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ASCAP Starts To Act Like the RIAA
Posted by
kdawson
on Fri May 15, 2009 10:41 AM
from the rebrand-as-ashattery dept.
from the rebrand-as-ashattery dept.
Scott Lockwood writes "Below Average Dave, a Dr. Demento style parody artist, has been shut down by the ASCAP. This collective, acting as badly as the RIAA, is now attempting to ignore the 2 Live Crew Supreme Court decision that parodies are new derivative works. Just like the RIAA, ASCAP seems intent on misrepresents the law. If you know anyone who can help BA Dave in his plight, please contact him." This artist doesn't have the resources to fight the ASCAP, even though the law is pretty clearly on his side. Anyone at the EFF or the ACLU interested?
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ASCAP? (Score:4, Funny)
More like "ASSHAT".
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:5, Insightful)
If you know anyone who can help BA Dave in his plight, please contact him.
Number of certified lawyers that read Slashdot: 5.
Number who actually give a shit: 1.
Paging Ray Beckerman [slashdot.org] alias NewYorkCountryLawyer.
Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:5, Interesting)
I think if I was this guy, I'd just ignore the lawsuit completely and continue doing what I've always done. Cost: $0.00. Eventually due to my lack of participation the court case would probably be decided in ASCAP's favor, and I'd be fined a couple million dollars. Then I'd start calling folks like CNN, NBC, FOX, PBS to publicize the ridiculous nature of a law that fines average citizens a couple million dollars, just because they sampled a few seconds in a parody. It would embarrass ASCAP, get the attention of Congress, and lead to change.
Another outcome is that the Judge would simply throw-out the case. Again my cost would be $0.00.
And a final outcome is that if this thing drags-on, I might die of old age, then the whole thing is moot.
I wonder how Weird Al Yankovic feels about this case? He too is affected if it's decided parodies/samplings are no longer allowed. Who knows, maybe he's next in line to be sued. Well whatever. Dear ASCAP/RIAA/MPAA/Authors Guild: Fuck ye. And eat a bullet.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Weird Al gets the permission of the people who he is parodying. I believe that this gets around ASCAP.
Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but that's just to be polite. He doesn't have to, which protected him from Coolio when he proceeded with 'Amish Paradise' even though Coolio claimed that he had not granted permission for the parody.
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Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, that's entirely wrong.
If I want to record a parody to the melody of a U2 song (assuming I could find one that has a melody) that makes fun of people who post legal opinions that are completely incorrect but have some sort of weird internal logic, I would be on safe legal ground.
However, being within the law does not protect you from some wealthy organization with a 5-letter name that makes its money off the backs of creative people and has created the artistic equivalent of a Mob protecion racket that decided they were going to engage you in a costly and time-consuming lawsuit in order to show everyone else that they better pay up or, you know, bad things can happen, and you wouldn't want bad things to happen, would you?
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Parodies are not automatically fair use. Re-read the two live crew decision.
Getting permission to make a parody just makes you not be a douchebag.
Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:5, Informative)
I checked out the FAQ on that site. They write (emphasis mine):
Use in public events
We are happy to allow the use of our soundtracks in public places and during events, commercial or not. However, and for your information, we'd like to remind you that you must receive an official agreement from your national music rights management office (MCPS in UK for example) to be legally compliant.
If the event is private and non-commercial, use of soundtracks is, of course, allowed and not restricted.
Other use (Recording/Streaming/Broadcasting...)
Recording rights of our soundtracks (Whether it's on a specific media or not) is not included in the price.
Prior to any recording of one of our soundtracks, it is mandatory to file for a written authorisation. Any use of any of our available tracks, without prior agreement, is a violation in regards of French Law dated July 3-1985 and International Conventions. Be aware that Moral Copyright allows Songwriters/Composers to forbid any re-use of his work if he finds this use doesn't respect the original design.
I'm not sure about that "moral copyright" part (it may relate to jurisdictions outside the US) but the rest matches my understanding: karaoke-versions.com licenses for private, in-home use, but if you want to broadcast it or record it, you need to get additional authorization -- ie. ASCAP or BMI in the US.
This appears to contradict your statement. Do you have a more comprehensive contract with karaoke-versions.com which allows for recording and broadcast?
