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Windows Cheap Enough For $2B Aussie Laptop Deal
Posted by
kdawson
on Fri Dec 12, 2008 06:31 PM
from the if-you-give-it-away dept.
from the if-you-give-it-away dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Windows-based netbooks aren't too expensive to be ruled out of the Aussie government's billion dollar promise to give a laptop to every school-aged child, according to several education departments. The admission follows an earlier report that open source machines based on Ubuntu or Mandriva are the only option to deliver up to four million computers to students for under $2 billion. Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices."
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Submission: Windows cheap enough for $2bn Aussie laptop deal by Anonymous Coward
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Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Insightful)
internet connection for each of those school children.
Re:Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Insightful)
well, since they're netbooks, not desktops, you'd need ubiquitous wireless access in order to match the functionality that would be provided with Ubuntu + OpenOffice. and considering that Australia's one of the few developed countries behind the U.S. in internet infrastructure, that seems very unlikely.
to get the full benefits of the hardware, you pretty much have to go with FOSS or spend a heck of a lot more money.
Parent
Re:Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Funny)
While Australia's wired access in rural areas is lacking, we have pretty much ubiquitous access to fast mobile (wireless) broadband. In fact, you can get 7.2mbit access pretty much everywhere in the country.
That's soon going to be 21mbit, the first large scale roll-out in the world of that particular mobile technology.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You do realize that the United States is over 2.27x the land area of the EU, right? Australia is also over twice as large as the EU.
The point I'm trying to make is that people complain about the lack of "broadband saturation" in the US, but don't seem to realize that South Korea is 32,622 square miles while the US is over 3.7MILLION square miles.
There is a whole hell of a lot of space to cover, lots of people, etc. The major metro areas have things covered, but its terribly difficult to to get everything
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
With respect to the US, this was debunked time and time again.
Yes, US is large. But most of its population is still gathered in very densely populated areas. Regardless, even within those areas, broadband saturation is nowhere near as high as it is in similarly populated areas in Europe, not to mention Korea or Japan.
Furthermore, Canada and a few European countries (such as Finland) also have pretty large swathes of land with little population scattered around villages, yet they somehow manage to get broadb
Re:Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
$500 a "netbook"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Must be some pretty damn good machines to pay $500 a unit on an order of 4 million units.
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:5, Informative)
For millions of units of something made in Taiwan, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to get a reasonable price on it in Australia. At that volume, you can rent your own ship. If you're the Australian government, you shouldn't be paying customs. Etc.
Parent
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, the stuff is made in Taiwan or somewhere else in South East Asia, and yes, that's closer to Australia, than it is to most of the US, but we still pay more for everything.
It's just the way things are. Just about everything is more expensive here.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm an accountant and this is wrong. There is no luxury tax on computers. It is certainly not the majority of cost on computers.
There is no luxury tax. I'll let you work out if it's a taxable supply for GST purposes. Suggest read
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:4, Informative)
Note that the article is about Australia; one Aussie dollar currently equals 66 US cents and after the various middlemen get their markup the value of a computer in AUD is often double its USD value.
(funny how every time the AUD approaches the USD, something happens to the stock market to bring it back down :p)
Parent
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
The Pusher (Score:5, Insightful)
Get off your high horse, kid (Score:3, Interesting)
You only have to mouse over to Walmart.com to see Windows becoming very competitive with Linux in the netbook sector.
It's a familiar story.
The OEM Linux box enters the retail market with bottom-feeder specs.
It is never upgraded - even as the entry-level Windows PC approaches the same price point with hardware that was mid-line or better six months or so back.
Re:The Pusher (Score:5, Funny)
Nah, it'd have to be nicotine.
It's heavily marketed, addictive and once you're hooked, you have to keep spending and spending to get more of the same, though there's been no buzz for decades.
