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White Space Debate Intensifies As Vote Approaches
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:29 AM
from the my-science-can-beat-up-your-science dept.
from the my-science-can-beat-up-your-science dept.
Ars Technica reports that the debate between broadcasters and white space supporters has intensified after each side recently made inflammatory comments and suggested that science would vindicate their position. Several organizations are pushing to delay the upcoming white space vote, in part because it takes place on the same day as the US presidential election. We recently discussed Google's claim that a test of this system was rigged to fail. From Ars:
"The broadcasters contend that adjacent channel interference would be significant even at the 40 mW level proposed by Kevin Martin. In fact, they claim that such a device would interfere with digital television signals when the viewer is 25 miles from the television tower and the whitespace device is 10m or less from the TV set. At 50 miles from the television tower, a whitespace device within 50m from a set could allegedly cause interference. The broadcasters also want several safeguard requirements put on the technology that go beyond the new, lower-power transmission levels."
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Mobile: White Spaces Test "Rigged," Says Google Co-Founder Page 323 comments
Davide Marney writes "As reported by the Washington Post, Google co-founder Larry Page claims that an FCC field test of white space wireless devices was 'rigged' to make the test device fail to detect wireless microphone broadcasts. A Google spokesman explained later that testers had hidden the wireless microphones within the same frequency as local television stations, preventing the test device from detecting them."
[+]
Technology: Why We Need Unlicensed White-Space Broadband Spectrum 179 comments
pgoldtho writes "PC Mag has a story about why the 'white-space' spectrum that will be freed when TV broadcasts switch to digital should be available for unlicensed use. This would allow it to be used to deliver broadband connectivity in rural areas and create a 'third pipe' alternative to the cable/telco duopoly. The FCC is scheduled to vote on this November 4th. The National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) has filed an emergency appeal to block this vote. If the NAB succeeds, the issue will be kicked into next year. Which would mean a new FCC, Congress, and Administration."
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WHITESPACE... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
What's intercal?
>>> At 50 miles from the television tower, a whitespace device within 50m from a set could allegedly cause interference.
Unacceptable. If I'm trying to watch the Phillies match on WPHL-17, the last thing I want is for some brat with an Ipod to start broadcasting over top of 17 (because the Ipod believes it's empty), or neighboring channels 16/18, and instantly block-out my viewing of the World Series.
Or worse, block out the station while a major snowstorm is blasting through, and I
Re: (Score:2)
Whitespace [wikipedia.org]
Intercal [wikipedia.org]
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Here's an interesting article that reveals the Whitespace Coalition's true goals: http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68654 [tvtechnology.com]
* "[i]n a few years a second phase of the DTV transition should get TV off the air."
* "Take TV off the air' in a few years."
* "[O]ver-the-air broadcasts should be replaced entirely by cable, satellite and Internet viewing."
The broadcasters also cited white space proponents' plans to increase their power levels over time. "The FCC proposes to limit devices to 40 milliwatts of power in w
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P.S.
I'm speaking from the point-of-view of the User, not the asshole corporation, but the little innocent citizen who is wondering if he is about to get screwed. I am concerned about losing my ability to watch free television like Heroes, Lost, CSI, Smallville, 24, and of course the local news & weather. Since I live in the densely-populated Northeast, almost every channel is filled. There's only 4 non-adjacent open channels where I live; all the rest are reserved. I don't see how WSDs are going t
Umm... (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps a short explanation of what "white space" is in this context in the summary might be helpful?
Yes I even RTFA to try to figure it out but it already assumed prior knowledge as well.
Re:Umm... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Here's another useful site. It's a discussion forum, but it's filled with lots of RF engineers and hobbyists that are experts in the field.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048951 [avsforum.com]
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Whitespace: (Microsoft, Google, Dell, HP, Intel, Philips, Earthlink, Samsung Electro-Mechanics) bring 10-100 Mb/s internet access over unused TV frequencies. (starting February 2009, US)
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The flaw with that reasoning is that there are NO unused television frequencies. The entire east and west coast is densely-packed and every channel from 2 to 51 is assigned a station. In my area (near Philly) there's only 4 non-adjacent open channels (2,3,4, and 25). That's it. And only one of them is useful for small devices (25).
