Slashdot Log In
Feds Target "Mongols" Biker Club's Intellectual Property
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Oct 21, 2008 07:49 PM
from the shirt-off-your-back dept.
from the shirt-off-your-back dept.
couchslug writes in with a Reuters account of a Federal raid on a California-based motorcycle club, the Mongols, on charges "ranging from murder and robbery to extortion, money laundering, gun trafficking and drug dealing." The interesting twist is that the authorities are asking the courts to seize the IP of the biker club — specifically, their trademarked name "Mongols." "Federal agents and police in seven states arrested more than 60 members of the Mongols motorcycle gang on Tuesday in a sweep that also targeted for the first time an outlaw group's 'intellectual property,' prosecutors said. The arrests cap a three-year undercover investigation in which US agents posed as gang members and their girlfriends to infiltrate the group, even submitting to polygraph tests administered by the bikers ... [T]he name 'Mongols,' which appears on the gang's arm patch insignia, was trademarked by the group. The indictment seeks a court order outlawing further use of the name, which would allow any police officer 'who sees a Mongol wearing this patch ... to stop that gang member and literally take the jacket right off his back' ..."
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not aware of any law that can prevent a particular logo from appearing on a jacket.
This sounds like pipe dream bullshit.
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Insightful)
I grew up in L.A. and had an integrated social circle that drew from a pretty wide swath of communities. After what happened in '92 there was legally sanctioned trouble for people wearing certain clothes, having certain tattoos etc. I know that someone will inevitably point out that the policies were eventually scaled back, but there was a time in L.A. where law abiding youths of certain appearances/demographics literally had to fear the legally authorized power wielded by police.
IIRC the Rampart scandal grew out of policies put in place after '92...
The world has changed since those days, and I fear that this development is not pipe dream bullshit as you suggest.
On another note: Forgive the Godwin, and correct me if I am wrong, but don't some European countries have criminal penalties for displaying a swastika even in the form of satire or parody?
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Informative)
yes, most prominently, and possibly the only one, germany. swastikas and generally nazi symbols which have glorifying character are forbidden. satire, parody and historical uses are legal. for instance "der untergang" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/) can show swastikas and do the heil hitler thingy. In contrast, the german version of the movie eurotrip (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0356150/) had the scene cut out, where the german kid drew himself a hitler mustache and paced like a nazi.
games like return to castle wolfenstein aren't sold in germany.
also, it's is illegal to deny the holocaust and can lead to imprisonment.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Interesting)
So in trying desperately to distance itself from the Nazi legacy, the German government has effectively become a bunch of Nazis again.
There is broad support for these measures in the German public. It's not like "the government" had imposed an evil ban on those cute little Swastikas. Rather, it is commonly accepted that we need to limit free speech a tiny little bit to weed out the rot from a society that almost caused Europe to collapse barely 70 years ago.
In turn, these symbols have become so socially inacceptable that you can be sure anyone sporting them deserves a night in a cell, at the very least, in any case.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Insightful)
"Tyranny of the majority" is still tyranny and still damages the individual right to free speech or freedom of worship. What about Indians or Hindus living in Germany? They use the swastika as a symbol of their religion, representing both good luck and God's providence. Are they forbidden from the free exercise of their religion? If so then basic rights have been violated.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
How can you even think, let alone write that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry for going ad hominem on you, but the mis-use of the term 'Nazi' for 'grammar nazi' etc is bad enough.
But to imply that by creating legal countermeasures to the glorification and/or denying of the Nazi homocide, crimes, regime and lore, the German government has become the thing they are trying to prevent is so utterly and totally ignorant, stupid, demeaning, wrong and a hundred other bad and worse things it makes me wonder why you are able to remember to breathe.
You are trivializing the Third Reich and its crimes in a way I have only seen from people who are actual neo-Nazis.
The same goes, to quite some extent, to whoever modded you Insightful.
I would appreciate a reply from both you & whoever modded you in a positive way (which would eleminate some mod points in the process).
