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Bad Signs For Blu-ray
Posted by
timothy
on Mon Sep 22, 2008 08:38 PM
from the anguish-languish dept.
from the anguish-languish dept.
Ian Lamont writes "More than six months after HD-DVD gave up the ghost, there are several signs that Sony's rival Blu-ray format is struggling to gain consumer acceptance. According to recent sales data from Nielsen, market share for Blu-ray discs in the U.S. is declining, and Sony and its Blu-ray partners are trying several tactics to boost the format — including free trial discs bundled into magazines and cheap Blu-ray players that cost less than $200."
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Hardware: Toshiba To Halt HD-DVD Production 494 comments
Multiple users have written to tell us that Toshiba is planning to halt production of devices related to HD-DVD. According to Japanese broadcasting network NHK, Toshiba will lose "hundreds of millions of dollars" as the format war finally draws to a close. Regardless, investors are pleased that Toshiba has made the decision to cut its losses. This comes after a last-ditch price cut was unable to prevent Wal-mart from throwing their lot in with Blu-ray, although some sources suggest that Wal-mart was already aware of Toshiba's plans to withdraw from fight.
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Big News (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry Sony... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not about to rebuy my DVD collection or upgrade my TV to enable your HDCP-enabled dreams of complete consumer control.
Also, I could care less about your game console, so you won't be able to use me as a marketing statistic showing the success of Blu-Ray there either.
content content content (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd much rather see a good story with crappy special effects than a crappy story with good special effects.
Yeah, Blu-Ray didn't win. (Score:5, Insightful)
Blu-Ray is better than DVD, but I don't know if it is enough better to survive and conquer.
I got one of those "Trial" discs. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I got one of those "Trial" discs. (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they should consider putting free trial Blu-Ray players in magazines. I'd consider giving them a spin of they did that.
Parent
Re:I got one of those "Trial" discs. (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, so that is what that was. I saw 'Sony' on it, so I ripped it out of the magazine and threw it away. I thought someone rootkitted my magazine!
Parent
Upscaling DVD is good enough.... (Score:5, Insightful)
From one consumer's perspective... (Score:5, Insightful)
* It's my (probably uninformed as heck) impression that not that many movies are out on Blu-Ray. I'm more into documentaries (which would look superb in HD) -- are they available and affordable?
* The players are not cheap -- and judging from the pattern of all similar tech devices, in a year or three, they'll be under $100 or so -- and eventually be downright cheap, once the thrift stores have switched from selling VHS players to DVD players.
* Finally, I have a substantial DVD collection and am in no hurry to re-spend all that money (especially since, until I get used to HD quality, DVDs look fine to me.)
Re:From one consumer's perspective... (Score:5, Funny)
Finally the typical movie buyer speaks up.
Parent
Re:From one consumer's perspective... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Lower the price (Score:5, Insightful)
"Transformers" is special? (Score:5, Funny)
That's nearly as worrying as seeing "Eraser" at the top of the sales chart in the article.
Parent
$200? (Score:5, Informative)
Keep going. I can still get a no-name DVD player for $30, region free as well.
even for free.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I won't install or use a BD system.
on principle.
sony: you lost a LOT of money on people like me who BOYCOTT you for all your various evil ways.
note to industry: upscaled dvd's are JUST FINE on any modern day video player or streamer (I use a 'popcorn hour' box which upscales just fine and is fanless and instant-on).
BD can die for all I care. I'll never fund your poor products with my money.
Blu-ray is the new ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead, maybe Blu-ray turns out to be the next Laserdisc [wikipedia.org].
How 'bout some movies get released first? (Score:5, Informative)
Bought my Blu-Ray player a few weeks ago and was all pumped to pick up a copy of Saving Private Ryan and... nope. Well, I'll just go to Blockbuster and rent something at least... nadda. There was all of 12 movies available, none of them worth renting let alone purchasing. We settled on Fantastic Four I and II. God awful movies. Shamefully bad. I'm surprised they're not churning out movies faster than this; there's barely any titles worth getting that have been released yet.