The only region of the United States that is truly "open" is west of the Mississippi River & east of the California border. There are lots of empty non-assigned channels
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The flaw with that reasoning is that there are NO unused television frequencies. The entire east and west coast is densely-packed and every channel from 2 to 51 is assigned a station. In my area (near Philly) there's only 4 non-adjacent open channels (2,3,4, and 25). That's it. And only one of them is useful for small devices (25).
The only region of the United States that is truly "open" is west of the Mississippi River & east of the California border. There are lots of empty non-assigned channels (mostly 21-51), but very few people live in this area.
In the U.S., the FCC allocates spectrum for, among other things, broadcast television. When the FCC allocates spectrum for television, they do not license adjacent channels in the same geographic market. They also do not license out the same channel to broadcasters in adjacent geographic markets.
Historically, spectrum was licensed this way due to concerns that, within the same geographic market, broadcasts on adjacent channels would bleed into each other and cause interference or that, in rural areas loca
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
>>>they do not license adjacent channels in the same geographic market.
That is true, however the FCC guarantees to broadcasters the use of their designated channel *to be free from interference* of neighboring channels. That is why there is a two channel minimum gap on TV, on FM, and on AM. If stations co-existed side-by-side within the same market, they would interfere with one another. Likewise if a Whitespace Device Broadcast exists side-by-side with a TV broadcast, then the WSD's signal will
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
That is true, however the FCC guarantees to broadcasters the use of their designated channel *to be free from interference* of neighboring channels. That is why there is a two channel minimum gap on TV, on FM, and on AM. If stations co-existed side-by-side within the same market, they would interfere with one another. Likewise if a Whitespace Device Broadcast exists side-by-side with a TV broadcast, then the WSD's signal will "spillover" onto the existing local station, and violate that station's exclusive right to that channel.
IMHO if the FCC would not allow a TV station 16 or 18 to exist adjacent to WPHL-17, then they should not allow a WSD to be there either. The WSD should be blocked from using that entire range: 16, 17, and 18 when in the presence of WPHL. ----- And once you make that assumption, and you examine my local market near Philly, you discover there are only 4 channels that fit the criteria as open (2,3,4,25).
That is certainly a defensible position on this topic.
I don't want to get into a debate over language. I will say, however, that I think your original characterization of the situation (i.e., "there are NO unused television frequencies") is, at best, pretty misleading.
I understand that you want to define the buffer zones as "in use as buffer zones" and I want to define them as "not in use." I think there is room for debate on that topic. But, in a thread where many readers may not be as familiar with this t
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
>>>in a thread where many readers may not be as familiar with this topic
Let's simplify it then. I currently get around 20 channels from local cities and from long-distance cities (Philly, Baltimore, Harrisburg). With Whitespace Devices polluting the TV band, I'll be blocked from watching Philly, Baltimore, or Harrisburg since the WSDs will interfere with long-distance reception. I'll only be able to get the local channels. From circa 20 downto 5. I don't find this acceptable.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As I stated: "The only region of the United States that is truly "open" is west of the Mississippi River & east of the California border. There are lots of empty non-assigned channels (mostly 21-51)..." Using your location of 12+ receivable channels, which also includes 24 guard channels to prevent interference, that still leaves only 15 open channels for internet whitespace devices (approximately 300 Mbit/s total space).
Of course that does absolutely nothing to help those of us on the populous east
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The mountain and plains region represents just 25% of the total U.S. - not a very big potential market for WSDs
Imperial or metric? (Score:3, Interesting)
What's with the mixing of units? Use either 50 miles and 50 yards, or 80 km and 50 m. Mixing imperial and metric units like this, will probably cause http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/25/1449212#the [slashdot.org] test devices to explode.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that. And yes, there is a space between a number and its symbol.
I'm in the United States, and personally I've been using metric units in everyday use for a while now, and I actually sometimes get confused with US customary units. There's no reason that I should have to deal with that crap.
Re:Imperial or metric? (Score:4, Funny)
Pffft. Down with the metric system. We don't need no foreign rulers.