Parent
Re:How can you even think, let alone write that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well maybe I'm being American-centric, but I would like to believe that the rights that I enjoy are human rights and not American rights.
Here in the US, we often cite fringe groups like the neo nazis and Ku Klux Klan as the prime example of our right to free speech in action. You don't have to like what they have to say, but many of us would defend to their death the right to say it.
The will of the majority to oppress the minority is mob rule, and a particularly onerous form of tyranny.
Parent
Re:How can you even think, let alone write that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Informative)
In principle, the government can nationalize the trademark and after that, enforce against "unauthorized use" by the bikers. It would (should) eventually fail if challenged, because it's after all an end-run around the real problem. I also don't think it would work in the first place.
Also, in principle you're not supposed to be able to get a tasteless or obscene trademark, just like copyright didn't used to apply to banned books. This ought to include gang insignia afaic. But then again, there were a bunch of alcoholic drinks named after Katrina which got trademarked, so I guess the trademark people are asleep just like the patent people.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Funny)
I'd think so, which brings to mind a way to deal with the idiocy if the government chooses to go down that road - simply make it known to the government that you're using the trademark via certified letter, and get as many people as you know to do the same, and let the cycle continue. You'd have be ready for the potential legal consequences (dilution, etc.), since there's a pretty big potential of confusion between the Feds and the Mongols, being that they're both armed gangs with a limited grasp on the concept of freedom and all.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Insightful)
Ummm... no. Really. Tell me you don't believe that, please. "If you can put it on a t-shirt, then it's free speech." isn't just a witty one liner ya know. Trademarks control trade. It may be illegal to sell a t-shirt with someone else's logo on it, but there's no law against wearing one.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you just stupid or what? Selling T-shirts with a logo on them that you are not authorized to use may well be something someone could be sued for. Wearing one of these T-shirts is not trade and therefore Trademark law has nothing to say about it.
For fuck sake, what's wrong with you people?
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Interesting)
I suspect that the first thing the DOJ would do, then, is to get a court order against all members of the Mongols pertaining to the use of the logo. Once the court order is there, they'd have potential reason to move on those seen wearing it.
Of course, this does nothing to stop the Mongols from simply using another insignia, one that does not directly reference the Mongol name. It would spread throughout the organization in weeks, if not days, and the whole exercise would lose its value.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Insightful)
Not really biker's are very protective of their colors and the feds quite literally stole their colors; the humiliation factor is extreme.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Interesting)
that's what i'm thinking - if this even did allow it - a cop to stop a biker and take his colors right there.. i know one thing.. if i was a cop i wouldn't do it - no way in hell would i do that - that is just asking to get shot or stabbed or hunted down and killed after the fact.
no cop in their right mind will do that (sure there are alot that think they are superman but again they are alittle crazy)
i just see this as not ending well
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Funny)
Only one way to find out.
1) Make a passable replica of a major motorcycle gang's insignia.
2) Attach it to a motorcycle jacket and display it proudly in areas where the gang is known to operate.
3) Learn first-hand whether the **AA or underground motorcycle gangs are more aggressive in IP protection.
4) ???
5) Profit. (For your life-insurance beneficiaries.)
Parent
Godwin aside... (Score:5, Funny)
Land of the free, home of the brave ring a bell? We imposed conditions like this on defeated
Dear gods, I find myself agreeing with Twitter. Historic moment.
Somebody hand me a fork...
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Insightful)
No...I gotta go with the other poster, what you wear should give the police NO reason to pull you over, even if a trademarked logo is taken over, that does not prohibit ANYONE from wearing it, nor does it present reasonable cause for pulling someone over.
If pulling someone over just for what they wear or look like is on the books...then we are really in serious trouble in the states.
Parent
Re:Not how trademarks work (Score:5, Insightful)
If you affiliate yourself with the FBI, you are, in fact, affiliating yourself with people KNOWN for illegal acts.
If you affiliate yourself with Microsoft, Exxon, ADM..., you are, in fact, affiliating yourself with people KNOWN for illegal acts.