Look at the titles (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been kind of wanting to get a Blu-Ray machine. But I've been waiting for a title that I can get excited about.
Can anyone recommend a movie - that when you watch it on blu-ray you say "awesome ... that was worth it!"
When I look at the BluRay section - I see movies like "SuperBad" and the latest chick flicks
Who the fuck cares about these on BLURAY - @$30 a pop no less
I figure if the re-master Pink Floyd's Delicate Sound of Thunder from the original AGFA film masters, I will be all over that format. ... but until then .... *yawn*
Why blu-ray is failing (Score:5, Interesting)
Blu-Ray is failing due to pricing vs. benefit.
When it came to DVD, it won over VHS and Laserdisc because on the VHS side, wear and smeared playback and eaten tapes came to an end; take care of a DVD and it will last virtually forever. It won over laserdisc because DVDs are not 12" in diameter and don't need to be swapped one to three times for a movie (yeah it's true some single-layer DVDs might have needed to be flipped but I have never seen one).
However, early adopters got screwed; buyers of early $300+ high-end DVD players were the victims of bad runs, and manufacturers (read:Sony) denied issues existed. I replaced a high-end Sony player with a no-name Apex player, and the Apex player was vastly superior (not to mention region-free and macrovision-free). People who bought into DIVX got equally screwed, by paying as much as or more than a "Basic DVD" player and then losing access to all of their movies.
With Blu-Ray, players are overpriced, and people have to pay more for the same content. Why bother when upsampling DVD players work pretty darn well to make the difference indistinguishable for casual viewers at 720p, noticeable only to pixel peepers? Not only that but a lot of content (old TV shows, older movies, etc.) were either videotaped at NTSC resolution or are on old, grainy film, where encoding at 1080i or 1080p would actually create distractions from actually enjoying the story.
Lastly, what the hell is up with HDCP? If you are an early HDTV adopter and have a DVI flat screen that doesn't talk HDCP or has an early HDCP device which doesn't like to handshake properly with players, you're locked out of the content. You have to turn to either composite, S-video, or if you're lucky, component (if you invested in a large monitor-only device with only DVI and VGA, no YPbPr, you're screwed).
Bring the players down to $125 to $150 or so and limit the Blu-Ray content premium to 10% or so over DVD, and you'll see uptake quickly increase.
It's not the DRM or cost of the players. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the cost of the content. Content is king and always will be. Consumers will pay more for a disc player which offers more features and functionality. They won't pay $30 per blueray disc when they are used to paying $14-20 for decent quality movie on DVD. Add DRM to that and ya it's doomed to a early demise and they were fools for thinking they could succeed so.
I got modded flame-bait last time I said this (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would we buy a blu-ray? We have DVD players in our SUVs, we have hand-held DVD players for $99. We have DVD players/burners in our computers. A DVD is the media we can use where we want to use it.
Blu-Rays are expensive, need an expensive player, and can't be used with all our devices.
The only "advantage" beyond new and shiny bling appeal for techy nerds, is dubiously better picture quality on an HDTV for new movie releases.
It isn't good enough to be worth it.
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Can anyone say DRM?
Yeah, but the masses can't tell you what it stands for.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
And it doesn't matter what they think it stands for. All they have to know is DRM means support headaches and/or getting screwed out of stuff you pay for.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but they don't do they. You're seriously overestimating the average consumer. "Disk go in here? Disk play." That's the mentality. I hang out on a lot of forums that deal with Blu-Ray and I've not seen a single complaint about DRM, because the disks just play, just like DVD (ARCOS protected titles not withstanding.) DRM is irrelevant to 99.999% of Blu-Ray owners because it doesn't effect them.