Parent
Technical issues (Score:4, Funny)
As a representative of UltraProfitCom, I must point out that the use of 40 mW transmissions over the whitespace could raise very unpleasant technical issues. For example, it could damage the profitus of the entrenchedplayerus. It may also vastly increase the alternativus that individuals have for data transmission containing dangerous features like competitiveservicus. Left unchecked, these transmissions could also increase the convenientus that people have to do deal with. Clearly, it should not be done.
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Re: (Score:2)
>>> At 50 miles from the television tower, a whitespace device within [160 feet] from a set could cause interference.
Unacceptable. If I'm trying to watch the Phillies match on WPHL-17, the last thing I want is for some brat with an Ipod to start broadcasting over top of 17 (because the Ipod believes it's empty), or neighboring channels 16/18, and instantly block-out my viewing of the World Series. ----- Or worse, block out the station while a major snowstorm is blasting through, and I get cut
Re: (Score:2)
P.S.
I'm speaking from the point-of-view of the User, you know, the little guy. I am concerned about losing the ability to watch free television like Heroes, Lost, CSI, Smallville, 24, and of course the local news & weather. Since I live in the densely-populated Northeast, almost every channel is filled. There's only 3 non-adjacent open channels where I live; I don't see how WSDs are going to operate without causing me to lose 70% of my channels.
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Are you so much of a Karma whore that you just copy and paste your posts as close to the top as you can, multiple times? Keerist!
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>>>remember that TV is soooooo last millennium.
Oh really? Well how are you going to watch Heroes in HD without broadcast television? Certainly not on your SD-quality Iphone, and not on your PC either since nbc.com can't handle 30 million viewerss at 15 gbit/s each (500 gigabit-wide streaming). No website can meet that demand.
There's an old saying... (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, it is politically popular to think about that statement only in the context of bloated, black, cadillac-driving, welfare queens and their giant broods of fatherless criminal children; but such a type, if it exists at all, is chickenshit in terms of real subsidies. Consider rather the broadcasters who have made huge amounts of money, and acquired a great deal of influence, thanks to a government granted monopoly over big chunks of our spectrum.
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Farmers. You forgot the subsidy of western farmers.
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Re: (Score:2, Funny)
I think he was reffering to the screaming.
One side is clearly right (Score:5, Funny)
Tabs
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Chuck Norris.
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In Soviet Russia, your editor has tabs on you.
Broadcasters want more segregation? (Score:3, Funny)
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Because nobody would give a shit if it was called blackspace.
Please, no need to offend people here (Score:2)
I'm not sure I like this "White Spaces Coalition" (Score:2)
The government forced broadcasters to adopt a more limited spectrum, and what we get in return is huge corporations like Google and Microsoft wanting to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Spaces_Coalition]take over the newly freed spectrum[/url] for profit?
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I had recently been posting to a board that uses BBCode, so I got confused. By the time I chose not to hit the preview button, it was already too late :).
Whitespace use (Score:5, Insightful)
Since this is actually my research area, I thought it would be good to give some input here. Part of the controversy is simply due to the language used.
1) "Whitespace" is used in two subtly different senses by people that causes some confusion.
A) From the perspective of the potential new user of the spectrum, a "whitespace" is where the band is clean and so it could be used to deliver relatively high data-rate without having to put out too much transmit power relative to the desired range.
B) From the perspective of the existing user of that spectrum, the above perspective is troubling since it seems to ignore the externalities imposed by interference to others. The existing users' perspective is better captured by the idea of a "spectrum hole" that reflects where a new user could safely transmit without significantly bothering too many existing users. However, spectrum holes are also called "whitespaces" and this causes confusion.
The apparent weasel words "significantly" and "too many" above reflect a real set of engineering-tradeoffs underneath that must be navigated at least partially at the political level.
2) "Interference" is used by people in two different senses and this also causes confusion.
A) Interference is a purely technical concept that describes how performance degrades for a receiver with the introduction of additional signals into the environment. Here also there is some ambiguity because of a distinction between what would necessarily degrade performance even for an ideal or well-engineered receiver and what is feared to degrade the performance of possibly poorly designed or shoddily built receivers.
B) Interference is also an English word that encompasses uses like "you're interfering with my business model by offering a competing service."