Parent
Re:Ummm... Yes. Really.... If Disney Can So Can Co (Score:5, Insightful)
1. That's a business, not an individual.
2. It was a permanent public installation, not an item of clothing on a private person.
3. The pictures probably stayed up for weeks while the matter was being resolved. I know of nothing that would have required them to take it down immediately upon Eisener's request.
4. They technically *chose* to take it down to get Disney to drop the suit. They could have taken them to court to drag out the process for months.
If a cop saw a biker wearing the logo, he couldn't do anything there on the spot. He couldn't even issue a citation, because it's not a criminal issue.
Parent
Re:Ummm... Yes. Really.... If Disney Can So Can Co (Score:5, Funny)
Deep breath. Repeat after me.
I admit that I have become powerless over my frustration with those that disagree with me, my anger issues, and my self-perceived impotence regarding my ability to communicate my opinion to the "unenlightened". I acknowledge that calling people retards and swearing will not sway them to my opinion, even if I defend it well. I will not feed the trolls.
FSM, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Hope that helps. Wow.
Parent
Re:Awww, man! There goes the club! (Score:5, Funny)
I'm just amazed that a criminal organization would file a legal TRADEMARK.
Seriously. Were they going to SUE someone for infringement?
Live to sue, sue to live.
Parent
You seem to have hit the nail on the head (Score:5, Informative)
The one most other posters seem to be missing. This is a RICO case. Well, part of RICO is the ability to seize assets related to the criminal enterprise. So for example if a company was a front for money laundering, that company could be seized. Doesn't matter that it was the semi-legit front, since it was a part of the criminal enterprise, it is subject to seizure.
So this isn't an IP issue, that's really a small part. It would be the same thing if they brought down a company under RICO, they'd take the company's name and such. IT all falls under the idea of "You can't profit from your crime."
Parent
Re:You seem to have hit the nail on the head (Score:5, Funny)
Does this mean the trademark will be auctioned off to the public like many other Federally seized assets?
If so, my knitting club is looking for a new logo. Calling ourselves the Mongols would be neat too.
Parent
If government agents can lie and beat a polygraph (Score:5, Insightful)
If police informants can pass and beat a polygraph in a situation where they would be killed on the spot*, then how can the same test when used against people charged with a crime is still admissible as evidence?
*if the common perception of the 1%-ers is to be belived
Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, polygraphs are inadmissable in the US court system.
Parent
Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra (Score:5, Funny)
That's because government liars are professionals.
Parent
Nimrods (Score:5, Insightful)
The indictment seeks a court order outlawing further use of the name, which would allow any police officer 'who sees a Mongol wearing this patch... to stop that gang member and literally take the jacket right off his back'..."
Some douche licker apparently never heard of the right of first sale.
easy fix (Score:5, Interesting)
Get tattoos of their logo/insignia. Get it someplace prominent and call out the cops to try and take it from them. I doubt law enforcement is going to start a collection of biker lampshades.
You mean, like Charles Petzold? (Score:4, Funny)
There's no need to imagine that [wikipedia.org]
Parent
The First Amendment called, it wants itself back (Score:5, Insightful)
Intellectual Property? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Intellectual Property? (Score:5, Funny)
Who? The government? The bikers? BOTH!??!!?
Parent
Civil forfeiture has never been fair... (Score:5, Insightful)
In the US, but this is beyond the pale. There are already laws like RICO which can be used to shut down corrupt organizations.
If this is allowed to set precedent, the Feds will literally be allowed to steal a company's trademark if anyone employed by the company does something illegal. I'm reminded of the Steve Jackson Games fiasco where the Feds seized their computers because one of their employees illegally downloaded a document from AT & T that same was selling for $17. (IIRC)
I seriously doubt that seizing a gang's name is going to deter them the least. At worst, they'll just change their name. This is more about expanding the power of the Federal government than it is about law enforcement. With civil forfeiture laws extending to copyright violations, soon the day will come when police departments will shore up their budgets by seizing computers under the guise of copyright enforcement ("Can you prove that copy of Windows wasn't pirated? I didn't think so...")
