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Space Is Just a Little Bit Closer Than Expected
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Dec 23, 2008 09:53 AM
from the winter-shrinkage dept.
from the winter-shrinkage dept.
SpuriousLogic points out a BBC story which begins "The upper reaches of Earth's atmosphere are much lower than expected, a US Air Force satellite has found. Currently, the ionosphere — a layer of charged particles that envelopes the planet — is at an altitude of about
420km, some 200km lower than expected. The behaviour of the ionosphere is important because disturbances in its structure can upset satellite communications and radar."
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Wow (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I blame HAARP [google.com] and the Air Force [af.mil]
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
yet, were is the proof that its not the earth that is rising?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Earth is growing! [youtube.com] :o
Oh god, i don't want to headbutt space!
I'm building an underground city, if you want to live, follow me!
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It's "where", you insensitive clod!
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Could even throw in a correlationisnotcausation or maybe vaporware.
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It's hard to use the term "outer space" in anything but jest when Virgin Galactic won't even take you into orbit, but rather will give you only a decent view and a few minutes of weightlessness.
interesting (Score:5, Funny)
Thats a pretty wide margin of error.
Things in the Ionosphere can be closer then they appear.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
2) Redefine the boundary between space and atmosphere
3)
4) Profit!!
So... (Score:2, Funny)
...the current satellites may be working just by chance?
how could we not have already known this? (Score:2, Interesting)
shouldn't we have already known this? this seems like really, really fundamental data.
Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
Chicken Little, after many years of mockery, finally has the last laugh.
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Wow - just think how many other little in-jokes you're missing out on!
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I didn't mean it wasn't a good book (not that I've read it, heard of it, or ever intend to read it), just that there is at least one reference in it that you are missing out on. As for me I'm sure if I reread a few Discworld books that I'd get far more of the jokes and references than I did as a teenager (such as the drop bears in XXXX).
Re:Even More Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
Wow, 420 just took on a whole new significance!
You looking to get hooked up?
I got the new Ionic Chronic gets you so high, you'll feel like you're in outer space.
Parent
below 30MHz (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Yes, HF propagation is affected -
primarily by the dearth of sunspots...
20m was kind of lousy on Sunday, 'tho I did hear a weak ZS6 here in SoFla.
It will be interesting to see if they repeat these ionospheric measurements regularly, say monthly, over the next 2-3 years as the next cycle starts (to start) up... maybe...
Erosion of the ionosphere? (Score:5, Funny)
If this is an actual erosion of the ionosphere, we may be looking at a serious problem. Whereas a hole in the ozone only amounts to a net increase of UV radiation (not that that is any good for humans), a thinner ionosphere means more solar wind removing our planet's atmosphere. Enough erosion and we'll be more barren than Mother Theresa at a Gay Pride festival.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Where's the car? We need cars!
A good bad car analogy is: the ionosphere is like a Trabant, with an engine spewing out all manner of charged particles wrapped in a thin shell at best. And the effect being seen is like a stretch Trabant [today.com], as the thin shell is pulled beyond its limits. A pink one.
A stretch Trabant is also what government-subsidised car makers would result in, resulting in worse ionosphere damage. Perfect!
(Further) Off-topic: here's a heavy-duty Trabi mod: a V8 Trabant [oddrods.co.uk]. They basically had
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I had roughly that thought... "Did they measure its distance wrong the first time, or did it move closer to the surface??"
And if the latter... why? is it a temporary condition as the ionosphere flexes up and down, or a permanent trend? And if the latter, hasn't it moved awfully fast?? Unfortunately we don't have the longterm data to determine it either way... and I mean millions of years worth. A few tens of thousands may be meaningless on the scale of atmosophere/space interactions.
Stands as evid
She's gone from suck to blow! (Score:5, Funny)
Has anyone noticed any large maid-like robotic entities in orbit? More importantly to our future, were there any winnebagos with wings nearby?
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It's 1234
5!!!!!
1-2-3-4-5? That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard of in my life! That's the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What a coincidence! I have that same combination on my luggage!
Say what? (Score:2)
How could we not know the distance to the ionosphere? Isn't it used all the time for its radio-reflecting properties?
-jcr
Global Warming Explanation!!! (Score:2, Funny)
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If it is being compressed, no.
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WTF??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or has this changed from before?
Re:WTF??? (Score:5, Informative)
It's changed. From the fine article: "We are in the depths of a very low solar minimum right now and as a result the ionosphere is lower and less dense than, we believe, at any other time in the history of the space age..."