I think it's more a case of lack of reason to upgrade. When DVD came out I was really excited as it was a huge quality leap, plus you got documentaries, commentary etc... It was a MASSIVE leap, especially if you're a movie geek. DVD to Blu-Ray is a picture and audio upgrade which you can't really notice without a 40"+ TV and a 5.1 surround system. The regular consumer, the idiot who buys "Fullscreen" over widescreen gets very little benefit from Blu-Ray over DVD. All the consumer sees is the movies are more expensive and in pretty blue boxes. I see DVD's flying off the shelves in stores, but I don't think I've yet seen anyone buying a Blu-Ray release. (PS3 titles not withstanding.) This is just from the many hours I spend feeding my DVD habit and browsing.
Blu-Ray will most likely be these decades Laserdisc. A niche market for home theatre geeks.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't just work, though. The people who hang out on the forums aren't the ones who were bitten by HDCP. And you get people asking salespeople about this new fancy high-def disc and get asked if the HDTV they bought 3 years ago has HDCP, they don't know if it does or not, so that scares them off. And many people have HDTV's that don't have HDCP, so there goes a number of people who would buy one, but it just doesn't work. My brother is an example of that... bought a 720p TV a while back, and it only has component inputs. It may technically work, but that's only until ICT gets used more commonly, which the the manufacturers haven't used so far. But that's like trusting Apple to not delete your apps off the store.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
DRM is irrelevant to 99.999% of Blu-Ray owners because it doesn't effect them.
Affect; not effect.
Man, I've seen this so many times recently it's starting to seem rediculous!!
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
To be pedantic, the original poster is technically correct---DRM doesn't cause those people to come into being---but almost certainly was mistaken in his/her word choice.... :-)
Well, I suppose DRM could effect a person if somebody gets so annoyed by it that he throws the DVD player out the window and goes out for a night on the town, meets the perfect girl, then one thing leads to another, and the next thing you know, a DRM-effected child is born, but... thats about as likely as a pig flying without a trebuchet....
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
I hang out on a lot of forums that deal with Blu-Ray and I've not seen a single complaint about DRM, because the disks just play, just like DVD
I bet you have seen PLENTY of complaints about DRM. They just didn't call it that. I am referring to the ridiculously slow boot and load times that have been explained as primarily system and disc DRM validation steps - for example, I just read someone happily proclaim that with the brand new 4.2 firmware for the sony S300 player pirates of the Caribbean loads in 45 seconds. That such a ridiculously slow load time is considered an improvement is indicative of just how big a disconnect there is between the 'blu-ray community' and the rest of the world.
Sure, if blu-ray does survive, those DRM-caused delays will eventually be fixed, I've even heard the new S350 player is a lot better. But my point here is that DRM has been a gigantic pain in the ass for most blu-ray owners due to unexpected side-effects - which is typically the way DRM screws people over every time it is forced on paying customers.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
So we need them to figure out that "Disk go in here, disk maybe play, maybe not. If not, me spend more money and disk maybe play, maybe not. If still not, me lose money and get frustrated and go to thepiratebay.org and now it play. Me write letter to company, tell them they steal from me, I steal from them, we even now."
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
I said All the consumer sees is the movies are more expensive and in pretty blue boxes.
So that's what I just said. Now can you say "Polly want a cracker"?
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
So that's what I just said. Now can you say "Polly want a cracker"?
I don't get it.
Do the crackers come in blue boxes?
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Informative)
It could have to do with new DVD's being $10-$15, where new Blu-Ray discs are $23.99(amazon)-$39.99 (Bestbuy)
Not only are they twice as expensive, but I've stopped buying blu-ray movies because more often than not the quality is almost exactly the same as the DVD version! I just watched The Usual Suspects on blu-ray, and while it might be slightly better, it's definitely not a significant improvement over the standard DVD.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly what it is. I bought a nice new 46" 1080p LCD TV and I couldn't bear to watch any SD content on it because it looked so terrible. I caved and bought a PS3 just to see what a true 1080p picture looked like and it's definitely a huge leap in clarity. Upscaled DVDs are only barely tolerable, I've really been hooked on blu-ray quality. However, I only own 2 blu-ray movies and do not intend to buy another one unless it's something really special or the price is down to 10 bucks.
I now get my movie fix through netflix which ends up costing me 3 bucks for a movie I'd probably only watch once anyway and if I want to see again can just add to my queue. Why pay 25-30 bucks to own it?