Parent
Educational applications in the cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Educational applications on a web server are nothing new. It's funny, though, that Windows would need them. I have one of these small-cheap-light laptops that cost $350 and is intended for use with Windows "only for web browsing and email". I put Debian on it. There's only one thing I have found that it can't do: build the Linux kernel quickly. It's kind of slow at that, but it works. OpenOffice is no problem, etc.
But with a cloud, you can tie all of those kids into a network that Microsoft will be able to monetize, propogandize, etc.
Bruce
Re:Educational applications in the cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Duh.
Besides, "code you have on the box beats code that might be available".
What's sad here isn't that Mr. Perens comment is, well, common sense, but rather that so many don't see it as so obvious.
Parent
Re:Educational applications in the cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices."
It will keep the costs for the hardware down by hosting the applications elsewhere. Or, to put it another way, they will host education apps online for free (now) so that the required hardware specs are lower, allowing more of the total to be spent on (Microsoft) software used to access the (.NET, Windows-only) server side software (which may not remain free for long after the initial investment on Windows laptops has been made and you are locked in).
Parent
Re:Educational applications in the cloud (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what "monetize" meant :-)
I don't think they're reducing the cost of the hardware, though. $350 USD pays for an Acer Aspire One with 1G RAM and 160G disk at retail. And you can probably get a much better price in a bulk purchase. I think they are budgeting AU $500 per unit. That leaves a lot of money for Microsoft even in the initial purchase.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
But with a cloud, you can tie all of those kids into a network that Microsoft will be able to monetize, propogandize, etc.
Isn't that a bit "conspiracy theorist"? Why can't the explanation be something normal, like Microsoft making sure that every kid in Australia grows up believing that computer == Windows.
What a surprise (Score:5, Interesting)
"We're thinking of using Linux" == "Hey Microsoft, we want a discount!"
Re:What a surprise (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:What a surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:What a surprise (Score:5, Interesting)
Many average computer users haven't even heard of Linux even though they use it every day whether they know it or not. That is slowly changing, but M$ is sure doing everything they can to slow its spread. Thus, every little bit done to spread knowledge of it and improve it as a platform, helps.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The parent was arguing that such companies are acting like drug dealers which is disingenuous...
Why? You have to make an argument. Everyone else can see that they are acting like drug dealers.. giving you your first "hit" for free. So what magical insight do you have that the rest of us are wrong?
My point was, as if anyone cares, that people see a "student edition" of a $500 product for $100 and go "wow, look how cheap that is!" when there are perfectly capable alternatives on the market for much less than even the student price. I actually hear people say with glee "wow, it's great that I can pay
Not really the same. (Score:4, Informative)
This seems like apples and oranges... With Ubuntu (for example) they're storing their files locally, with Windows they're going to be stored on Microsoft's servers somewhere, it's not really a comparable solution.
Oops! (Score:2, Insightful)
I can see a hosted version of Microsoft Office 2007.
The internet (or LAN) goes down, or there's some major power outage, and no-one can do their work or homework.
Save money (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Save money (Score:4, Funny)
Two Laptops Per Child Act (TLPC)
Parent
Re:Save money (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Save money (Score:4, Interesting)
But negative prices are still possible! Microsoft should offer the netbooks with Windows away for free to schools. Otherwise the schools pay the lock-in costs and do product training and platform marketing for the monopolist for free. It is like paying for a galley seat and workout.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The Two Billion Dollar Laptop (Score:4, Funny)
Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course.
I have a feeling that is what the case will be. The teachers who have Windows desktops in their classrooms took one look at Linux and went "No. You give us Windows or the boxes will wind up collecting dust in the back of the classroom." And that was probably was what alot of the Independent Education software vendors said too. "We have thousands of man hours and workers tied up in this Windows only education software. We will not port our software to Linux. Put Windows on your boxes or we will take our business elsewhere."
Re:Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, because ISVs often dictate the terms for government contracts.
Parent
Re:Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:5, Insightful)
QuantumG is correct also look at the quantities. 4m. 4m units you get to set terms to software vendors.
Parent
Re:Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
What the Departments and consultants would be saying is...
