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Italy May Hold Its Own Pirate Bay Trial

Posted by timothy on Sat May 02, 2009 04:50 PM
from the keeping-up-with-the-johannsens dept.
Government The Courts News
hyanakin writes with an excerpt from TorrentFreak: "Following the Swedish verdict, Italy is now considering starting its own trial against the people involved with The Pirate Bay. This would be the first criminal prosecution against the Pirate Bay 'founders' outside their home country." Funny thing: almost 20 years ago, CD stores in Germany all seemed to be full of bootleg concert CDs pressed in Italy.
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Submission: Italian Pirate Bay Trial in the Making by hyanakin (1545359)
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  • Jurisdiction? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rts008 (812749) <rts008@h[ ]ail.com ['otm' in gap]> on Saturday May 02 2009, @04:55PM (#27801179) Journal

    FTFA:

    According to Sunde's lawyers, one of the issues still under discussion is whether the evidence collected by the Swedish authorities is legal or not. Thus far, the only binding jurisdiction with regard to The Pirate Bay is that the Italian blocking order was absolutely unlawful under criminal law.

    Nevertheless, the entertainment industry is one step ahead and already thinking about how they will divide the booty. Simona Lavagnini, one of the lawyers representing the Italian music industry said that it is not very realistic to expect the defendants to be extradited to Italy, but she believes that fines and a seizure of assets belong to the possibilities.

    Are the Italians going to invade other countries to seize these assets? Does TPB even have any assets in Italyto be seized?

    This sounds like another 'me too' bullshit stunt to me.

    • Re:Jurisdiction? (Score:4, Informative)

      by nurb432 (527695) on Saturday May 02 2009, @06:28PM (#27801651) Homepage Journal

      With the WTO they have some power to reach out of their countries borders.

      Extradition has happened in other cases too.

      its BS if you ask me, but im not running the show.

      • Extradition tends to happen in stupid countries like the UK, where the government doesn't properly protect its citizens. Countries which take their duties to their citizens seriously have blanket non-extradition policies for any reason.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by rts008 (812749)

        Like the ACTA deal?

        You have a point...thanks for the reply.

    • "but she believes that fines and a seizure of assets belong to the possibilities"

      I think by "assets" they mean they hope to find logs of up-loaders.

      From what I hear, each threatened lawsuit against up-loaders is worth about $3500 in the US, the average dollar amount that people have been "settling" for when threatened with a lawsuit. If the record companies/RIAA don't WANT to settle, then a HELL of a lot more.

      Once again folks, it is all about money. And your letting YOUR governments be USED to make it happe

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by rts008 (812749)

        Okay, I am from the USA, so I know how the RIAA works here...but...

        I understand the $3500/suit you mention, but I do not understand how Italy thinks it has a chance at getting any of this money.
        This is what I was talking about when I said it was a 'me too' stunt.
        All 'fluff, smoke, and mirrors' to further an agenda...I do not know enough about Italian politics to be sure...but I'm just suspicious....

        I truly do not understand the connection of how 'each up-loader' is worth *3500 to the Italian Gov't.
        Is Italy

        • Of course they can, if the uploader IP is Italian. They simply look through the logs, find the IPs inside their jurisdiction, and crank out settlement offers by the dozen - profit!

      • Re:Jurisdiction? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Cromac (610264) on Saturday May 02 2009, @06:17PM (#27801601)
        If you were the Italian government wouldn't you rather go after 4 guys running a website than the mafia?

        • Re:Jurisdiction? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Shin-LaC (1333529) on Saturday May 02 2009, @08:08PM (#27802327)
          What the hell?

          1) The government is constantly going after the mafia. There was a high-profile arrest just four days ago, the head of the Bidognetti clan of the camorra (the mafia of Naples).

          2) In Italy, the government runs the police, but it has no control over the judiciary. Zero. Whether there is a Pirate Bay trial in Italy is completely outside the government's control.

          3) The judiciary hasn't said that they want to do such a trial, either. All TFA (and its source [cio.com]) say is that the president of the Italian Music Industry Federation "expects" that the prosecution will seek a trial several months from now. There are no facts, just speculations from the Italian equivalent of the RIAA.

          Are you enjoying being a prejudiced jerk?
          • Isn't it the prosecutor's office who decides if they're going to pursue the case? It doesn't matter if the judiciary doesn't particularly care to try this or that trial.

          • The MafiAA is running around, jurisdiction-shopping wherever they think they can get a favorable verdict, after the fact that they bought off the judge in the Swedish trial was quickly discovered and there's a dead certainty that it'll get overturned on appeal.

            • You have no idea what you're talking about. The army was in fact used against the mafia, in the operation "Vespri Siciliani" from 1992 to 1998. It was an exceptional measure, made necessary by the exceptionally violent strategy of direct opposition to the state adopted by Cosa nostra (the Sicilian mafia) in those years, which culminated in the murder of the magistrates Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino in 1992.

              The army was tasked with strengthening control and surveillance of the Sicilian territory, c

        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by unauthorized (1531059)

          If you were the Italian government wouldn't you rather go after 4 guys running a website than the mafia?

          The Italian government is not the mafia? My view of the world has been shattered!

            • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

              by Anonymous Coward
              This is plain false! ALL the TVs talks good of the premier, except Rai 3. Rete 4 is totally prone. Amongst the major newspapers there are one that is on the opposition side while the others, that need the support of the public money, hence of the government, to survive, are from neutral to completely ass-licking.

            • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

              by mirkob (660121)

              the newspapers aren't widely readed in italy.

              and the majority are much aligned with a political party.

              so even who read something read usually a journal already aligned with his ideas...

              rarely berlusca fans read journals not preaching him, and the majority simply see his TV...

              a sad situation of 30 milion+ gullible ignorants...

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by samriel (1456543)
        The servers, AFAIK last, were spread around the world, with lots of them in Egypt and the Netherlands. There are surely more... I don't doubt that there is at least one server in every Eastern European country.

        /serbian pirates ftw?
        //citation needed

  • Stupidity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 02 2009, @04:56PM (#27801181)

    The problem with people is stupidity, isn't it?

    Watch out Google, you're next!

  • How... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Darkness404 (1287218) on Saturday May 02 2009, @04:59PM (#27801195)
    How can they be tried in Italy? That doesn't make any sense unless the founders A) Lived in Italy B) Had Itallian bank accounts or other finances C) Did (physical) business in Italy with a physical presence.

    Really, this doesn't make any sense.

    • Re:How... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by TheSpoom (715771) * <slashdot@uberm0[ ]et ['0.n' in gap]> on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:03PM (#27801219) Homepage Journal

      Thank you, this is exactly what I was thinking.

      My guess is that they believe that because it happens "over the internet" (duh-duh-DUH!) it's an international issue and that they may be able to get them extradited. Which, y'know, is stupid, but then, that's government for you.

      • Wait. Why is that stupid? The internet is an international entity these days. It seems nuts to maintain individual sovereignty over "pieces" of the net, when everyone has access to almost everything.

        Not that I'm picking on TPB specifically here (which is what I'd normally do), but in principle, it seems like a good idea to lay down (or update) some treaties here.

        • But the net can and will exist in anarchy. You assume that if we take down all regulations regarding the internet, it would become a train wreck. It won't because people are naturally orderly.

          • You assume that if we take down all regulations regarding the internet, it would become a train wreck.

            I hate people telling me what I assume. You're assuming that I was worried about the health of the internet.

            I know that the internet will survive without regulation (at least, with regards to content). I'm talking about impact of the internet on societies (not vice-versa). It makes sense to consider the internet as an international entity for the sake of individual countries trying to uphold their laws with

            • It makes sense to consider the internet as an international entity for the sake of individual countries trying to uphold their laws within their own countries. Otherwise, it's a simple matter for people to move off-shore and continue what they're doing in a country that allows it.

              So basically, in the current state of affairs I don't have to give a shit about what Chinese government thinks of what I post online. You wish to change this. Why?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Swizec (978239)
      Both Italy and Sweden are part of the EU, so maybe there's a way because of that?

      • Re:How... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Darkness404 (1287218) on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:16PM (#27801289)
        But that doesn't make any sense either, because then you could get sued for a situation like this:

        A) Create a website that violates some law in one country that is part of the EU, such as distributing Nazi texts which (as far as I know) is illegal in Germany, but legal in some EU nations such as the UK (where they actually have some shell of freedom of speech)

        B) The website is hosted in a legal country such as the UK and all maintainers of it live, work, and have all financial ties in the UK

        C) Germany brings charges against you

        That just doesn't make any sense (not that most governments do), and seems contrary to having independent nation's laws rather then general EU laws.

        • The way i have always seen it, is if there is a crime, there are two parties involved (in "copyright infringement" anyway).

          TPB is in Sweden, so they done the offence there, the only thing Italy can do IMO is charge the people that copied the "artwork".

          Anything else wouldn't be legal?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by daybot (911557) *

          such as the UK (where they actually have some shell of freedom of speech)

          Clearly you haven't visited us recently :(

    • Of course they can be tried in Italy, if there's a law in Italy saying they can be tried. Whether they'll be there for the trial is another matter, but if convicted while absent, I guess these people would do well to avoid traveling to Italy.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ElectricRook (264648)

        I guess these people would do well to avoid traveling to Italy

        and avoid traveling to anywhere with an extradition treaty with Italy.

        So now do we have to stand trial in each of 190 countries for violating someone's sensibilities on the internet?

    • Really, this doesn't make any sense.

      That's why they will be allowed to use the Chewbacca defense at trial.

    • How can they be tried in Italy? .

      Tried? Wrong verb. It's called a "shakedown."

    • It does make a certain sense. Remember who is in charge in Italy [wikipedia.org]. The guy owns a^Hthe media conglomerate in the country. His company (or was that the government?) has sued Youtube already, and his government becomes hyperactive every time his private interests are in question.

      On the other hand, remember that trials in Italy last for insane amounts of time: it can take decades on average for some kind of trials to reach the end, and at the same time the statutory terms are relatively short and keep running d

      • Therefore, TPB runs quite a low risk.

        Assuming TPB even wants to bother. If a defendant is absent, the trial might actually be quite fast.

    • They can still hold a trial, just because they have no jurisdiction doesn't mean they can't waste money. This is just like the Spamhaus vs Spammer lawsuit.

    • Tell that to Ebay after France blocked it in its DNS for allowing Nazi objects to be sold.

  • Anyone else see a plot for a new action film.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by syousef (465911) on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:01PM (#27801211) Journal

    He was a pirate...his father was a Swedish pirate, his mother an Italian beauty...now he faces his greatest challenge.

    *queue music*

    *fade in* RIAA *fade out*

    *fade in* MPAA *fade out*

    *queue fast drum music*

    *flash quickly in time ot music to lots of scenes of kids downloading crap from their bedrooms and basements*

    Okay maybe not an action film...

  • Pirate Bay is not the same as dimeadozen, zomb, traders den, etc.

  • Those Bootlegs Were Legal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Telephone Sanitizer (989116) on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:18PM (#27801297)

    > Funny thing: almost 20 years ago, CD stores in Germany all
    > seemed to be full of bootleg concert CDs pressed in Italy.

    In fact, it was perfectly legal to record a live concert and sell the recording from Italy if the bootlegger opened a bank account and deposited a royalty for the artist.

    There was even an official stamp issued to those bootleggers who registered with the Italian Authors Society.

  • For when they enter Italy...? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Kidbro (80868) <dibbe@@@linux...nu> on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:23PM (#27801325)

    While it is wholly ridiculous to believe that this would have any real effect on the TBP people while they resided in Sweden, it may or may not give Italian authorities cause to intervene if any of them ever visited Italy.

    If they did, they would not be the first country [wikipedia.org] to do so.

  • LOL @ .it domains (Score:4, Funny)

    by wulfmans (794904) on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:28PM (#27801355)
    I admin an IRC server and the country that is always using the !List command the most is Italy (95% of the time). I am sure you all know that !list is how you trigger a fserv on IRC. What are they looking for you ask? WAREZ !!! It's gotta be a joke they would consider having a trial.

  • Lesson Learned (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nurb432 (527695) on Saturday May 02 2009, @06:29PM (#27801653) Homepage Journal

    While you may be right, its time to take all this back underground.

    What you cant see you cant sue/stop/fight.

  • The verdict is a scandal and destined to be overturned, in addition it's currently non-binding.

    The judge has obvious and close-knit ties to the **AA through intimate lobby groups (composed of small numbers of powerful people), and has committed obvious breaches of swedish judicial procedure allowing "surprise witnesses" by the prosecution.

    The verdict was "leaked" to the media before results were delivered to the defendants, and within minutes these **AA organizations were in the halls of legislation world-w

  • Doesn't the EU have the concept of double jeopardy [wikipedia.org]?

    • Re:Will it be held in Naples? (Score:5, Funny)

      by genner (694963) on Saturday May 02 2009, @05:22PM (#27801317)

      The Neapolitans have a bit of a reputation for taking things that aren't theirs

      Is that how they got 3 diffrent flavours in their ice cream?

        • why 'and/or'? were you concerned the op may have had both sexes at once?
          I swear the indiscriminate use of 'and/or' when 'and' or 'or' is meant is destroying english speakers' comprehension of logic.
          now get the fuck off my lawn.
    • Next time you hear Berlusconi going about how he made Italy great in the world, just reread this discussion and see for yourself what the world really thinks of us.

      In my hereabouts we'd say "'mbuccalasagne".

    • Tyranny...from a government who will have the enviable position of being permitted to suspend civil rights to stop the first two groups from getting out of hand.

    • Well you see in Sweden they were only prosecuted for the copyright infringements in Sweden. There's still all that copyright infringement they committed in Italy to prosecute them for.

      </sarcasm>

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