Keep this in mind as you read any general articles about this subject. There are real tradeoffs involved in this topic, but sometimes the language used obscures or obfuscates them rather than making them clearer.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
[format fix] Excellent point.
I'm speaking from the point-of-view of the User, who is concerned about losing his ability to watch free television like Heroes, Lost, CSI, Smallville, 24, and of course the local news & weather. I speak of "interference" in terms of lost picture, and "whitespace" as something that doesn't really exist. Since I live in the Northeast, almost every channel is filled. There's only 3 open channels where I live; I don't see how WSDs are going to operate without causing me to
October Surprise! (Score:2)
I guess if the FCC has powers to declare Martial Law, then we all should be worried...
Oh, not THAT November 4th vote. Never mind...
Informed, unbias opinion? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not read a op-ed piece from someone who both knows about electrical engineering and doesn't have a vested (i.e. profit) interest in the outcome one way or the other?
EDN editor Paul Rako [edn.com] wrote this edotiral recently, "White spaces and black hearts" [edn.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Excellent article. Especially this part: "Millions of people in the United States cannot afford cable or satellite TV. They won't be buying a smartphone, and they won't be using Google to find coffee shops selling lattes with just the right amount of foam. These people are living from paycheck to paycheck, and the one respite they get after a day's work may be watching free broadcast television. Just because Google and the cell-phone companies have better lobbyists and more money than the broadcasting ind
Physics (Score:2)
Isn't that rebutted by basic physics? Both signals follow the simple inverse square law. A TV signal 50miles from the tower is 1/4 the signal strength of the signal 25miles, while a device 50m
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Isn't that rebutted by basic physics? Both signals follow the simple inverse square law. A TV signal 50miles from the tower is 1/4 the signal strength of the signal 25miles, while a device 50m from a set is 1/25 the interference of a device 10m from a set.
You obviously don't know much about terrestial radio propagation. Depending on the heights of the transmitting and receiving antennas, the interventing terrain, amount and type of vegetation, it is easily possible that the received signal strength will fall off faster than predicted by a naive application of the inverse square law. Put another way, the inverse square law assumes that the transmitter and receiver antennas are in line of sight of each other, assuming "rabbit ears" on the receiver implies th
Re: (Score:2)
No. The power levels decrease according to an ever-expanding sphere, which is the original power divided by 4*pi*(r^2). Using meters not miles.
By the time a 400,000 watt signal gets to 50 miles (80,000 meters), it's degraded to only ~4 milliwatts. A low-power cellphone or whitespace broadcast is enough to overwhelm that weak signal.
White-Space Devices will destroy FREE television (Score:2)
>>> At 50 miles from the television tower, a whitespace device within [160 feet] from a set could cause interference.
Unacceptable. I'm speaking from the point-of-view of the User, who is concerned about losing his ability to watch free television like Heroes, Lost, CSI, Smallville, Prison Break, and of course the local news & weather. Since I live in the densely-populated Northeast, almost every channel is filled. There's only 4 non-adjacent open channels where I live; I don't see how WSDs a
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Dumbass answer. You use ALL the devices that are available (radio, tv, and if the power still works, internet). To handicap yourself by not using the tv with its visual-images of maps, storms, and tornadoes is stupid. ----- Also many communities in rural Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming don't have any service except the VHF (read: very long-distance) TV. "Use the radio" is not a solution because the radio doesn't exist.
I stand by what I said before: "The last thing I want is for some Ipod to star
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The FCC has a rule that whichever service occupies a range of frequencies has first priority. Television arrived first in the 1930s, and certainly has first priority. The FCC is obligated to protect television transmission from interference of other devices.
If you reject that, consider the distribution of Heroes in HDTV. Which is more efficient?
- Eliminating television, and sending 30,000,000 copies to 30 million viewers via NBC.com?
- Keeping television and sending 200 copies to reach those same viewers
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The above post looks like somebody forgot to take their meds, but just in case, check out "Gaussian fermentation". Googling it will give you upwards of 39,000 hits, but the most prominent are all for biology. It's a real term in papers on yeast or bacterial growth. So yes, once the yeast has fermented it, more of us than ever would like some kool-aid. Please strain it a little and let it age for a few hours.