So counter those arguments as thus:
1. The teachers that get sent off for Windows "training" come back nearly as clueless as to usage to make it a laugh at best. Just pick your apps, train a few staff, and have them take it from there. You tell the teachers what to click, and they do so. This is NO different than Windows or OSX. Once those boxes are set up and networked, there is VERY little a teacher needs to do that'd require anything above "user" level.
2. Key phrase here is "teachers pulled from the classroom". If they're already teaching, then they've already been trained on whichever system they're using that year. It isn't like they're going to be installing RAID arrays and other hardware. That's usually saved for the hardware vendor. Once again, this is showing someone how to show someone what to click. No worries.
Here it doesn't matter if Windows or Ubuntu get picked as they both serve the purpose well.
Sure, were it not for the MS plan to host this in "the cloud"... {Oooo, do I hate that 2-word phrase. It's a network, ya doofs. Fraggin' buzzword bingo. {/soapbox}}
Internet access isn't cheap in Australia. Unless they're considering local hosting, MS's apps will eat bandwidth for no reason other than to run a word processor. Multiply that by just a few hundred students, and it starts looking ugly for whomever's paying the ISP. Multiply this by the number of students in Australia, and it's downright nasty.
I could care less which OS they use, as long as they're using SOME sense about it.
Parent
What a great alternative (Score:5, Insightful)
Cloud == Cheaper?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Computer != Education (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, it's a tool, but wouldn't that $2 billion be better spent on smaller class sizes, better teachers, etc.?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, I guess you're right.
But are there any studies showing that students having laptops improve their learning to justify such an expense?
Do the students keep the laptops post-graduation?
And, could some overcrowded schools benefit from more teachers to reduce class size? Not all schools, but some.
And, where precisely is this money coming from? The taxpayers, right? Is Australia in a recession like America? Maybe it's time to conserve rather than spend.
Summary incorrect (Score:5, Informative)
to give a laptop to every school-aged child
No, the policy is to give upper high school children in years 9-12 a laptop not "every school-aged child".
I am Australian... (Score:3, Interesting)
Bad idea, Microsoft or not (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone else skeptical at the "cloud computing" bit (Score:3, Interesting)
But he revealed for the first time that cloud-based applications may be used alongside traditionally licensed software to make Microsoft-based tender proposals more attractive and cost-effective.
âoeNot everything has to run [locally] on the device,â said Watson.
âoeWeâ(TM)ll have software that runs on the device but also leverage Live Services and other applications that run in the cloud.â
If it's a common educational application that could be run locally on the machine anyway. How is it cheaper to run it in the cloud? Remember the context here seems to be about the purchase price of the laptop. It's conceivable that MS is reducing support load but I doubt by very much.
The cloud hosted application is going to have an ongoing cost that the local application isn't.
To me this sounds like MS using a different delivery mechanism to justify a discount that would probably anger their other channel partners.
But really it seems much cheaper to simply send an OS image to the laptop maker.
Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi (Score:4, Insightful)
So, I don't need to see a cost analysis, and I definitely don't need to see one from M$ to try to justify their existence to me. Money should go into FOSS through paid development, bounties, and support. That should be what all institutions are geared towards, but instead they are stuck in the past.
"Here's a government contract to make the FOSS equivalent of Reader Rabbit for students for our schools. We are now taking bids."
That's the kind of stuff everyone should be seeing from their governments. The amount of money that every single school district spends on individual purchases for close source software, oftentimes it being the same software over and over and over again for all the licenses, would be enough money to pay developers to program every single piece of open source software schools would ever need all over the entire world a hundred times over, and what's more it would be a long-term investment instead of a flash in the pan. When governments wake up to this, the world will be a better place, but they won't wake up until citizens start waking them.
P.S., of course you can apply it to all other branches of governments, to businesses, and everyone else. The amount of money thrown away for temporary software orgasms is astronomical. More cooperation is needed for the new age of software development.
Parent