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think if I was this guy, I'd just ignore the lawsuit completely and continue doing what I've always done. Cost: $0.00. Eventually due to my lack of participation the court case would probably be decided in ASCAP's favor, and I'd be fined a couple million dollars. Then I'd start calling folks like CNN, NBC, FOX, PBS to publicize the ridiculous nature of a law that fines average citizens a couple million dollars, just because they sampled a few seconds in a parody. It would embarrass ASCAP, get the attentio
covers and parodies (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, anyone is allowed to cover or parody any published song without any permission needed so long as they pay the songwritering royalties. In the case of a parody, those royalties are usually split between the original writer and the writer of the parody, in other words Weird Al himself gets a check from ASCAP or BMI (I'm not sure who he is registered with) for performance. As for his CD's those are covered by the mechanical royalty, which is also split in a very similar way by and handled by the Har
Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:4, Insightful)
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Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts (Score:5, Informative)
Here in Chicago, we've got an outfit called Lawyers for the Creative Arts [law-arts.org] that I couldn't recommend more highly. They're really nice folks over there and great lawyers. They have helped me and lots of my friends many times.
If you're a Chicago artist or musician or writer and you need a lawyer, this is a great place to go. Just remember, when you hit it big, do something nice for LCA so they can keep helping "starving" artists. They're really easy to get to, too - just a block from the Chicago Ave. Brown Line stop.
Young artists just starting to do a little business ought to get in touch with them even if they don't think they need a lawyer at the moment. They'll not only help you make sure that you're doing things properly, in a legal sense, but they're great at putting creative people in touch with one another, which, even when it doesn't result in some synergistic result, makes you understand that you're not alone.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
If you know anyone who can help BA Dave in his plight, please contact him.
...if you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe YOU can hire...The A-Team.
Re:Paging Ray Beckerman (Score:4)
You know, grownups can generally think about more than one issue at a time.
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Starting? (Score:5, Informative)
BMI and ASCAP have been thugs for a long time, threatening bar and club owners for licensing agreements for offering live music. For this reason, AS220 [as220.org] in Providence no longer allows musicians to perform any cover songs!
Re:Starting? (Score:5, Interesting)
Not playing covers songs isn't enough for them.
ASCAP in effect shut down a local venue because they had no way to pay the exceptionally high fees they wanted in order to allow live music to be played.
They catered to local, younger musicians playing ORIGINAL music. At first, they let them go because they were playing original music. Then, they came back and said they had to pay the fees.
Why? because someone warming up, tuning up, or whatever may play a few notes that someone else wrote.
This place was for a younger audience, so no alcohol sales. Cover charges were just to keep the place open. They had to close down.
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Re:Starting? (Score:5, Informative)
Get a Sirius/XM business account. The business account includes rights to play in your business.
$25/month last I looked.
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Re:Starting? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? No, seriously, why? It doesn't take money from the people who made the music, it doesn't even deny them CD sales in the way that piracy could theoretically do (though there is no hard evidence that it does).
The reason the stupid copyright law exists in the first place is to benefit the people! It isn't so that you can claim profit from each and every rendition of a song throughout space and time. A cover band playing a professional song will never detract from the professional group's funds, and I defy you to find anything to the contrary.
Explain the moral obligation society has to pay an artist for every single performance of work that he originated, please.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Copyright is a valid and useful thing for a society. The implementation of it can be problematic though and ours is rife with abuses, such as Disney, etc.
I tend to not have a problem paying for actual performances and if I use something someone else owns to do it, paying a fair fee is reasonable. The bigger problem is with licenses for the simple 'sale' of recorded performances. With technology this is now an infinite good; the value of a 'copy' of the performance is so low as to
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Songwriters don't necessarily have CD sales. Songwriters often produce rough demos, or written music, to get their ideas to performing or recording musicians. Not all songwriters are singers.
It's the songwriters, not the original performers, who get these royalties. If I play "Love Potion Number 9" at a paid gig, Leiber and Stoller [wikipedia.org] get the nickel, not The Clovers.
Exactly! And having
Don't mess with the ASCAP (Score:3, Funny)
Once the animal rights people get involved, it's game over.
Starts to?! (Score:5, Informative)
Who's Next? (Score:3, Interesting)
Is This Anything New (Score:5, Interesting)
don't think he'll ASCAPe the charges (Score:3, Interesting)
ASCAP charges both for lyrics and melodies. If you make an instrumental version of a song, you have to pay, and if you create alternative lyrics over that instrumental, I don't think it changes anything. I suspect Dave isn't going to avoid the bill.
He needs to do it himself (Score:3, Informative)
The guy needs to contact the EFF himself. They don't often just pick up cases because they get reported on Slashdot. They might take a look if he contacts them though. It doesn't take much effort to do so: http://www.eff.org/about/contact [eff.org]
Incidentally, the ASCAP has a long history of doing dumb stuff. Back in the mid 1990s they got a lot of public flack for trying to sue the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/communications/ASCAP.html [umkc.edu]
Why Is the Music Industry So Messed Up? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why is it that the music industry seems to be so corrupt? I mean, I'm sure crap goes on in all industries, but the music industry in particular is just blatantly messed up. You've got groups like the RIAA suing their customers, all major venues are pretty much owned by Ticketmaster who add ridiculous fees to shows, while ClearChannel controls the airwaves, and then you have groups like ASCAP/BMI who push licenses on small business owners because the alternative are law suits where the minimal fine (or just lawyers fees alone) would drive them out of business. To make matters worst, the artists who are the base of the industry are frequently getting short end of the stick despite in many cases providing the largest contribution which makes the whole industry possible.
Re:Why Is the Music Industry So Messed Up? (Score:5, Insightful)
What was the quote? Evil is what happens when good people do nothing? Well nobody did anything, so evil happened.
Parent
Re:Why Is the Music Industry So Messed Up? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it that the music industry seems to be so corrupt?
I think that's why it seems worse. Because, to some degree, it is.
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Not all parodies are legit (Score:4, Insightful)
What the Supreme Court said was that if a parody was sufficiently transformative, this would operate in its favour when weighing up the fair use factors. BA Dave is taking the position that because he created a parody, fair use applies, but the Supreme Court stamped on that theory pretty sharply:
"Like a book review quoting the copyrighted material criticized, parody may or may not be fair use, and petitioner's suggestion that any parodic use is presumptively fair has no more justification in law or fact than the equally hopeful claim that any use for news reporting should be presumed fair."
Now I've no idea how transformative BA Dave's parodies are, but this quote should at least show him that he needs to do a little more than cry "parody" if he's going to convince them to back off. Let's hope he can. And let's be grateful he is in the US where parody is given some recognition as a fair use. In the UK, for instance, it's viewed as being no more legitimate than any other form of copying.
Re:Not all parodies are legit (Score:5, Interesting)
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Completely unbiased! (Score:3, Insightful)
What a totally unbiased article summary. It doesn't automatically take a position or make assumptions about anything. I expect a fully qualified, objective discussion to follow presenting both sides in a fair and factually-based light.
okay, they're scumbags, but... (Score:3, Informative)
One distinction I would like to point out is that ASCAP is *not* like the RIAA -- ASCAP actually pays the artists they represent when they force someone to pay up for licensing purposes.
I don't agree with their stance on this particular issue, or their attempts to charge people who are playing radio (stations that have already paid the ASCAP fees).
But it's an important distinction that they are actually defending the rights of artists, even if those rights are overblown. It's a far cry from the RIAA who will never be handing down a penny of the handful of successful lawsuits they've filed.
The reality of the situation is that there is basically no such thing as a Composers' Union in the US, so ASCAP/BMI association is the only way a composer or songwriter can get reimbursed for the use of their works on an international level.
Re:okay, they're scumbags, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Very well put.
I think the zeitgeist on Slashdot is this: we dislike record labels, but we like artists. We want artists to make money directly -- and that's why actions like pirating the music and then "going to a concert" or "buying a t-shirt" are acceptable, as more money goes to the artist.
In short, we like it when artists make money directly, without record labels being involved.
And that's exactly what ASCAP is -- a collective of songwriters and lyricists, creating a revenue stream that's largely untouched by the record labels. It provides artists a way to do what they love and get money for it, even if they're not signed to a label or selling CDs.
We want them to have rights. We simply don't want them to get all uppity and enforce those rights. You artists can have all the rights you want, but if claiming your rights gets in the way of us doing something with your music without paying you -- such as recording a new song using your melody -- then the proper response is to sit down, shut up, and know your place.
It's quite sad, really.
Parent
Re:okay, they're scumbags, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
i think your viewpoint is quite sad.
'we' want artists, authors and others to have a copyright. but those 'we' want this copyright to be reasonable.
that includes reasonable terms on time and reuse restrictions.
really, macaulay probably wasn't the first, but he put it the best, as far as we know. on copyright extension... in 1841.
At present the holder of copyright has the public feeling on his side. Those who invade copyright are regarded as knaves who take the bread out of the mouths of deserving men. Everybody is well pleased to see them restrained by the law, and compelled to refund their ill-gotten gains. No tradesman of good repute will have anything to do with such disgraceful transactions. Pass this law: and that feeling is at an end. Men very different from the present race of piratical booksellers will soon infringe this intolerable monopoly. Great masses of capital will be constantly employed in the violation of the law. Every art will be employed to evade legal pursuit; and the whole nation will be in the plot.
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The Declaratory Judgment Pain in the Ass (Score:4, Informative)
(1) Take down the website. This stops their claim of damages. They probably have no damages anyway.
(2) Study the law of copyright and federal civil procedure. This could take awhile. Find a lawyer to help explain the rough spots to you. Study up very carefully about Rule 11 sanctions, because the SOBs are going to accuse you of Rule 11 violations if they decide to fight you. You may also be able to claim some damages from them for abuse of copyright--research that too.
(3) File a declaratory judgment action in federal court asking that your rights be determined to be fair use, and seek any damages you are entitled to.
(4) The industry must then respond to your lawsuit. This is VERY expensive to them in relationship to the damages that they can recover (probably zero). It is a bad business decision for them to hunt you down. In THEIR best scenario, they'll have to pay at least a few thousand dollars to kick your ass in a situation where they can't get any money out of you. (If you're a mean, vindictive, son of a bitch, you can get your musician-friends to file their own declaratory judgments actions after your case is over).
(5) If they fight you, do your best. If you win, you're a demigod and you get a federal judge ruling that your use is a fair use. If you lose, what the hell--you fought and you made the corporation pay. If they don't fight you, you get your order saying that your use is a fair use. After you file your lawsuit, they may very well be willing to negotiate (a copyright lawyer is very useful here).
(6) You can keep your costs way down if you represent yourself. They have to pay a lawyer a few hundred dollars an hour. That's your edge.
You can torture those sons of bitches if you know the law and if you're in the right. They know that. They'll sing a different tune when faced with litigation costs.
Re:If you are right by the law... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Soap box, ballot box, and jury box have failed. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm never one to stand in the way of a murderous rampage (in fact I stand as far away as possible) but I think perhaps you're overreacting just a bit. Why not just boycott them? No one is forcing you to use them or any of their "properties". Just leave them to drown in their own cultural dregs.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
But then they sue over that too. Loose Loose. I give up. They can have my money. I'm sad now.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
There is no other way out.
I don't know, suicide worked pretty well for me - you should try it!
Re:Soap box, ballot box, and jury box have failed. (Score:4, Funny)
There is no other way out.
I don't know, suicide worked pretty well for me - you should try it!
so you're telling me you created a highly advanced artificial intelligence to respond to /. articles before you killed yourself? and all that from your basement?
and you did not make the code open source? shame!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's easy.
STOP consuming their products. All of them.
Don't pirate (ANY support that keeps their products available is market chumming), don't buy, don't bother.
Re:Soap box, ballot box, and jury box have failed. (Score:5, Insightful)
Then, what should I do if I'm an aspiring musician, and I'd like to draw on some of my cultural heritage -- and yes, copyright lasts so insanely long that we are talking about cultural heritage here -- and these thugs come and sue me?
In other words: What do we do about The Grey Album [wikipedia.org]?
For that matter, as part of my "boycott", should I stop singing Happy Birthday [unhappybirthday.com]?
Fuck no. I will not spend my life avoiding our culture because it happens to be owned by a few corporations. I will continue to assert that this is our culture, not theirs.
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Re:Soap box, ballot box, and jury box have failed. (Score:4, Informative)
Or you could just use this.
http://www.riaaradar.com/ [riaaradar.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Or it could mean that you had better lawyers, or had enough money to pay off the judge, or that the judge was ignorant of the law as it applied to your case, or any number of other things that happen in a courtroom that have nothing to do with whether you're right or wrong.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There sure are, but that's not germain here.
I think you (and others) may have been tripped up by the "the law is pretty clearly on his side" text in the summary. The submitter apparently took what BA Dave wrote at face value.
What BA Dave apparently doesn't understand is that 2Live Crew ended up paying royalties.
Thankfully, you can create a parody without getting permission from the original author -- the law gives us this right, although court cases usually come down to what's defined as a parody.
However (a