Re:Civil forfeiture has never been fair... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
See, there's no slippery slope (Score:5, Insightful)
Law enforcement at its silliest? (Score:4, Funny)
Agent Bob: They've committed murder and robbery to extortion, money laundering, gun trafficking and drug dealing. What are we going to do?
Agent Dan: I have just the thing that will hurt them. Let's seize their name!
Agent Bob: That's brilliant! They're thugs. We all know thugs are thick. Coming up with a new name will be hard on them. They'll spend so much time coming up with a name their crime spree will be over!
Agent Dan: That's why they pay me the big bucks. Lets go get some donuts.
Agent Bob: Don't you think donuts are a little cliche?
Agent Dan: We're not regular cops Bob. Besides we can always change their name to dough-rings.
Agent Bob: That'll confuse people...Renaming things. Brilliant. I'm in awe of your wisdom. You truly are a law enforcement agent of the times.
what's the point? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only will the injunction outlawing the logo will fail spectacularly on 1st amendment grounds, but the very concept of outlawing a gang's insignia will just give the Mongols additional street cred, as they are now more-badass-than-thou.
"Our gang is so bad, our insignia is illegal. The very mention of our name will get you arrested. Think about us and you're committing a crime, brother!" Etc.
It just gives the gang additional appeal to the probable suckers who'd join a criminal biker gang in the first place.
Fashion Police (Score:5, Funny)
Wouldn't this make all law enforcement officers become official Fashion Police?
You guys dont get it. (Score:4, Interesting)
When I was younger and worked in fire/rescue, we were actually trained to NEVER take a bikers jacket off in an emergency without permission from the biker or if he was unconscious his friends. Yes, they were that rabid about it. This is about humiliation, and the cops rubbing salt in the wound, to let them know whose boss. For guys who value independence and strength, its a big deal. HUMILATION, not IP or law enforcement. I for one find this very disturbing. Since when is it the polices job to humiliate and degrade people because of their affiliations? Oh wait.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
Not that it's going to amount to anything - they will still use their name, and they'll likely call themselves "The Original Mongols..." or some such nonesense...
I doubt they'd even go that far to bow the will the courts. They'll probably just keep calling themselves the plain old Mongols, and if someone disagrees or misappropriates the name, they'll probably call themselves the guys who stabbed him to death.
What would really ruin them is for someone to use their logo and release a Mongols brand sugary breakfast cereal with pink, marshmallow motorcycles.
Parent
Let's examine the strategy (Score:5, Funny)
Well, let's hypothetically accept the premise that the police and feds will be able to seize the trademark from the group as though it were originally their own. Then they could at least seek legal action against anyone who produces new jackets with the logo, on the grounds that it would infringe the police's newfound exclusive rights to use the mark to promote their own goods and services. (That's why they wanted the trademark, right? I mean, what else is a trademark good for?)
So this strategy could work, so long as the police pick up the Mongols' trademarked product line and start handing out their own Mongol-branded beatings, robberies, extortion schemes, and contraband sales. (Cue a flood of cynical responses saying that the police would merely have to rebrand their existing product line.) At the very least, they could pay lip service to IP law by selling a few Mongol coffee mugs on CafePress—maybe they could donate the proceeds to those police charities instead of bothering me with telephone solicitations.
Parent
Re:Right...... (Score:5, Informative)
Growing up with bikers (I'm most certainly not, by my dad is), I can say that even the roughest bikers generally would accede to the cops. They'd rather beat the rap on technicalities than have the cops file resisting arrest or failure to stop. The Mongols will fight other gangs, but trying to get into a war with the cops is a losing proposition. In the current case, I'm sure they've already sent out a signal to those still on the streets to hide their affiliations for the moment, and let the legal process go through to determine what happens with the logo. They're criminal, but they're also pragmatic and not stupid.
Parent
Re:Biker Sissies..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent