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Watchmen Watched
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Fri Mar 06, 2009 02:33 PM
from the because-i-can dept.
from the because-i-can dept.
In a blatant attempt to make my movie-going a valid business expense, I'm putting together some notes on Watchmen, and providing a place for you all to discuss it. The first thing I want to say is that I had high hopes: If you ask any serious comic book nerd what the most important book is, they will probably give you one of two answers, and "Watchmen" is the right one. So really Snyder, the director of 300, could only do wrong. Fortunately for me, he was very true to the book: just like 300, many sequences are shot-for-shot from the comics. Some stuff didn't make it, and the new ending has a different meaning to me (one that really isn't as satisfying, but is certainly cleaner). But what I can't say is if it was a good movie or not. I sorta wish I could get an impartial opinion of someone who isn't a nutty fan of the book to tell me how it stands as a movie. I imagine a bit slow, wordy and maybe a bit confusing in parts. I'll leave full reviews to others, but I enjoyed the picture and suspect you will too.
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First post (Score:5, Funny)
SNAPE KILS DUMBL-
wait fuck, nevermind...
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
Hilarious... ly backwards.
Especially since in Dr. Manhattan's case, no one is capable of understanding his point of view. The man just decides to appear on Mars and then wills into existence a huge glass fortress. The level of power necessary to bend time and space to your will like that is staggering.
While, all Rorschach does is complain how he is the only one capable of seeing things as they are and bitching about the state of the world.
Watchmen is interesting because each character represents a facet of human nature.
Parent
Re:First post (Score:5, Insightful)
So you watch porn on the Internet, and accept that humanity only exists because of "huge massive sex scenes" for eternal ages,
but you got problems with sex in a movie?
Don't you see the problem in there?
Double standards at its best.
No, I don't see the problem there. I see that you're jumping to conclusions about the GP's reasons for wanting the sex scene cut down. You're acting like he complained about there being sex in the movie at all.
I don't care if tits get shown in an R-rated film, but I don't want to sit for several minutes watching people pretend to have sex, while listening to Leonard Cohen. That's what this one was, and it detracted from the point of the movie.
Parent
Send me! (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The hamhandedly written plan of Ozymandias. That plot kludge was worse than that time Anakin skywalker killed Amidala because he wanted to save her. LOL WUT?
Re:Send me! (Score:5, Interesting)
The entire book is built off of the brain monster: it is a reference to Starro, the alien starfish that is the first villain the Justice League fights together, and symbolically it represents how Ozymandias's plan is to force the world to band together.
It's also the final and most important element of novel, which is the deconstruction of the superhero genre. The octopus punctuates that deconstruction and really says something clear about super heroes: The monster-of-the-week has appeared, and this time there is no last minute batman plan or newly developed superman power that can stop it. All of the heroes are gone. None of the heroes ever were heroes. Not to mention that Ozymandias, the real villain, has shown himself to be as much a part of the game as the others despite his claims to the contrary. His ends-justify-the-means attitude is just as arrogant as the other Watchmen's.
Understanding the octupus is really, really, important in terms of the book's literary value.
Parent
Re:Send me! (Score:5, Informative)
Something about killing superheroes?
Something about how real masked vigilante would be, the fetichist, oversized-ego, psycho-past, nostalgic underwear-over-pants kind, and the problems they would have if they really existed. Add to that an intrigue and a very good naration, and you have one of the most incredible novel ever written.
Oh and it's 11$ on amazon [amazon.com] (the whole 12 chapter in one tome) in paperback. Make yourself the pleasure of increasing your culture ;)
Parent
Re:Send me! (Score:5, Funny)
Make yourself the pleasure of increasing your culture ;)
You have no change to survive make your time.
Parent
I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:5, Insightful)
You want replies from people who aren't huge fans, but you posted this before most people get off work today. Only a true fan would skip work/school to watch a movie.
I've not read the book (I just finished chapter 1), and I'm seeing it tonight at 9:30; if you still want the viewpoint of a non-obsessed fan, check back tomorrow for my reply to this post.
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:5, Funny)
CmdrTaco doesn't work you insensitive clod.
Parent
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No insanely marked up drinks and popcorn, no talking chicks behind you. No, just you and the movie. And you can go pee if you want to. Just hit 'pause' on VLC.
Yeah, I'm cheap. Or, rather, I don't like to fill the coffers of the local theaters for a sub-par performance (crap focus and crap sound) compared to the flawless exp
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:4, Funny)
You are aware that this is a movie based on a comic book, right?
Parent
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:4, Insightful)
If history show us anything, it's that the Exploiter tribe that usually comes out on top. The Maker tribe is usually too fractured to get together to stand up to the Exploiter tribe, who by their nature form oligarchies and plutocracies. It would take an Atlas Shrugged style walkout by the Makers to stand up to the Exploiters. I find it the height of irony that Rand's polemic has a grass-roots labor action at its heart. All the Libertarians who claim to follow her would do well to remember that.
Parent
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:5, Insightful)
Streched video is the new blinking 00:00. You see it everywhere. Complete horrible retards running TVs in public places, with 4:3 stretched to 16:9. And when you ask them, they did not even notice. Man, those people are either really retarded, or completely blind.
But it proves the point, that when people can do it wrong, they *will*.
Parent
Re:I think you jumped the gun a little. (Score:5, Funny)
I was in Las Vegas recently, and the entire strip was full of fullscreen content stretched to fit widescreens. It seemed like a little metaphor for Las Vegas, really.
Parent
I'm confused... (Score:3, Funny)
Where's the link to TFA?
Re:I'm confused... (Score:5, Informative)
It took some searching, but here's the link to TFA [slashdot.org].
Parent
what's the other one? (Score:3, Interesting)
Graphic novel dilettante here, just curious. Sandman?
Notwatchmen (Score:5, Funny)
I have not read the book, nor seen the movie. It was great! How's that for an untainted opinion?
A good review from a non fanboi (Score:5, Informative)
Roger Ebert [suntimes.com]
Re:A good review from a non fanboi (Score:4, Informative)
Onion AV Club review. [avclub.com]
Massawyrm's review [aintitcool.com] (which I was surprised at.)
Parent
Blue penis (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Blue penis (Score:5, Funny)
sorry, I meant 15 seconds
It is 3:06 PM. You will be making a mistake twelve minutes ago.
Parent
The ending is ruined though (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The ending is ruined though (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:The ending is ruined though (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, both endings are nullified by the _very_ end and the crank file.
Parent
One thing gives me hope (Score:5, Informative)
I've seen a lot of book-to-movie attempts. Some are watchable, like Lord of the Rings. Some are not, like Dune. I can't help myself. I'm nitpicky. Occasionally very nitpicky.
But I'm keeping high hopes that The Watchmen will not be too far off the mark. Why you ask?
Because Kevin Smith liked it. [slashfilm.com]
Let's face it - he's probably a bigger comic book geek than almost all of us. And if it passes muster with him, it may just be great.
Here's my spoiler free rundown (Score:5, Informative)
I read the graphic novel one week and watched the Motion Comic before I saw the movie this morning at 12:00 AM. Here are a few notes:
a. The movie has a long runtime: Watchmen covers a lot of material. I think I left the theatre at 3:00 AM. Make sure you have the endurance to enjoy the entire film.
b. Watchmen can be confusing: The movie can be a bit of a challenge to follow if you are not familiar with the graphic novel. I had to explain parts of the movie to a friend who had never read the comic 10 times, namely information regarding the Minutemen and the Crimestoppers, and the differences between the two generations. The movie does a good job of giving a backstory, but it can be a lot to keep track of.
c. There's nudity. If you read the graphic novel, you know what to expect. Come in with a mature mindset, and you will do a good job. Come with a theatre of teenagers and you will get some silly snickers during some serious scenes. Anyone familiar with the comic should know which of thes I am refering to.
d. Careful if you watched the Watchmen Motion Comic: If your first experience was with the Watchmen Motion Comic, you may be disappointed at some parts. Namely because the WMC will have you expecting voices to be in a certain way. After reading the graphic novel, I watched the WMC and I associated the voice of Dr. Manhattan with my images of him. I was a bit upset hearing the voice actor for Manhattan. He did a good job on his performance, though.
e. Don't come into this expecting 300: This is a crime thriller, not a beat-em-up movie. Sure, it has some good violence and action if that's what one is looking for, however, the real meat and bones is in the storyline and how it deconstructs the superhero concept.
That's about it. They did as good of a job as was possible considering time, budget, and fanboy limitations.
That's about it...
my non fanbooy review. (Score:3, Interesting)
Watchmen non-fan (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Watchmen non-fan (Score:4, Insightful)
Watchmen is like Star Wars. You must experience it at age 18 or younger to appreciate it. Youre just too old. To adults, the characters are unrealistic, the plot is uninteresting, the love story silly, the ending illogical, and the tough guy machismo boring. To kids and teens its nectar of the gods. Its firmly in the realm of nostalgic stuff.
Growing up sucks, eh?
Parent
Faithful representation of source material (Score:3, Insightful)
Ultimately, Watchmen was a faithful representation of the source material. You can read the book and base your opinion of whether or not you will enjoy the movie on your opinion of the book.
I found that the actors portraying Nite Owl II, Rorschach, and Dr. Manhattan were excellent in their roles. There were so many little atmospheric touches, I missed them all (looking through the credits, you'll see acknowledgments and thanks for use of clips from various shows and movies, I didn't see half of those in the movie itself).
Saw it at 12:01 (Score:5, Informative)
Very faithful except for the ending which is still faithful to the idea of the ending.
There were a few scenes in the first hour that were a little loose or slow. that's not it.
Here it is: The movie had a great sound track but a lousy score. The background "emotion" music (that made star wars great) was average. the sound track was the biggest change in the "feel" of the novel to me.
The characters were great except veigt was about 20 pounds too light imho.
There is a lot of stuff there for the fan which is meaningless to someone who hasn't read the comic first. It's not bad- it just doesn't connect emotionally because you see some secondary characters or scenes without the 30 panels of buildup you got in the comic.
Some things were the same as the comic but came across a LOT differently.
Never has so much swinging male private parts been on display. Much more impact when it's swinging around than on the printed page.
The sex scenes had a lot more impact and were more *real* than many sex scenes in many other movies. the awkwardness of it is frequently dropped from "hollywood reality". it was amazing. this added a lot ot the suspension of disbelief for the rest of the film.
The violence was extreme. In the panel, it's one thing-- on the screen- it's disturbing. This is not a kid's movie even if they edit out the nudity.
Was very satisfied- understood the edits and changes that were made. Recommend it- but you'll get more out of it if you read the graphic novel first.
And what is with hendrix being the new SF catch song...
Big ol' SPOILER-laden question (Score:5, Interesting)
So I'm reading some of the reviews/opinions about the movie, and I'm pleased to see that a lot of people seem to get the idea that most of these "superheroes" are just people in costumes. Night Owl has all the gadgets etc., but he doesn't really seem to have the temperament to be a hero. Plus, though he may have all the gadgets and everything, it's safe to say that the Owlship can fly for the same reason that the sky is full of dirigibles and people smoke weird cigarettes with bubbles at the end -- namely, because of Dr. Manhattan.
Dr. Manhattan, we are told, is the only one of the bunch with any superpowers. And, unfortunately for all the rest of the so-called superheroes, he has the ultimate superpower -- basically, control of time and space. Nobody else is ever going to match him. Might as well close the book. The catch, however, is that all this godlike power has made him (quite naturally) detached from humanity.
OK, that's all well and good so far. But I always thought that one of the major, MAJOR themes of the novel revolved around Ozymandias, and the reader's slowly-dawning realization that there might not be only one superhero in the world. There might be two.
Dr. Manhattan may be the world's only literal comic-book superhero, but Ozymandias represents more the Nietzschian "superman" -- a normal human being who has transformed himself into the ultimate that the human race can hope for. He's billed as "the smartest man on Earth," sure -- but the mere fact that he [REDACTED] shows that he's also one of the top physical specimens on Earth, too. That guy was one tough mofo! And by the end of the story, we see that Ozymandias really, actually can catch a bullet in his bare hand; it's no parlor trick.
So the ultimate question is: What does it mean to be a superman?
We've shown that it has distanced Dr. Manhattan from humanity. But it's easy to say "that's only natural, Dr. Manhattan really isn't human anymore," and maybe in fact he is redeemed at the end. But Ozymandias is human, yet his superiority over the rest of us seems to have isolated him in exactly the same way as Dr. Manhattan. Maybe he can't fly to Mars, but think of him sitting in that big chair at the bottom of the world with his cat for company, watching rows of television screens bringing him images of the decay of civilization. Think about what he decides to do about it. Is there humanity in his plan? Is he a hero? A villain? Does he find redemption?
Does the world need supermen? Is there even a place for them?
I always thought these were some of the major themes of Watchmen, but I rarely hear them discussed, and it's not clear to me whether they're represented in the movie. (Are they?)
Just thought I'd throw it out there to give us all something to waste time with on a Friday afternoon. Cheers!
Parent
WATCHMAN READER vs NEWBIE review (Score:3, Insightful)
Looking forward to it (Score:5, Informative)
I haven't seen it yet, but I'm going to see it as soon as I can. I was hoping this wouldn't get screwed up, and signs indicate that it hasn't.
The surest way to screw it up would have been to get Tim Burton [imdb.com] or Paul Verhoeven [imdb.com] to direct it; they don't seem to be able to make a movie based on a book without wanting to change things and put their own fingerprints on it. (I'd love to watch a Starship Troopers [wikipedia.org] movie. Too bad we didn't actually get one [sff.net].)
Everyone agrees that a perfect, 100% faithful adaptation is impossible, unless you do it as a miniseries that is around 12 hours long. The best we can hope for is that the screenwriter and director do a good job of streamlining the story and keeping the important parts intact. Kevin Smith [slashfilm.com] says that this has been done.
I've read several reviews, and they illustrate how impossible it is to walk the tightrope. The movie keeps large chunks of the original dialog intact, and reviews have complained about dialog-heavy, boring long scenes. As a fan of Alan Moore's writing, I'm expecting that I will like or love these "boring" scenes. You can't please everyone.
I read an interview with the director, Zack Snyder. He said the movie studios pushed on him to cut some of the more shocking scenes, such as a rape, and a scene where a pregnant woman gets shot; but the scenes were important to the story, and he got them kept in. In the book, the alienation of Dr. Manhatten is shown visually in the way he stops bothering to wear clothes; this is kept as well. The pirate-themed side story would have made the movie too long... but they filmed it anyway and it will be available as its own feature on DVD.
I read that Zack Snyder gave each actor a copy of the graphic novel, and authorized them to edit their characters' dialog to more closely match the graphic novel. I have real hope that this movie will make me happy as a Watchmen fan.
P.S. Alan Moore is not happy with it, but as far as I can tell, he is automatically not happy with any attempt to turn his work into a movie. You could get Peter Jackson with an unlimited budget, and he still would not be happy. I read that they offered to have him help with the adaptation, but he declined. (Which makes perfect sense... that way he can complain about everything, and no one can say "well, you had the power to change that, why didn't you?")
steveha
The Watchmen the studio wanted (Score:4, Funny)
http://io9.com/5165227/the-version-of-watchmen-the-studio-wanted [io9.com]
Great jumping cats! Someone made an animated "Saturday Morning Watchmen" cartoon and it is seriously funny. It's at the end of this article, but here's a direct link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w [youtube.com]
steveha
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:5, Insightful)
Too much graphic sex and foul language.
It's rated R for a reason, and several plot summaries I've read use words like "dystopian" and "gritty" so it boggles the mind how so many people are upset the movie isn't "family friendly", like they somehow expect an R rated movie to have fluffy bunnies farting rainbows or something.
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:5, Funny)
they somehow expect an R rated movie to have fluffy bunnies farting rainbows or something.
Sooner or later someone will make a highly disturbing R rated movie with bunnies who fart rainbows and you'll eat those words.
