At this point in time if a high schooler cant pick up and use Ubuntu they aren't destined for a job involving technology anyway. As for primary school it's a great place to start with FOSS, licensing aspects aside, if we teach children to be inquisitive about technology and help them develop the ability to fix their own problems they will get a huge advantage early on. I started playing with computers when I was 6, playing around with DOS when I was 10 but now days Windows is far too easy and just not a challenge for someone who is 10-12, the only answers they can learn from Windows is "reboot", "re-install" or "wait for patch" which isn't learning, it is at best drudgery.
Parent
As a Linux-Savvy Education Student... (Score:5, Interesting)
The biggest opposition to Rudd's "computers in schools" plan has been that he's funding the hardware/software but no the support or training. No doubt this will give more weight to their argument.
Re:As a Linux-Savvy Education Student... (Score:5, Interesting)
The biggest opposition to Rudd's "computers in schools" plan has been that he's funding the hardware/software but no the support or training. No doubt this will give more weight to their argument.
This Australian is not opposed to that. I would love to see Linux laptops in Victorian schools, and I would love to see the kids and teachers in those schools learn and develop their own methods for support and training -- it would be a hugely educational and involving experience, and would help break down the idea that true innovation in computing only comes from above, from the commercial package houses.
I'm willing to volunteer 3rd level support for such myself, but only if they spend some time scurrying about themselves and learning what they can do. Access to a help desk won't really help them learn the basic skills necessary to operate in a society that increasingly depends on densely-packed transistors written on melted sand. Learning the rote behaviour of running common commercial packages may help them in basic knowledge management, but doesn't grant the curious among them visibility under the bonnet.
Example: How would you set up a Wiki under Windows -- build a Sharepoint server and call it a knowledge base (Urk!) or have them set up a Mediawiki LAMP stack? Which one would they learn more from? Which one could they do with the smallest infrastructure spend? (Yes, I know about virtual appliances, it was just an example.)
You've got to give kids clocks to take apart.
Parent
Re:As a Linux-Savvy Education Student... (Score:5, Insightful)
You've got to give kids clocks to take apart.
No, you don't. ;-)
I remember back when I was in maybe the 4th or 5th grade, and I found an old mechanical clock in the house that wasn't being used. I took it apart, studied the pieces, and put it back together so it still worked. I did this several times, to figure out more about how the pieces worked. Then one day, my mother found me with the clock disassembled. She blew up, gave me a lecture about ruining the clock, took it away from me, and disposed of it.
If she had been around when I found the clock, I'd have never been permitted to take it apart, even though it wasn't being used. She didn't believe that kids like me were smart enough to handle something that she couldn't understand, not even when the teachers kept telling her how smart I was.
People don't have to give kids anything that's educational. Many people would prefer not to. The kids might get the idea that they can learn about such things on their own. We wouldn't want kids to get such ideas, would we?
Parent
Don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft will be forthcoming with massive discounts 5 minutes before the deal with RedHat is signed and our government will renege on any promises they made.
It's the traditional "what do you mean we don't get a discount? Well, ya know, Open Source is getting more and more acceptable..."
Unfortunately, the moral imperative for schools to use exclusively Free Software [linux.com] is not even a consideration here.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They already do. I've done support for W.A. schools that were having problems with their internal Exchange server. They were shocked when we discussed the 'real' price for Exchange. They paid less than $1000 for it including CALs and hardware. MS has some serious sweetheart deals for schools and I bet if it came down to providing even cheaper Windows and Office for schools they will do it.
Don't believe it (Score:4, Informative)
The NSW State Govt can't organise a chook raffle let alone something such as equiping kids with open source laptops. It has bigger fish to fry.
Besides, the topic is slightly wrong. Rudd isn't part of an Australian State, his part of the Federal Government. Two different beasts. The State won't 'give', it will 'receive'.
Rudd wants to give lumps of cash to a number of States based on need, spending not just on technology, but more importantly on infrastructure, health and education.
Gives, huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, that would make it so much easier for the schools to support. Everyone with different hardware, operating systems, installed software. And everyone would pay full retail instead of getting the massive discount that a purchase of thousands of laptops gets.
I wonder if Rudd read my email... (Score:3, Interesting)
During his campaign to be elected, he announced this plan, but never really elaborated on it. I took it with a barge-load of salt, as you should anything a politician said, but I still sent him (or rather his office) an email asking him if he was considering open source, and gave rough figures per student of the licensing associated with giving every student a copy of Windows, MS Office, Photoshop; for music students, something like Reason. My figures were retail price ones, as I said in the email, since I'm not aware of the bulk licensing prices companies offer for education, but even a 90% discount doesn't beat free. If he'd spent just $100 on software licensing on each student, it would quickly become a ridiculously large figure to throw around. The Labor government is a little wary of overspending, I would think, since the previous Labor Prime Minister, Paul Keating, plunged the country into recession. In his words "a recession we had to have".
Anyway, I doubt he read my email, or any of the other emails Australian open source fans could have sent. It's pretty much common sense, and if he has a brain, he's probably asked his IT department (not his IT minister :P).
I bet I know why... (Score:3, Interesting)
A. It's cheaper
B. They think nothing runs on Linux thus they can easily stop kids from playing games, chatting etc.
It's nice they're using linux but if my assumptions are correct then that sort of mentality doesn't help in the long run.
Good for them! (Score:3, Interesting)
You know, this is slightly OT, but I think it applies to the bigger picture. My Mom has been hyping prevention.com lately as a nice way to learn about health-related stuff. I just received an email from her today regarding what happened...
In short, prevention.com got hacked somehow, and she got a "nasty rogue-spyware". She spent quite a bit of time cleaning it up. She even warned me not to go there in her email. I wrote a nice reply, stating in effect, thanks for the warning, but we've switched to Linux.
Now I can just imagine how this would play out in a school running a bunch of Windows machines. One teacher hears from another than prevention.com is a good place for health information; teacher recommends it in class, and next thing you know the whole school is owned.
So who is going to clean up the mess? Will it be:
Windows: who is going to clean up the mess?
Headline wrong (Score:5, Funny)
"Australian State Threatens To Give Students Linux Laptops to Force Microsoft to Lower Prices"
There, fixed that for you.
Fools! (Score:5, Insightful)
When everything is free to obtain and upgrade, students learn it all in school, and interfaces don't arbitrarily change every 4 or 5 years, the whole system collapses. There won't even be any big companies to bail out, either.
TFS behind TFA. RTFS - it's good. (Score:3, Informative)
Reading it, seems like they really have a solid grasp of the issues, and have made a cogent and excellent proposal.
Here's hoping it doesn't get subverted or ignored.
Re:To bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
The word is too.
Fear spreading is as popular a past time here in Australia as it is in the rest of the world. Widespread filtering would not only be easily detectable [downforeve...justme.com] and ineffectual but it would also be defeated by public outcry. It won't happen.
Parent
Re:To bad... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Even the Linux kernel (Score:5, Insightful)
"The Australians wanted to ban..."
Australia has a population of 20 million, we have a diverse background, we are not all the same.
Perhaps you could have been more specific and stated that a minority of Australian federal politicians wanted to ban such a thing.
Parent
Re:In the middle of an economic crisis (Score:5, Interesting)
OK, now that's an interesting position. Could you back it up, please? By most traditional measures (GDP per capita, GNI per capita, etc.), Australia is one of the most well-off in the world. By which measure do you assert that it's not a first world country?
Parent
Re:In the middle of an economic crisis (Score:5, Informative)
It depends how the debt was incurred.
If the debt is incurred to fuel capital spending, then yes, the debt helps the nation to grow by increasing our productive capacity.
If the debt is incurred to fuel consumer spending, then it's bad debt.
Debt comes with interest payments. Paying interest on the debt only makes sense if the benefit received by the debt is greater than the interest paid. So it really depends how the debt is used as to whether or not the debt is bad.
As for Australia being a "developing" nation: what crap. Australia is not a "developing nation", according to all international benchmarks. We have one of the highest standards of living, next to the US and Japan.
Australia:
Infant mortality: 4 / 1000
Adult literacy (men): ~99%
Adult literacy (females): ~99%.
Life expectancy (males): 78.9 years
Life expectancy (females): 83.4 years
Per-capita GDP: 37,300 $US.
For truly developing nations, these statistics are much much worse. Take India, for example.
Infant mortality: 33 / 1000
Adult literacy (men): 76%
Adult literacy (females): 65%.
Life expectancy (males): 63.1 years
Life expectancy (females): 66 years
Per-capita GDP: 2,600 $US.
(Yes, I know that Qatar has the highest per-capita GDP, that's largely due to its reserves of oil. An outlier doesn't disqualify the general trend.)
Developing nation? Please. You either don't understand the term or are unqualified to speak about it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, other than ignoring your lack of reading comprehension.. let's discuss your disgusting consumer point of view of credit.
You don't use debt to buy toys.
If I'm a business man and I want to build an office building, it's not because I'd really like some neat place to hang out. It's because I expect to be able to rent the office space and recover my investment. Now, should I save up all my pennies for the next 60 years, buy the office building with cash and then wait 15 years to recover my investment and
Re:In the middle of an economic crisis (Score:4, Informative)
I believe the GP was referring to the Late 80's recession (AKA, the early 90's recession) which like our current economic woes was mainly driven by external economic powers, but much I suspect the GP doesn't have a clue, just a significant political bias.
He also tends to forget that Labour had been in power for 5 terms, not 1 (Hawke government (Labour) was elected in 1983 for the uninitiated). He also forgets that the 1982 recession which was worse than the current or 1992 recession was under the Fraser government (Liberal).
Recessions in Australia are mainly driven by by external stresses(to Australia), our economy is tied to other key economies the US, Japan, Europe to a lesser extent(mostly a leftover from our days in the British Empire) and more recently China, because of this when their economies are up so is ours and when they go down Australia follows suit. Whilst personally I'm against Howard (mostly due to his stance on I.R.) he did do a decent job of the economy (granted in the halcyon days of 2000-2005 it wasn't a difficult job). If Rudd keeps the economy afloat in the current global crisis and by all indications he will, he has done just as good of a job with the economy. Australia has the second most stable banking system in the western world, second only to Canada so we will weather the current crisis but we will probably have to pull the belt in a few notches.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, it could have been Keating's 'Recession we had to have,' but the only one term Labor government with a bad economic record I could think of was Jim Scullin. [wikipedia.org] Two days after taking office, the '29 crash occurred. Not an easy time to govern.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft already did this. The Western Australian Education Department has a deal covering all of their schools. I was shocked when I found out why schools were putting in things like Exchange Server. They paid almost nothing for it. They were paying less than 10% of what I was paying for bulk licenses and they have all of that 'cheap, available' support for the MS products.