Parent
For a given value of ionosphere, and of Space (Score:5, Informative)
I've never seen a definition of "space" that was based on the altitude of the ionosphere before. I've never seen a claim that the ionosphere was at a certain altitude, rather than a range with upper and lower bounds before. Most articles I see give about a 500 to 600 km altitude range, such as http://www.dcs.lancs.ac.uk/iono/ionosphere_intro/ [lancs.ac.uk]
Still, that's the ionosphere, not "space", and it's subject to wide variations of many different periods. TFA fails to show whether the result is a permanent feature or simply the measurement they found. It can hardly be anything other than the latter because there have been many, many measurements of the ionosphere, starting with numerous sounding rockets during the International Geophysical Year, 1957-58. TFA fails to account for their one results being at odds with many others.
And by "space" they mean "outer space", ie. outside the earth's atmosphere. If they meant simply "space", it could be the simple Euclidian definition of 3 extent dimensions. As such, we all exist in "space".
Real title. (Score:5, Funny)
And with "just" they may be referring to the justice meaning. As in "Space's Justice is closer than expected". And "bit" might be about the binary unit, as in "it's a 1 closer or 0 closer.". Finally, the term "closer" could be about the baseball relief pitcher who closes the game.
So, for all we know, the title could perfectly mean:
"Euclidean's three extent dimensions are applying justice a little one or an equally little zero, relief pitcher who finishes the game, than expected"
Parent
Re:For a given value of ionosphere, and of Space (Score:4, Informative)
Actually the choice of that wording was determined by the folks helping us with the press conference at AGU. Most folks don't even know what an ionosphere is, so we had to go with something that would at least give the average reader (not the Slashdot reader) a concept to start with. The BBC article did a good job of explaining the science and the concepts once you get past the headline.
There is no universally agreed-upon definition of "where space begins." What we were reporting is that the "transition height" or "topside" in the ionosphere, the altitude where the density of O+ and the density of the light ions (H+ and He+) are equal, is lower than we have ever seen before. Here's a link for the definitions of these layers:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/stp/IONO/ionostru.html [noaa.gov]
Note that above this level we don't have much interference with radio communications, so the practical interest is with the ionosphere below this altitude. Also this site points out that the topside rarely is below 500 km on the nightside, but the C/NOFS results show that it's currently almost always below that height (down to 400 km in places) .
Here's a link to the press release that went with this press conference that gives a bit more information and a nice graphic of the topside measured by the CINDI instrument on C/NOFS.
http://www.utdallas.edu/news/2008/12/16-001.html [utdallas.edu]
(Full disclosure: I am a member of the CINDI-C/NOFS project.)
Parent
GPS (Score:5, Informative)
Re:GPS (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Metric vs Imperial (Score:4, Interesting)
Charades (Score:5, Funny)
This reminds me of a party and a game of charades. To be perverse I decided to have my charade be "ionosphere" figuring I'd stump everybody and wouldn't be bugged anymore about playing.
Wouldn't you know it? Somebody guessed it in 15 seconds. Yeah, I hadn't counted on a radar systems engineer being at the party. :)
Re:Charades (Score:5, Funny)
Your parties sound like a lot of fun. I think I'll stick to snorting blow off of hookers asses.
Parent
Re:Charades (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Atmospheric depth and temperature (Score:5, Informative)
Even textbooks on this topic don't usually spell out the very simple dependence between atmospheric depth and surface temperature: when you warm the Earth, air molecules 'bounce' higher, so the atmosphere gets deeper. When you cool it, they bounce less high. The higher they fly, the slower they move, unintuitively termed 'adiabatic cooling'.
A small percentage of the highest bouncers can be reheated by the Sun near the top of their bounces, and I assume the reported lower ionosphere is more due to a decline in this factor than to any global cooling.
OK.... (Score:3, Funny)
Definition? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
Depending on the situation it's not comfortable for everyone to take notes on a computer. I type very fast (between 90 and 120 wpm depending on how complex the words are), but if I am looking to just jot down information I still prefer pen and paper. It's free form, I can draw lines and make connections quicker, etc. For anything relevant I'll go back and transcribe my notes into text/digital form later. I've met quite a few other people who have similar feelings.
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you know what? He should have taken notes on the computer. *sigh*
Re:Commun ications (Score:5, Funny)
Nonsense. There is no way this will affect communi
[NO CARRIER]
Parent
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This is significant in more than just military satellite operations. The global phone system, international trade, global e-mail, etc. Even radio communications can and will be affected (think shorter range 'skip'). Does anyone have an idea as to the 'why'? TFA is a little sketchy...
Isn't communication to big to fail? I can't wait to read THIS bailout story...
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
(Off topic, but I'll bite) ...or maybe there are a lot of voters that realize that the man has not done anything of substance except run for successively higher offices. Now that he is President, everyone is waiting breathlessly to see if the man can actually do anything besides 'speak well'. Personally, I hope he does something amazing that transforms American society for the better. I'm just not holding my breath until he does.