The movie industry really struggles with this whole supply and demand concept. There's an abundance of films available on blu-ray but a tiny demand for them. The laws of economics would have you expect the price to come down, but not in the world of the MPAA.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
Indeed, Pounds are the problem---the players start at something like 190 Pounds... and the discs at 15 or so.... :-)
Parent
No one likes $30 / disk (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I think the parent has hit the nail on the head. As an early adopter (PS3 from day one), I've bought a lot of Blue ray disks, but far less than I would have if they didn't ask for $30 each.
I'd be happy to eventually replace my entire DVD collection at $10...$15; but not at thirty. As it is, we only purchase the movies that we like the very best; if it is so-so or just a popcorn flick (light humor, yet-another-sequel, etc.) we don't get it on Blue ray, even if we don't already have it -- we'll just get a DVD.
I really love the hi-res, too (and can see it, too: 204" screen [flickr.com]); but ten disks x $30 is $300, and a hundred is three grand; I have *many* hundreds of DVDs, and there's no way I'm going to replace them just as a matter of course.
As more good movies come out, or let's at least say movies that appeal to my family, we'll slowly build up a considerable collection in the hidef format. But a mass replacement... no. Not until they stop charging so much.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
Well,I can say I have had a couple of folks come into my shop wanting to pick my brain while I fixed their machine,and when I told them they couldn't back up their BD discs like they can their DVDs that was the end of that. Sony needs to realize that folks have kids,and no matter how careful you are kids can tear up a Sherman tank with a toothbrush without even meaning to. It would be one thing if they had made them cartridge style where it is much harder to scratch the thing,but they didn't. And even the most clueless home user has found out from their cousin/brother/uncle how to back up their DVDs so the kids don't accidentally trash them.
And add to that the fact that the economy is likely IMHO to end up in another depression,and the fact that for most of the viewing public a DVD looks fine,plus the cheap price of DVDs and players,and you end up with Blu-Ray slowing sinking. If it wasn't for the PS3 IMHO it would already be toast,but a gaming console isn't going to get the vast majority to switch. So sorry,Sony,but like memory sticks and Minidiscs I'm smelling the whiff of failure. I'm betting the next format will be built for storage first,and movies will come along later. Maybe holodiscs? But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
Parent
No one cares about DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Blu-Ray's problem is that it's a solution in search of a problem. VHS looked lousy (and progressively lossy) and was clunky to use; the DVD solved those problems by being a higher quality digital disk, so it was successful in the market. So... what's the consumer problem with DVDs that Blu-Ray is supposed to solve? "The resolution could be higher," just isn't that compelling a reason to upgrade.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Most consumers know nothing of DRM. They understand however that $35 per movie is a joke.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Its far more likely to be a more simpler reason, like the recession.
...or that Blu-ray offers nothing better for the average consumer than SACD does for sound. It's great for videophiles and those with really expensive setups, but at the end of the day it's the same movie at a higher cost.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
It is, however, a small price to pay for someone who loves to watch movies/listen to decent quality music.
Which does nothing to change the previously posted opinion that Blu-ray is being picked up pretty much by videophiles and nobody else. I know plenty of people who still watch VHS tapes. They're not purchasing them anymore (you can't find VHS and DVD is cheaper now anyways), but for the movies they already had on VHS they're not rebuying them. Those people are never going to pay more for Blu-ray. Hell besides me and my parents I know no one else "in real life" that has an HDTV - and my parents only have one because my mom wanted a small "flat tv" for the bedroom. That said, my dad stumbled across digital HD OTA channels while tuning in a basketball and despite not knowing what the hell HD is he immediately said "Damn that looks good. That's like being on the court." Still, if you asked him if he'd pay extra to watch it that way over standard digital, I seriously doubt he'd pay it.