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe they're upset because Watchmen, despite its fairly uncompromising storytelling, was not what you would call and R rated comic. With the exception of Manhattan's big blue genitals, sexual references were fairly tame. Violence, while present, was rarely all that graphic, relying more on setting, dialogue and subtlety for it impact rather than outright gore. As to foul language, Watchmen contained it, but I cannot recall the novel being excessively laced with profanities in the manner of, say, Killzone 2 for example.
Regardless, this movie will disappoint fans. It must. As a medium, film is inherently incapable of producing a work with as much breath, depth and contrast as Watchmen, or any other graphic novel, or indeed any other type of novel at all. Movie buffs may disagree with me, but I think it stands to reason that no film of any reasonable length has the time and opportunity to engage with the viewer in the same way that a novel consistently engages with its reader.
A reader can hover over every frame in Watchmen for five minutes if they desire. A reader can dwell over a paragraph for a similar amount of time. A film director simply cannot avail of this kind of engagement in his movie, except in a handful of scenes. It is both a strength and a weakness of film as a medium, but it puts serious limitations on the medium.
People seem to have an irrational desire that their favorite novel/comic/game/whatever be paraded in front of the masses in the form of a movie. I cannot understand this point of view. If something is good, then it doesn't need validation in the form of a Hollywood epic complete with marketing campaigns and happy meal toy lines. If anything, good works should not be subjected to this kind of crass spectacle.
When I see "pundits" debating the "themes and imagery" of the Watchmen movie on TV talk shows, a little piece of my love for the novel will silently die.
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:4, Interesting)
It's rated R for a reason, and several plot summaries I've read use words like "dystopian" and "gritty" so it boggles the mind how so many people are upset the movie isn't "family friendly", like they somehow expect an R rated movie to have fluffy bunnies farting rainbows or something.
The problems with R ratings, is that they're "Adult supervision required", and are usually applied when only one of "graphic sex" "full frontal nudity" "realistic sadism" "exploding bloody messes" "attempted rape" "adult language" or "soft-core porn" exists. _All_ of these exist throughout Watchmen, so it really should have been rated NC-17 "No one under 17, ever". Parents routinely take kids to movies where only one or two of the above things exist because it's not too much trouble to explain to a 12 y/o: "we don't say those words in public" or "that's a bad man, and he'll go to jail". Extra bad: the "heroes" were doing all of the above, not the villains (except in rare cases).
This movie wasn't family-friendly for a lot of families of all-adults. It was not marketed as it should have been (as the gruesome and ugly story it is). Every trailer I saw looked nice; not quite fluffy bunnies farting rainbows, but maybe real, slightly dirty bunnies pooping real rabbit poop. It should have been marketed as vampire bunnies let loose in a movie theater, biting people's heads off. Then parents would know not to bring their kids.
The above was me being objective. The subjective-me is a fan of the book, so I liked the movie, but need to remember not to eat anything while watching it the second time. I agree with Taco that the alterations change the entire meaning of the story.
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:4, Insightful)
As for the movie, yeah it was violent, but I don't think it was unrealistically so, which is kind of the point. Probably the two worst scenes in the entire movie are at the end with the exploded body (not going to say who's cause I don't want to spoil it for anyone), and when that one guy gets his arms cut off, but aside from that it wasn't particularly bad. Personally I feel movies like SAW are much worse in terms of gore and violence. As for the sex and nudity, they did an amazing job of making it realistic which is something that can be said of very few movies out there which is perhaps what so many people are upset over. Everyone seems to want to make sex and nudity out to be some huge deal in one way or another when the reality is much less so, and I think this movie captured that very well.
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:4, Informative)
I believe that rating it R "For Images of a Dog's Head Smashed Open" would keep parents from bringing their kids. Or even just "For Images of a Blue Wang."
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Not very "Family Friendly" either (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right. I see an "R" rating and immediately think "family friendly".
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Too much graphic sex and foul language.
You didn't read the graphic novel, did you?
Given what Watchmen was about and how it was constructed you couldn't make it "family friendly" without destroying it.