EVENTUALLY when only HDTV's are available, the players are dirt cheap, and the movies as cheap as (or cheaper) DVD, then I see Blu-ray catching on. It's not going to be a rapid pickup though. Truth be told, I'm surprised that I haven't heard about more cases of pissed off customers buying Blu-ray discs on accident thinking they'd play in a DVD player.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
$3k NZD ~ $2k USD.
That's pretty exorbitant for most people. In my case it's more than an entire paycheck. A few years ago it would be a month's income. I still have a 32" CRT TV that's perfectly functional, why should I spend that much money?
Come back when it's $700.
I guess it's worth it for some, and not for others
I think that's the point we're trying to make - HDTV, right now, is for the 'philes. Half of whom probably get their stuff off the internet. The 'average' consumer is also the one perfectly happy with 128kb mp3s in their IPod. Add in a half dose of aging eyes for the percentage of population above 40 and you're looking at a restricted market.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Agree. The U.S. economy is melting down as we speak, and Sony is worried why people aren't investing in more HDTVs and Blu-ray players and buying all our movies again in another format at $30+ each for only a gain in resolution?
Hell, the economy even has only a little to do with it.
Make players that cost $100 and make the disc premium $1-2 more than standard DVDs ($15 for a new release DVD during the first week of sale at Walmart!) and you can even sell it during the recession.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
Since HD-DVD folded I've bought over 35 HD-DVDs. That is 2x the number of DVDs I owned before purchasing an HD-DVD player.
Why? $10 HD-DVDs for all new releases! It's like every day is labor day! And the picture is amazing! And the sound is fantastic!
Maybe when HD-DVD gets sufficiently abandoned and I want new movies in HD and can bring myself to pay $25-$30 for a movie I might consider picking up a Blu-Ray player. Until then. I'll stick to XBox Live and my handy dandy discount HD machine.
Blu-Ray needs to SLASH their prices if they want me to convert.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Informative)
What about being able to use 1080p with a TV that doesn't have HDMI?
1080p can be sent over component, but no Blu-Ray players do that.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Consumers are for the most part too ignorant to care about dvd based DRM.
Maybe so, but there are at least two movies that I will, as a direct result of DRM, never ever buy or rent: Madagascar and Over The Hedge.
Why? No jokes about their quality, please.
Because another Dreamworks title, Shrek 2, showed trailers for them on the DVD release I bought, and prohibited me from skipping past them.
When I'm in a theatre I expect to have to watch trailers, and often find them entertaining, but not every. single. time I put a disc into my own player at home.
And most other people I know find such things annoying too. Try asking people in the street "what do you think of those copyright messages on DVDs that you can't skip past?". You'll soon see what consumers think of DRM, even if they don't know to call it that. Curiously enough Disney for all their Mickey Mouse Copyright Extension evilness, seems to be the best behaved - their titles rarely if ever forbid you from skipping anything.
UOPs must die.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Put a store-bought BD in your store bought BD player and it bitches about your digital-but-not-HDCP-enough TV and refuses to play. It sees your SPDIF connection to your stereo and pitches a fit. It sees you doing ANYTHING but the Sony-approved Viewing Ritual and it just stops cold. It notices that the disc is using a newer encryption than the player and it tosses a shitfit, demanding that you get on the intertubes and burn a CDR with newer firmware. Average Joe shits a brick and returns his hardware when his MOVIE PLAYER THING tells him to get on the Intertubes. It's not flying.
End users notice that shit, and they're saying no.
Parent
Re:Noone likes DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
I was about to post the same thing. The best thing they can do to drive the Blu-Ray format forward is to release entire seasons on a single Blu-Ray disc for less than the seasons cost new on DVD. They have to do most of the same post-production work anyway, and the incremental cost of building the BRD menus should be fairly small. The dramatically lower cost of producing a single BRD instead of a half dozen DVDs means that they should be able to undercut the DVD sales. When people see a financial incentive to buy a BRD player instead of a DVD player, they will do so....
Parent
Re:please, completely slanted article (Score:5, Insightful)
BluRay is having a tough enough time without slashdot airing repeated hit pieces.
Wait, I thought you said BluRay was doing great?
Parent
Re:Am I the only one? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent